Yankees pitcher dead in plane crash into NYC building - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

analog · 10-11-2006, 02:36 PM

Quote:

NEW YORK (AP) - A small plane with New York Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle aboard crashed into a high-rise condominium tower Wednesday on the Upper East Side, killing at least two people and raining flaming debris on the sidewalks below, authorities said.

The New York City medical examiner's office now says two people have died in the plane crash, not four as the office had previously reported.

There was no immediate confirmation Lidle was among the dead, although a federal law enforcement official said Lidle's passport was found on the street beneath the crash site.

A law enforcement official in Washington, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Lidle was on the plane. And Federal Aviation Administration records showed the single-engine plane was registered to the athlete.

There was no word yet on injuries linked to the crash on an overcast October afternoon, which sent thick black smoke soaring above the city skyline and flames shooting out of apartments above the tony neighborhood.

On Sunday, the day after the Yankees were eliminated from the playoffs, Lidle cleaned out his locker at Yankee Stadium and talked about his interest in flying. He explained to reporters the process of getting a pilot's license, and said he intended to fly back to California in several days and planned to make a few stops.

Lidle, 34, a nine-year major league veteran, came to the Yankees from the Philadelphia Phillies in a late-season trade. The journeyman pitched for seven teams during a career in compiling an 82-78 lifetime record.

I think the thing that got me the most about this was the crazy uproar that I saw in the news when it was reported a plane hit a building in New York City. No one bothered to explain it was a small, fixed-wing aircraft. CNN, Faux News, MSNBC, all of them sprung into action to cover what was essentially a bad accident. And it's not like no one knew... because in most all the articles I started reading, it would be buried somewhere in the middle that they had reports it was a small plane. But of course that wasn't mentioned as part of the larger scope of the story until they'd all gone through their "could this be an attack?" nonsense.

kutulu · 10-11-2006, 02:41 PM

I heard about this earlier today, terribly sad news. He had a wife and a six year old boy.

As to the reporting of it, would you expect anything different? Its all about fearmongering these days.

analog · 10-11-2006, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

As to the reporting of it, would you expect anything different?

Nope.

When I said, "got me the most", I didn't mean "suprised me", I meant "bugged me". lol

Gatorade Frost · 10-11-2006, 02:51 PM

'Accident'? President Bush used to own the Rangers...

Yeah, I agree the reporting was done poorly, but reading the news online as it came in I knew that it was either a helicopter or a small plane, which really doesn't mean much as the planes that hit the WTC were air line planes and not cessnas or small planes like originally reported.

ubertuber · 10-11-2006, 05:39 PM

I don't know if this is insensitive, or cynical, or what... But I wonder if the owners of that building would have any traction in a suit against Lidle's estate to fix the building.

jorgelito · 10-11-2006, 06:14 PM

I'm amazed the planes got through. Where was the security?

cyrnel · 10-11-2006, 06:26 PM

Thirtieth floor, eh? Almost 600 feet?

Going for the mile-high-club and only giving it 10%?

Leave it to a Yankee.

Cynthetiq · 10-11-2006, 06:31 PM

actually all the local news all said that it was either a small fixed wing of a helicopter. In fact for the longest time they were claming it was a helicopter because there was on in the vicinity moments before the crash.

and I actually know someone who works in that building. I know they are safe, but still waiting to hear from them...

Aro23 · 10-11-2006, 06:53 PM

2 lives were confirmed lost. but what about the people that were already on that building. did he recently just get his license?

JumpinJesus · 10-11-2006, 07:30 PM

Okay, first the obligatory "this is sad" comment.

Now, on to analog's take on how this was reported. I'm growing increasingly weary of the media taking every possible news story and spinning the terrorist angle on it.

E. coli in the spinach? Terrorists???
Small plane apparently loses control and crashes into building? Terrorists????
Gas prices falling? Terrorists???
First cold weather of the season? Terrorists??????
Runaway bride sues ex-fiancee? Terrorists???????
Cute puppy has squirrel for best friend? Terrorists????
Jessica Simpson's butt bigger than last year? Terrorists???

I swear I think there's some kind of directive that requires them to tie as many stories to terrorism and 9/11 as they can.

The Daily Show displayed it best: America Freaks Out.

Ustwo · 10-11-2006, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by analog

linky

I think the thing that got me the most about this was the crazy uproar that I saw in the news when it was reported a plane hit a building in New York City. No one bothered to explain it was a small, fixed-wing aircraft. CNN, Faux News, MSNBC, all of them sprung into action to cover what was essentially a bad accident. And it's not like no one knew... because in most all the articles I started reading, it would be buried somewhere in the middle that they had reports it was a small plane. But of course that wasn't mentioned as part of the larger scope of the story until they'd all gone through their "could this be an attack?" nonsense.

When I read it on the fox news website it said it was a small plane and that no terrorism was suspected. This was early in the afternoon. There was even speculation it was a helicoptor.

fresnelly · 10-12-2006, 05:12 AM

I'm relieved that nobody in the building or on the ground was hurt. I can't help but think back to the early hours of 9/11 and remember my assumption that it was a similar accident involving a small aircraft.

Regarding the media coverage, I'm disheartened that the death of the Flight Instructor Co-pilot is getting almost zero attention. He had a life too.

stevie667 · 10-12-2006, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly

Regarding the media coverage, I'm disheartened that the death of the Flight Instructor Co-pilot is getting almost zero attention. He had a life too.

Maybe he was...a terrorist? Dun dun duuuhhh

Maybe i'm being dense, but seeing where he crashed into a building on a map, wouldn't he have had an idea that maybe he shouldn't have been flying around buildings?

Ustwo · 10-12-2006, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly

Regarding the media coverage, I'm disheartened that the death of the Flight Instructor Co-pilot is getting almost zero attention. He had a life too.

Agreed, the night of 9/11 when they were talking about what VIP's and well known people were on the various planes it really pissed me off for some reason. We had maybe up to 5000 people dead at that time, and all they were talking about it from a People magazine perspective.

Glory's Sun · 10-12-2006, 05:44 AM

I wonder how long it will take for this to become a conspiracy theory. After all 9/11/01 backwards is 10/11/06 or something.. heh.

I do know that I'm surely going to hell as though it was sad in a way, I felt some satisfaction that it was a Yankee's pitcher.

man it's getting hot in here all of a sudden..

Daval · 10-12-2006, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guccilvr

I wonder how long it will take for this to become a conspiracy theory. After all 9/11/01 backwards is 10/11/06 or something.. heh.

I do know that I'm surely going to hell as though it was sad in a way, I felt some satisfaction that it was a Yankee's pitcher.

man it's getting hot in here all of a sudden..

Oh you are so going to hell, heh

Cynthetiq · 10-12-2006, 06:29 AM

if it was a nobody it wouldn't get the press it is getting and if Yankees were in the WS, the more press it woudl have gotten....

but still, nuts.

Sultana · 10-12-2006, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jorgelito

I'm amazed the planes got through. Where was the security?

Exactly. There should have been no way in hell any kind of an aircraft could have gotten that low in a metropolitan area. I don't even mean because of 9/11, I mean just in general, Avionics rules and regs. Post 9/11, he shouldn't have been able to get *anywhere near* that rediculously low altitude. I'd love to read a transcript of the air traffic controller's interactions with them. see what what going on. So far no one (in the news) has suggested there was any kind of malfunction with the aircraft....

Halx · 10-12-2006, 07:35 AM

Baseball Jihad! Take that, America!

This is a good example of those "more popular in death" cases.

I saw on the news that was on in the pizza shop I happened to step into that they launched fighter planes to patrol over major cities after this happened. Is this true?

ngdawg · 10-12-2006, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

if it was a nobody it wouldn't get the press it is getting and if Yankees were in the WS, the more press it woudl have gotten....

but still, nuts.

Yesterday, I attended the funeral of a fallen marine, just 23 years old. There were news cameras; the procession, which included police cars and motorcycles, about 60 of us from the PGR, a huge amount of family and friends, the marine's battalion, Marine drum and bagpipe corp., was over a mile long and along the route were citizens, schoolkids, roadcrews, etc., holding flags, hands over hearts, standing at attention.
But hell, just another boy soldier killed...but a baseball player that flew too low-THERE'S the big news....

This just proves the askewed values held. Privately, we bury heroes; publicly we worship money-makers.

Leto · 10-12-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly

...

Regarding the media coverage, I'm disheartened that the death of the Flight Instructor Co-pilot is getting almost zero attention. He had a life too.

Well, we all know the reason for that, is that the Instructor never did play for the Blue Jays...

Kali · 10-12-2006, 08:08 AM

...and then do you remember this?

Quote:

Historical Perspective:
Plane strikes the Empire State Building
By Thomas M. Cunningham
US Naval Academy Fire Department

At 9:50 am on Saturday July 28, 1945, impossibility became a reality. A B-25 “Billy Mitchell” bomber belonging to the US Army Air Corps crashed into the Empire State Building. The plane was enroute to the Newark Airport located in New Jersey when it struck the 102-story structure. The odds against such an incident ever happening were computed as being 10,000 to 1. But weather flying conditions at the time helped contribute to the incident.

Lt. Col. William F. Smith a 27-year-old West Point Graduate was piloting the plane at the time of the incident. He was a combat veteran and had flown for two years over the skies of Europe. During his time in Europe he had amassed over a thousand hours flying time. For the hours he had flown Col. Smith was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, Air Medal and the Croix de Guerre for his wartime service in the European theater.

http://www.withthecommand.com/2002-J...pireplane.html

Enuff already!

kutulu · 10-12-2006, 08:11 AM

It wasn't like they got lost or were flying in places that aren't allowed. The plane was having mechanical failures and lost altitude crazy fast.

warrrreagl · 10-12-2006, 09:11 AM

Anybody seen this hilarious photo yet of Alec Baldwin trying to bluster his way past the police cordon?

"Look, you fascist asshole, I'm a VERY FAMOUS ACTOR and I'm SOOOO much more important than these mere "people" over here, so get out of my way and let me through because my insights would be INVALUABLE, and besides - my publicist has already set up the photo-op where I get to stand nearby and look all concerned and whatnot."

Linky

Kali · 10-12-2006, 09:21 AM

Alex Baldwin was really quoted as saying this:

Quote:

Hey. That's my friend's plane and you have no right keeping me from going into that building! This is Long Island; it's my turf. If you don't like my negative attitude, tell it to the Democrats who happen to adore me. Sheesh!

Jimellow · 10-12-2006, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sultana

Exactly. There should have been no way in hell any kind of an aircraft could have gotten that low in a metropolitan area. I don't even mean because of 9/11, I mean just in general, Avionics rules and regs. Post 9/11, he shouldn't have been able to get *anywhere near* that rediculously low altitude. I'd love to read a transcript of the air traffic controller's interactions with them. see what what going on. So far no one (in the news) has suggested there was any kind of malfunction with the aircraft....

From an article in today's Wall Street Journal regarding the crash:

Quote:

The plane in yesterday's crash was flying along the East River under rules that allow small aircraft to skirt Manhattan as long as they stay under 1,100 feet. A similar corridor along the Hudson River also allows for flights using "visual flight rules," where pilots use their eyes and ears, rather than instruments, to navigate their way.

Similarly, Federal Aviation Administration rules allow small aircraft to fly through major cities across the country, allowing the operation of planes that take off from small downtown airports and helicopters that land at convention centers, hospitals and heliports.

Seems like flying low is pretty much kosher. I know next to nothing about FAA rules and regulations, but the portion of the article quoted above was very interesting to me.

Sultana · 10-12-2006, 09:38 AM

Huh. I had no idea (to Jimellow's post). I rather hope we don't have similar tolerances in Los Angeles.

kutulu · 10-12-2006, 09:55 AM

Those rules apply everywhere. Since we don't have an abundance of planes crashing into buildings they seem to work fine.

lindalove · 10-12-2006, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly

Regarding the media coverage, I'm disheartened that the death of the Flight Instructor Co-pilot is getting almost zero attention. He had a life too.

Here is a photo of the co-pilot (instructor).

Pilot Tyler Stanger poses inside his plane at Brackett Field Airport in LaVerne, Calif., in the Spring of 2004. Yankees pitcher Cory Lidle said flying relieved the stress of his pro baseball life. But to his instructor, Tyler Stanger, it was life itself, and had been since he was a boy. Both were heading back to California when Lidle's plane slammed into a Manhattan high-rise, Wednesday Oct 11, 2006. (AP Photo/David Pardo)

ShaniFaye · 10-13-2006, 03:23 AM

how could they be flying back to california?

Quote:

n Lidle and Stanger's last known contact with air traffic control, they told Teterboro not to transfer them to New York air traffic control because they were "just going to fly up and down the river" under visual flight rules, Hersman said.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/12/plane.crash/index.html

Jove · 10-13-2006, 07:04 AM

I would like to know why people like to add "And this person had a wife/husband and a kid"? Does it make the story more depressing to know that he had a family? What if lived alone with just a dog? Would someone add "Oh, and he had a dog". I am sure people would just shrug and not think any more about it.

kutulu · 10-13-2006, 07:40 AM

Yes, it does make it more tragic to leave people behind.

n0nsensical · 10-13-2006, 01:13 PM

and now of course, the politicians are going to demand that general aviation in new york be clamped down on, because we all know terrorists in planes listen to air traffic control and don't know what a transponder is or how to disable it. I don't think anyone needs a damned air traffic control to tell them not to crash into a building, its just a freak accident that possibly could have happened if the space was controlled or not.

this whole thing reminds me of playing grand theft auto 3, flying around liberty city in the dodo, and if you ever flew the dodo you know its really hard to control and you just can't help crashing. a lot. but even if you crash it you can usually take off with it again, unless it flips over and explodes. oh, ban grand theft auto 3, it encourages our children to fly planes that are hard to control and crash! not to mention banging whores and then killing them and taking the money back afterwards!

Carno · 10-13-2006, 01:47 PM

What the two pilots were doing was flying in a VFR corridor below Class B airspace. As long as you stay below 1,100 feet and over the Hudson or East rivers, you don't need to be talking to ATC at all. What they were doing was perfectly legal and safe, although in this particular case something went wrong.

Nobody bats an eye that helicopters fly in and around NYC all the freakin time, but as soon as someone famous crashes everyone is up in arms about planes flying so low and "Think of the children!! Won't someone think of the children!!"

This whole situation is retarded, because you have a lot of non aviation types talking about what should be and what should not be in regards to flying. Yes it was bad that the plane crashed into a building, but it was an accident. It was not on purpose.

However, leave it to the FAA and NTSB to pass judgments on what is safe and what is not. You can regulate everything to high hell, but things will still happen and planes will still fall out of the sky. Regulating everything under the sun does not necessarily make things safer, because people are people and accidents will always happen.

And yes, you can fly low over cities everywhere in the US. Small aircraft do it all the time. Planes go down all the time, but you never hear about it until they have a fucking celebrity onboard and then everyone turns into a safety expert and armchair pilot.

hiredgun · 10-15-2006, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Baseball Jihad! Take that, America!

This is a good example of those "more popular in death" cases.

I saw on the news that was on in the pizza shop I happened to step into that they launched fighter planes to patrol over major cities after this happened. Is this true?

Hal, I'm pretty sure it is. I'm in DC and there were a number of fighter jets screaming overhead at really low altitudes that day, for no apparent reason. We get lots of commercial air traffic over campus (and occasionally the White House helicopters), but I've never seen fighters do it before.

10-11-2006, 02:51 PM	#4 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	'Accident'? President Bush used to own the Rangers... Yeah, I agree the reporting was done poorly, but reading the news online as it came in I knew that it was either a helicopter or a small plane, which really doesn't mean much as the planes that hit the WTC were air line planes and not cessnas or small planes like originally reported. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

10-11-2006, 05:39 PM	#5 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	I don't know if this is insensitive, or cynical, or what... But I wonder if the owners of that building would have any traction in a suit against Lidle's estate to fix the building. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

10-11-2006, 06:26 PM	#7 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	Thirtieth floor, eh? Almost 600 feet? Going for the mile-high-club and only giving it 10%? Leave it to a Yankee. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

10-11-2006, 06:31 PM	#8 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	actually all the local news all said that it was either a small fixed wing of a helicopter. In fact for the longest time they were claming it was a helicopter because there was on in the vicinity moments before the crash. and I actually know someone who works in that building. I know they are safe, but still waiting to hear from them... __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

10-11-2006, 07:30 PM	#10 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	Okay, first the obligatory "this is sad" comment. Now, on to analog's take on how this was reported. I'm growing increasingly weary of the media taking every possible news story and spinning the terrorist angle on it. E. coli in the spinach? Terrorists??? Small plane apparently loses control and crashes into building? Terrorists???? Gas prices falling? Terrorists??? First cold weather of the season? Terrorists?????? Runaway bride sues ex-fiancee? Terrorists??????? Cute puppy has squirrel for best friend? Terrorists???? Jessica Simpson's butt bigger than last year? Terrorists??? I swear I think there's some kind of directive that requires them to tie as many stories to terrorism and 9/11 as they can. The Daily Show displayed it best: America Freaks Out. __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

10-11-2006, 02:41 PM	#2 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I heard about this earlier today, terribly sad news. He had a wife and a six year old boy. As to the reporting of it, would you expect anything different? Its all about fearmongering these days.

10-11-2006, 06:14 PM	#6 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	I'm amazed the planes got through. Where was the security?

10-11-2006, 06:53 PM	#9 (permalink)
Aro23 Crazy	2 lives were confirmed lost. but what about the people that were already on that building. did he recently just get his license?

10-12-2006, 05:12 AM	#12 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	I'm relieved that nobody in the building or on the ground was hurt. I can't help but think back to the early hours of 9/11 and remember my assumption that it was a similar accident involving a small aircraft. Regarding the media coverage, I'm disheartened that the death of the Flight Instructor Co-pilot is getting almost zero attention. He had a life too. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

10-12-2006, 05:44 AM	#15 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	I wonder how long it will take for this to become a conspiracy theory. After all 9/11/01 backwards is 10/11/06 or something.. heh. I do know that I'm surely going to hell as though it was sad in a way, I felt some satisfaction that it was a Yankee's pitcher. man it's getting hot in here all of a sudden..

10-12-2006, 06:29 AM	#17 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	if it was a nobody it wouldn't get the press it is getting and if Yankees were in the WS, the more press it woudl have gotten.... but still, nuts. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

10-12-2006, 07:35 AM	#19 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Baseball Jihad! Take that, America! This is a good example of those "more popular in death" cases. I saw on the news that was on in the pizza shop I happened to step into that they launched fighter planes to patrol over major cities after this happened. Is this true? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

10-12-2006, 08:11 AM	#23 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	It wasn't like they got lost or were flying in places that aren't allowed. The plane was having mechanical failures and lost altitude crazy fast.

10-12-2006, 09:11 AM	#24 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Anybody seen this hilarious photo yet of Alec Baldwin trying to bluster his way past the police cordon? "Look, you fascist asshole, I'm a VERY FAMOUS ACTOR and I'm SOOOO much more important than these mere "people" over here, so get out of my way and let me through because my insights would be INVALUABLE, and besides - my publicist has already set up the photo-op where I get to stand nearby and look all concerned and whatnot." Linky __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed. Last edited by warrrreagl; 10-12-2006 at 09:14 AM..

10-12-2006, 09:38 AM	#27 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	Huh. I had no idea (to Jimellow's post). I rather hope we don't have similar tolerances in Los Angeles. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

10-12-2006, 09:55 AM	#28 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Those rules apply everywhere. Since we don't have an abundance of planes crashing into buildings they seem to work fine.

10-13-2006, 07:04 AM	#31 (permalink)
Jove Groovy Hipster Nerd Location: Michigan	I would like to know why people like to add "And this person had a wife/husband and a kid"? Does it make the story more depressing to know that he had a family? What if lived alone with just a dog? Would someone add "Oh, and he had a dog". I am sure people would just shrug and not think any more about it.

10-13-2006, 07:40 AM	#32 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Yes, it does make it more tragic to leave people behind.

10-13-2006, 01:13 PM	#33 (permalink)
n0nsensical Junkie Location: San Francisco	and now of course, the politicians are going to demand that general aviation in new york be clamped down on, because we all know terrorists in planes listen to air traffic control and don't know what a transponder is or how to disable it. I don't think anyone needs a damned air traffic control to tell them not to crash into a building, its just a freak accident that possibly could have happened if the space was controlled or not. this whole thing reminds me of playing grand theft auto 3, flying around liberty city in the dodo, and if you ever flew the dodo you know its really hard to control and you just can't help crashing. a lot. but even if you crash it you can usually take off with it again, unless it flips over and explodes. oh, ban grand theft auto 3, it encourages our children to fly planes that are hard to control and crash! not to mention banging whores and then killing them and taking the money back afterwards! Last edited by n0nsensical; 10-13-2006 at 01:19 PM..

10-13-2006, 01:47 PM	#34 (permalink)
Carno Junkie	What the two pilots were doing was flying in a VFR corridor below Class B airspace. As long as you stay below 1,100 feet and over the Hudson or East rivers, you don't need to be talking to ATC at all. What they were doing was perfectly legal and safe, although in this particular case something went wrong. Nobody bats an eye that helicopters fly in and around NYC all the freakin time, but as soon as someone famous crashes everyone is up in arms about planes flying so low and "Think of the children!! Won't someone think of the children!!" This whole situation is retarded, because you have a lot of non aviation types talking about what should be and what should not be in regards to flying. Yes it was bad that the plane crashed into a building, but it was an accident. It was not on purpose. However, leave it to the FAA and NTSB to pass judgments on what is safe and what is not. You can regulate everything to high hell, but things will still happen and planes will still fall out of the sky. Regulating everything under the sun does not necessarily make things safer, because people are people and accidents will always happen. And yes, you can fly low over cities everywhere in the US. Small aircraft do it all the time. Planes go down all the time, but you never hear about it until they have a fucking celebrity onboard and then everyone turns into a safety expert and armchair pilot. __________________ http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/