Lady Sage

Well now that all depends...

If a man comes into a place where I am and hes already shooting my chubby butt is running away.

If he acts all bad and whatnot and presents an op for me to bash in his head with something fairly heavy..... I would.

I see no problem with teaching kids to defend themselves but we should also teach them when to run. There is no shame in running when you know you cant win.

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longbough

Whether or not it's apparent, the subtext of my statement isn't an argument at all for passivitiy.

In truth I'd sooner have teachers trained with access to a firearm in a quick-access lockbox on school grounds. Most people don't know this but in every hospital Emergency Department in which I've worked there is a revolver in a hidden lockbox available. Most locums physicians don't know about it but it's there.

Again, I'm not even arguing for students to passively submit, either. On the contrary I'd rather have them actively running.

If you want another reason ... twenty students running away are twenty moving (and receding) targets going in twenty different directions.

But if they attack they converge into a pack (especially if a gunman retreats a few yards before making his shot) wherein multiple targets can be taken down with every single shot.

And consider this ... we all are familiar with the scenario of the young soldier trained intensively in boot camp for warfare only to become petrified in the face of danger as his comrades die about him (in truth an uncommon scenario given the quality of modern military training). And now we expect that untrained, unconditioned and unarmed children to exhibit the courage of ghurka warriors and charge ahead undaunted by loud sounds of gunfire or the screaming of classmates either shot or trampled ... just because someone gave them a 10 minute lecture on the subject?

There are many better alternatives to making our children into cannon-fodder - e.g. Arming Teachers or having the kids run away.

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"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ASU2003

The poll is missing the option of having the kids sit quietly and wait for the police, even though that might not always work.

If the gunman blocks the door, and it is the only escape, I don't see running away as a great option. If the gunman is in the hallway or cafeteria, then sure, it would be best to get as far away as possible.

I think they need to do a few simulations to see what would work and what doesn't work. And then really look at preventing this in the first place.

Jason762

True, but if I've been hearing gunshots on campus, and he comes in my door, fuck it, I'm gonna do my best to kill the dude. If he's already been shooting, then why would he suddenly stop?

I'm with him. Distract him with a flying object, and take 'im. At least they can't say I died in the fetal position under my desk.

Honestly, it depends on your mindset. It is my personal opinion that I don't have a lot to live for. If I die trying to save my students, it was an honorable notion. If I died and saved the students, I accomplished my goal. If I didn't die and saved them, then that's all well and fine too.

Of course, this is last resort. I'm not gonna go Rambo and look for the bad guy. If we can successfully block the door before the gunman arrives, then that's the better option.

Not just gonna sit there twiddling a pencil in my hand as the cops outside the school are sitting there trying to assess the situation.

longbough

I'm still waiting for a convincing argument why running away isn't a good idea.

What is the MAIN objective?
Is it to disarm/disable a gunman or to have the children live? These objectives aren't the same.

If the main objective is to have the children live then all arguments should be based on the probability of survival - not the probability of stopping the gunman.

So far most folks reason that it's better to fight than to passively await certain death. I agree but waiting around isn't an option. We're talking about running away.


"What if he's blocking the only exit?" That will only happen if he chooses to take only a single classroom on a second floor or higher. Why not have the teacher (who could be trained by state mandate) attack the gunman while the children escape?

What's wrong with running away?

In the real-life encounters the children weren't instructed to run but wait around quietly and wait for the authorities to come and rescue them. Just instruct the kids to run away instead and have the teachers attack the gunman.

What's wrong with running away?

In martial arts I've learned that, for the purposes of personal defense, in a real encounter against someone with a knife or gun, the object is to get the hell out of there. If I'm cornered the objective is to attack to manufacture the opportunity to escape. (... so why would we teach our kids to do otherwise without the benefit of training?)

What's wrong with running away?

A cop is taught that their first obligation is for their own well-being - even at the cost of letting a subject escape. If a cop finds himself unarmed face to face against someone with a firearm he/she is going find the opportunity to get away and call for assistance. (... so why would we teach our kids to do otherwise without the benefit of training?)

What's wrong with running away?

When a gun goes off in a closed space it makes a deafening and startling noise. A mob of kids is more likely to stop dead in their tracks when the shots start to ring out. In fact, as soon as a few kids stop/retreat then it's human nature for their friends to do likewise.

What's wrong with running away?

Fleeing children are less likely to get shot. i.e. twenty students running away = twenty moving (and receding) targets going in twenty different directions.

But if they attack they converge into a pack (especially if a gunman retreats a few yards before making his shot) wherein multiple targets can be taken down with every single shot.

What's wrong with running away?

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"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

Blackthorn

They are clearly not super human. Columbine's Harris and Klebold retreated pretty quickly in the face of return fire. These criminals always look for the path of least resistance. The problem in this scenario is that if you are one of the three of seventeen unarmed resistors who gets shot you become a 100% statistic. I don't like the idea of unarmed resistance because that's a virtual guarantee that someone is going to get hurt badly.

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longbough

Exactly.

School Principal: "Hello, Mrs. Smith. I'm sorry to say your 10 year old daughter was one of two students killed today."
Mrs. Smith: "Oh God! How did it happen?"
School Principal: "Well, we taught the children to attack in this situation. Unfortunately your daughter was one of the ones killed."

Any guesses on the amount settled in the class action lawsuit against the school and state?

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

ASU2003

The only problem with running away is when a gunman picks one classroom (it doesn't really matter if it is on the first or second floor, you can't get 30 kids out of the window or door before the gunman shoots them. He would probably walk in and block the escape through the only door. Anybody who comes near him would get shot.

If a few kids did manage to throw stuff and jump on the guy, the rest of them would run away, leaving three or four kids that will either stop the guy until cops can show up, or they will be killed by a pissed off gunman.

So neither idea is really the perfect solution.

My best idea would be for cops to use thermal imaging sniper rifle scopes and take out the gunman through a window. Then storm in and take control of the situation. That is unless the gunman is already shooting, then running away or attacking the gunman and hoping others will help is the way to go.

ngdawg

My school did those old "if the US gets attacked by an atom bomb" drills ( many here probably never had to do those)....
Here's how assinine they were:
The 'air raid' alarm goes off (it sounds a bit different than the fire alarm). We then went into the halls, crouched against the walls, single file, head between knees, arms wrapped around legs.
The running joke for years was : Crouch low to the ground. Put head between knees. Kiss ass goodbye.
My kids' middle school did terror attack drills. At the sound of the alarm, they were to go outside, about 100 ft from the building and 'find' their homeroom teacher in designated areas. Yea, that'll work Ever see 1300+ students wandering around? By the time they'd find those teachers in a real scenario, they'd be dust.
I agree, the chances of such things happen are minute. But so are many of the more dire predictaments we discuss regularly every day. I'd be willing to bet that more women here have been a victim of sexual assault than any other crime and that no one here has ever been in a hostage situation. But having a Pollyanna outlook isn't prudent. We are all vulnerable to any number of actions that threaten our lives; what we say we'll do and what we truly end up doing are not always the same thing.

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longbough

When there is no way to escape then fighting is the only option - I agree. But I believe that the question is if fighting should be the FIRST option.

Let me put my opinion this way:

Run Away > Fighting > Doing Nothing

__________________
"I do believe that, where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence. Thus when my eldest son asked me what he should have done, had he been present when I was almost fatally assaulted in 1908, whether he should have run away and seen me killed or whether he should have used his physical force which he could and wanted to use, and defended me, I told him that it was his duty to defend me even by using violence." - Mahatma Ghandi

spindles

or we could turn this into another gun control thread

I voted for run away - but I live in a country where guns are not freely available and school massacres are a rarity (or non existant)...

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dksuddeth

The idea behind this kind of instruction is not to teach kids to run down the hallway towards wherever they hear gunshots, it's to teach them that if they find themselves trapped in the classroom with a gunman, to swarm that individual instead of just waiting for your time to be shot in the head. There is absolutely nothing wrong with running away if shots are heard while they are in the classroom WITHOUT a gunman standing in the doorway.

so it's much better for the students to do exactly as the psycho demands to lessen the liability of the school?

Gunman: "Turn around and get down on your knees"
Student: "yes sir, mr. gunman"
BANG!

And then I read this post, so pretty much disregard the first part of this post. This is also my line of thinking and fighting back is better than doing nothing, but running to safety certainly is the best option. My OP was about what to do if there is no escape.

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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Prince

It's one thing to say that, but when you actually have someone standing in front of you pointing a shotgun at your face, the best of training can go right out the window. Yeah a full class can maybe take him down, but how likely is it that they will try? I see a kid or two maybe trying to do something and getting gunned down while others stand like deer caught in headlights.

Seems like a lot of these gunmen just walk right into the schools and into the open classrooms. Maybe lockable classroom doors with a bulletproof glass or something?

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raeanna74

Empowering kids and teachers is the best thing we can do. They'll feel less helpless against these 'bullies' with guns who threaten our school. Fear is the tool that these criminals feed on and they're killing the fear by giving these kids the tools to stand up against them when they try something. Not all or maybe even many may react with an attack but enough of them will that others will be encouraged to join in. Teachers need to be FREE to fight back. Teachers are too afraid to fight back because they could be blamed for anyone getting hurt. We are seeing that a passifistic attitude does not calm the criminals but seems to encourage them. Even if an aggressive attitude does not work better I doubt it will be any worse. For example - 1st classroom that the shooters walked into in the columbine incident, say the students rushed the shooters and took one or both of them down? Even if one was left I doubt he would have been as cocky as to keep waltzing around the school hunting kids. I doubt as many of the rest of the school would have been terrorized and shot down or watched their fellow students killed. I'd much rather my daughter go down fighting than cowering. Myself either. If I were a teacher I would prefer not waiting, locked in a classroom and cowering in the corner with all my students, wondering if the shooter would find us first. I'd rather grab a broom handle and stand by the door waiting for him to stick his greasy litting head in only to have his nose bashed in.

If we want the kids to fight back we need to give them the tools though. Self defense courses all around - Teachers, staff and students.

Here's this attitude (Fight not cower) in action http://www.rd.com/content/openConten...ontentId=26879. Granted there were some consequences and the student was larger BUT it CAN work in the right circumstances. Run if you can Fight if you can't. That's how I'd operate.

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