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In the truest sense, chivalry the qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
You can be gallant towards men, too. I can, and will practice the above. Quite frankly, I don't care what anyone thinks about it, I'll do what I think is the right thing. When I shave in the morning, I want to be able to look that guy in the eyes and know that I'm a good man. |
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While the choice argument is a strong and highly valid argument, I think that women who wish to be independent in every aspect view this choice as a setback. I'm not going to argue whether they're right or wrong, because I happen to agree that freedom of choice should be the goal of every movement. However, when that choice is seen as a return to days of repression and oppression, I can understand a person's anger at those who would make that choice after all the struggle that went into achieving equality. ------- I had to go back and re-read the OP after sugahbritches' last comment. In it she does state that she does not want to be seen as an equal counterpart to men. Quote:
Yes, there are differences in men and women, I don't think anyone will ever deny that, but to say that women and men should belong to different classes of citizen is what's causing the uproar. Despite all comments to the contrary, this is the impression I was left with from the OP. I think any heated comments after that are expected from those who got the same impression I got. |
There is some dissonance here between this stance:
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Supple Cow: You weren't even a thought when the Feminist movement started, but you come off as extremely militant as I mentioned above. How you can possibly equate reading romance novels with 'keeping women down' is a mystery to me. Some of us actually embrace our womanhood, with all its strengths and weaknesses, and we realize quite fully we are not second class to anyone. Should we be out perfecting GTA just to prove a point? No more then men should take up sewing to do so.... Toaster: There's a reason women's salaries don't match and the reason is the same as the total hours mismatch: We are still the main caregivers of family, the ones who actually have the kids in that family and therefore are staying home to recover and, in the majority of single-parent homes, we're that single parent. Until all that evens out( and since men can't give birth, it won't), then pay will never be totally equal. Chivalry as it pertains to the days and legends of King Arthur are indeed, gone. But there are way too many men here who seem to think that a simple act of courtesy is chivalrous and either therefore won't do it or do it with the thought that women are, in fact, deserving of it, much the same way a child needs his meat cut. Both lines of thought are off the mark. Better to do something because it's the right and respectful thing to do, regardless of gender, age or ability. |
I don't think anyone advocating chivalry is actually referring to the historical nitty-gritty oppressive aspects of it. But rather, I think they are espousing the positive courteous aspects of it. All the stuff that Seaver mentioned reminds me of the Marine Corps. In that sense, how could chivalry be viewed as a bad thing? So, maybe we need to see chivalry in a modern context as opposed to this archaic form that no one is advocating but that naysayers keep going back to.
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Does the latter somehow make me less feminist? I somehow think not. Actually, most heroines in recent romances, even ones set in historical circumstances, give as good as they get. Does it make me respect and expect common courtesy less? No. Do I believe in chivalry? I think it's an outdated concept that most people, whose knowledge of the time from which chivalry comes is romantic at best, usually confuse with the idea and expectations of common courtesy. A side note: as for my belief in feminism, I think it is about choice, and I am pretty militant compared to most of my friends. Yet, when the time comes, I won't regret the choice to stay home and nurture my children--because it was just that, a choice. To clarify, I'm using feminism in the sense that Charlatan used it above. |
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What I meant to say was, that there seems to be this line of reasoning that states 'women want everything equal, so why should we be 'chivalrous', when, in fact, nothing CAN be equal given those points. Does this mean we garner more respect and chivalry because of it? Not really, yet I find the young male respondents making the assumption that we are saying just that, while stating that we're 'equals' so no expectations of chivalry are legit. So, yes, I agree that we are NOT equals, but your post seemed to come across with an anger about it. My apologies if it was misread. Damn train of thought derailed again: I'd also like to point out that, just because some women find doing for their men to be satisfying to them does not mean anyone has the right to knock them for it. If a woman is happy catering and the man in her life does his part, who are we to criticize that? The only time anyone should take issue with it is if it's one-sided or bordering on abuse. I don't feel that just because any woman likes to cook for him, scrub his back or whatever, she's making herself less a human being. When something works, everyone else should just back off and worry about themselves. |
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As I mentioned before, I think we all agree that courtesy is important. Being considerate to all people has nothing to do with women's lib or chivalry. It has to do with being human and a friend. |
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First, there's maternity leave, generally 2-4 weeks prior to delivery, 6 weeks after. So right there, you're talking 8 weeks less per year in the workforce. While parenthood is, ideally a choice, it isn't always. Single parenthood: A disproportionate amount of single parents are women. This isn't always a choice and the jobs they take to support their families is not always an optimum choice as well and many take two or more lower paying jobs due to their personal economics and situations. |
I blame Elanor of Aquitaine for the confusion. Befor she got involved, chivalry was more of a devotion to God than a devotion to women.
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"Accidents" don't make pregnancy compulsory; they are the consequences of making the choice to risk pregnancy (especially if not being careful) and engaging in sex. But: Unless a woman spits out a kid every single year, this would only account for a loss in wages in any year that a woman bears a child. If you only ever have 2 kids, and you work for 35 years before you retire, that should be 33 years of regular pay. I don't think it's having kids that is causing a very large part of the disparity in pay. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Separate issue: I have a friend who says that any woman who thinks it's appropriate for a man to buy her things and pay for the dinners and such is a whore, plain and simple. Why? Because you're essentially paying for sex, as far as he's concerned. The only girls he'll date are ones that realize that both people should be sharing things equally. Now obviously, if one of you is much better off than the other, there may be some accomodations... but by and large, it should be fairly 50/50. His test is to go on two dinners with a girl, each of similar value. On the first, he offers to pick up the check. If they allow, and don't insist they split it, he waits to see what happens on the second date. If the girl offers to pay because he paid the first time, then game on! Otherwise, if she expects him to continue paying, she's essentially a prostitute in his eyes, and no relationship ever developes. Note: I won't tell you how many women he's had sex with, but he's only ever dated 2 women. One for a few months, the other for about a year. Hence his constant decree of "women are whores". lol |
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The Rule of Thumb also was started in the same period. The Rule of Thumb in England meant it was okay to beat your wife, so long as you didn't use anything thicker than your thumb. ;) |
Just when you fine folks here thought I was gone!!! :lol:
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Question for you, SirLance...........I noticed your avatar and location. Do you think the word "chivalry" is still used in some of our forces today? And if so, describe what you think it truly means in our forces. And I don't mean just "towards women". I mean the ideal of the word. I just had the thought of what military would always use in drastic measures. The phrase of, "Women and children out first......" Does this still apply in our armed forces today? Or if any military member here can answer these questions...........please feel free to do so. |
When I was in the army, there were few women so I can't speak well to that. Also, there were no women in combat specialties (and still aren't), although female US soldiers have been killed in forward postings.
I can tell you that our enemies use women and children, and that I've been fired upon (and fired at) both. There is no chivalry in a firefight, there is only chaos met by training. Things do not happen slowly... I was a special operations senior sergeant (18Z), kind of the team leader, sometimes they call us the team daddy. It's hard to explain, there isn't an equivalent civilian job for this OS... The motto of special forces is "de oppresso liber" which is latin meaning "to free the oppressed." Is that not chivalry? Is that not the goal of bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry? To treat each person as special, even the uneducated, barefooted, african tribesman who doesn't know what (or if) he'll eat tomorrow? Do we live that? In my unit, we certainly did. Is it still the case? Yes, I believe it is. Hope that answers your questions, SB. |
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You and your men take care sir. And I do thank you kindly for answering so soon. |
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The irony here is that Carno is an officer with the Marines, I believe. I hope that doesn't deflate your romanticism of this whole thing. And I do believe that the whole "women and children first...." idea applies pretty much everywhere, not just in the military. |
I think SugahBritches misunderstands me. It's not that I don't believe in being courteous and gallant and everything else, it's just that I don't believe I should be that way because a medieval code tells me to be that way.
First and foremost my parents raised me to be polite and courteous to everyone, second I choose to be that way because I see the value in it, and third my position as a (soon to be (I commission in six weeks)) military officer dictates that I be polite and courteous. As a Marine, I would never want someone to look at me and think to themselves how nasty I look or act. I always try to conduct myself in a manner becoming that of a Marine officer. My point in this thread was never that I see no value in being polite and courteous, but rather that I don't see any value in an outdated moral code. The original post asked what I thought of the word chivalry, and I gave my thoughts on the word. My posts weren't critical of being nice to people, but rather I was being critical of an archaic code of conduct and what it means. I was never taught the code of conduct that is chivalry in the Marine Corps, but I was taught customs and courtesies that simply reinforced those taught to me by my parents. Now, I do realize that on the TFP I am not always a shining beacon of courtesy, but in person I conduct myself much better, as I hope anyone who knows me can attest. |
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To dream the impossible dream To fight the unbeatable foe To bear with unbearable sorrow To run where the brave dare not go """ (The Impossible Dream, from The Man of La Mancha) That is all. |
Thank you Carno for your post. I deeply appreciate it. I thought long and hard about even posting after JJ's post. I had just decided that I wouldn't bother. But, I sure feel better after your post. Thank you.
BTW, is customs and courtesies all that bad???? :D Just asking, because my daughter loves the ideals of what the Marines stand for and I'm glad to know her Marine husband shows her the respect and love that she deserves. But, I already knew that before he ever became a Marine and before he even knew my daughter. |
Worst thing with people today is the idea that the entire world owes them something.
How many time have you walked down a sidewalk and a person is approaching you straight down the middle forcing you to get off? I have this happen all the time while jogging so I started not getting out of the way of people smaller than me. So far I've had four collisions and none of them have had the guts to say anything when I spin them around or knock them down. |
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SB, I left the army in 1985 (wounded, took disability & medical discharge). Sorry if I gave the impression I am active duty, I am not. But I do pray for our boys every single day. Quote:
Nobody "taught" me chivalry, but a lot of people, staring with my parents, did teach me how to conduct myself, and I think "chivalry" is the word that best describes that code of conduct. |
to quote my Journal from about 9 months ago:
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To answer why my last post may have seemed caustic, allow me to explain.
Throughout the course of this thread, I have read comments by "Southerners" who claim that "Northerners" can't possibly understand what it's like to be raised properly and how it is our wish to shit all over the South with our un-cultured ways - or words to that effect. I've read comments about how, if there is any chivalry left, it must exist in the military, particularly in the Marine Corps. My experience has shown me that believing such absolutes is foolish and naive. The rudest, most inconsiderate people I ever came across were in the South. Does this mean that I think all Southerners are this way? No, nor would I ever make the argument that Southerners are rude and inconsiderate, but some are. Just like everywhere else. I also spent 5 years in the military. You might be surprised to know that a lot of people in the military are just as rude and inconsiderate as others in the general population. You should hear the way some men in the military talk about - and to - women. To me, the notion that the Marines are chivalrous is reminiscent of the recruiting ad that shows a Marine in a Knight's costume or Richard Gere in "An Officer and a Gentleman". It's marketing. It's not real life. My comments about romanticizing groups of people is something I take issue with because it doesn't recognize that people are individuals and one will never be able to peg a group of people as having qualities that no one else possesses, especially when it comes to the issue of courtesy. |
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And honestly, I know plenty of Marines who treat women like shit. |
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Chaucer’s contemporary description of the knight in his Canterbury Tales sheds light on the true spirit of chivalry:
There was a knight, a most distinguished man Who from the day on which he first began To ride abroad had followed chivalry, Truth, honor, generousness and courtesy. He had done nobly in his sovereign’s war And ridden into battle, no man more, As well in Christian as in heathen places, And ever honored for his noble graces … He was of sovereign value in all eyes. And though so much distinguished, he was wise And in his bearing modest as a maid He never yet a boorish thing had said In all his life to any, come what might; He was a true, a perfect gentle-knight. Speaking of his equipment, he possessed Fine horses, but he was not gaily dressed. He wore a fustian tunic stained and dark With smudges where his armour had left mark; Just home from service, he had joined our ranks To do his pilgrimage and render thanks. If women think that holding open doors is what is at the heart of chivalry, they need to aim higher. I don't think chivalry is a medium through which males and females interact. It is beyond gender relations. The "death" of chivalry wasn't brought about by women's social movements. Chivalry was done in be the general moral decay of society... but that is another thread. |
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