jorgelito

Wait, do the Amish not pay taxes?

shakran

The Amish pay taxes. The only exception is social security (unless they're employed somewhere rather than self employed on the farm)- - - but then they don't GET social security benefits either, so why should they?

Really, there's WAY too many misconceptions about these guys running around on this thread. The idea that they don't "give back" to society is absolutely ludicrous. Not only do they give back in the way most of us do - taxes - but how many of us can say that we finished rebuilding our neighbor's house - for free - just 15 hours after it was destroyed?

What all the anti-Amish sentiment on here boils down to is "they don't think like me and therefore I don't like them."

Considering the discussions that go on in tilted sexuality, I'd expect a LOT more tolerance and understanding of different lifestyles from TFP members.

debaser

I wasn't speaking of taxes, I was speaking of the other obligations of citizens. They set themselves apart in a completely exclusive society, that is not what this nation is all about. I see no difference between them and the branchdavidionnutsorightwingmilitiamormonseparatistcompounddwellers elsewhere in the country.

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Cynthetiq

that's the irony to me, the BDSM crowd being upset and intolerant to the plain vanilla group...

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shakran

I want you to go back and read, very carefully, post number 71 in this thread. Then come back and say that again with a straight face.

Lady Sage

Amish do not partake in social security. They fund their own schools and medical clinics. You may just be suprised at how much money they have. The ones I know pay property taxes with cold hard cash.

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debaser

This is my serious face:



One anecdote does not an argument make. I grew up around the Amish, I played with their children and had a great time. They are a friendly and warm people. And I say again that they simply do not contribute to the nation as a whole in any meaningful way. If they dissapeared tommorrow what would the ramifications be to the US?

I'm sure the Michigan Militia helped somebody change a flat tire once or twice...

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Lady Sage

Oh, nothing much, just a shortage in milk supply and in localities where they live a shortage in farm grown veggies and fruits. Lets not forget meat. On several occasions we came home with part of a cow I had become "friends" with.

They DO contribute. Just because not all of us see exactly how doesnt mean they dont. Exactly how do WE contribute? We get up we go to work we come home and we veg out.

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debaser

So you are saying that they produce more than a non-Amish farmer would on the same land?

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Cynthetiq

gee I guess you could say that about any ethnic or religious group that you don't like. Right? I mean it's filled with such generalities that you could even say, Boston Red Sox Fans in place of Amish.

Just what is it that a person has to do to "contribute"?

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

shakran

Except when it's just one example of many because that's how the Amish think and operate.

Then what the hell is your problem with them? This is sounding an awful lot like a certain other argument I hear ad nauseum. "Oh I ain't got nothin' against the blacks! I got some good friends that'r colored!"

What would be teh remifications to the US if YOU disappeared tomorrow? Would the country go down the tubes? Nope. In fact outside of the people that know you, you wouldn't be missed at all. Guess that means you also benefit from this country without giving anything meaningful back.

One of the strengths of this country is that we maintain our individuality while all being part of a collective strong enough to enrich the entire nation. What that means is that an Amish guy in Pennsylvania is no more or less vital to the success of this country than any other randomly chosen average American.

But just because you personally do not make a noticible difference in the history of this country does not mean we should denigrate you or make snide remarks about you.

By your logic you don't contribute in a flamboyantly noticible way and therefore you are useless to the country. But we extend you the courtesy of not denigrating you. It might be nice if you did the same for the Amish.

debaser

Wow people, I didn't realize I had pissed off the thought police.

Where have I denigrated the Amish? The title of the thread is "why I can't respect the Amish". I have given you my reasons.


Cynthetiq:
I believe that you must suborn some of your own wants and needs to better the nation you live in. I feel that I do that (I feel much more on some days than others). The Amish, do not. They live in an insular society that does not permit the free association with other groups, and discourages the exhange of information and ideas.

Shakran:
If you are suggesting that I am a racist, you are an idiot.

The ramification of me dissapearing? None. But I am an individual, and they are a cultural group, so thats not a very good example, is it?

It is funny that you mention individuality, when that is one of the least valued traits to the Amish. Their actions may occasionaly differ, but the overall attitude of the Amish towards people outside their culture is similar to the very racist groups you rather patheticly attempted to lump me in with above.

Also, I was in no way suggesting that because they don't support a record label or some similar bollocks that they have less intrensic worth than any other American, I am just saying that all of their energy goes into supporting their little group, and does not benefit the American people as whole.

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rofgilead

I would bet that the people here who look down on the Amish do not live near any Amish or have never met them before. I grew up in the Midwest (wisconsin) and would often see a black horse carriage on the highway of the Amish traveling around. I would always find it absolutely amazing that they could continue such a life and value system in the face of a country that really does want to culturally indoctrinate its members (through television, music, and movies). Our country does not like it when small groups form their own communities, we look down on them as quaint or messed up - while those of us in the modern culture grew more seperated from community, alone and depressed. I think it is foolish to look down upon a group of people as if you have judged their life stupid compared to your choices. Perhaps their life is different than yours, but why judge them or disrespect them if it doesn't hurt your modern lifestyle?

This is just not true. The Amish often have their children go on a journey modern society and live in a modern lifestyle. They do this so that their children can see if they want to be like a modern american lifestyle or an amish lifestyle - and they let their children decide for themselves. The Amish also commonly trade crafts and interact with modern society, as well as travel using the highways, etc.

Cynthetiq

First, there is NO NEED TO CALL SOMEONE ANY NAMES FOR ANY REASON. I'll give you the opportunity to edit your post unless someone else reports it since it's better to let another moderator moderate your post if you don't self moderate it.

and no, actually I don't think he's suggesting that you're racist since this isn't RACE based it's FAITH based the correct word is bigot.

many communities that are protecting their cultures are live in "an insular society that does not permit the free association with other groups, and discourages the exhange of information and ideas."

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

debaser

Cynthetiq:

I qualified my statement to my satisfaction. IF he is calling me a racist, THEN he/she is an idiot. I personaly feel the implication that I am either a racist or a bigot (your moniker of choice) is far more insulting than calling someone an idiot.

Intolerant of those who differ? Indeed.

I am not disrespecting them, I am am just not respecting them.

And what happens to them if they decide they like modern society, can they still come back and worship with their family? Attend the barn raising? No, they are cast out of the society for not conforming. Of course, that is a choice some make, but what a choice to force on your kid...

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shakran

The Amish as a collective have done nothing to warrant a lack of respect from you. So yes, you're denigrating them.



Where the hell did you get that notion? Of course the Amish can associate with other groups. How do you think they sell all those quilts? It's no big deal in Amish country for Amish people and non-Amish people to be wandering around in the same place. They even talk to each other. Hell, you probably don't realize this but the Amish take vacations just like you do. One of the coolest train rides I ever took was one where I sat and talked with an Amish family on their way to the mountains for 3 weeks. If they can't freely mingle in "our society" then why were those guys on the train?


Then it's a good thing I'm not, because calling another user an idiot would be a really stupid move wouldn't it. Considering the Amish are not a race, your poorly-thought out attitude toward them, ridiculous though it may be, is not racist.

OK, let's take an average American town. What if a town just up and disappeared. Would the country crumble? No. In fact the majority of the country wouldn't even notice it was gone. Therefore by your (lack of) logic the town is not contributing and therefore does not deserve respect.

Again I didn't try to lump you in a racist group - but thanks for trying to distract everyone from your lack of reasonable arguments by making up stuff about my arguments.

I will note, however, that denigrating a group, and then claiming you're not really against that group because you played with their children is the SAME line of reasoning USED by the racists to excuse their racism.

No, all their energy does not go to supporting "their little group." If it did, they wouldn't have rebuilt that guy's house. If someone in the area, Amish or not, needs help, the Amish are right the hell there, and that's a DAMN sight better than I can say for most "contributing" Americans.

They will go FAR out of their way to help where help is needed, no matter who needs it, and they don't ask or want thanks, recognition, or payment for it. There's a very valuable lesson there, one that the majority of us would be much better off taking to heart. But you won't learn it until you stop worrying about how different they are from you.

debaser

Hey mate,

I'm not worried about how different they are from me. Most people are. My respect is earned by a person or groups actions. They have not earned my respect. Again, I fail to see how I am denigrating (interesting choice of words given your above arguments) the Amish. I don't respect a whole lot of people. Very few of them feel any worse for it. I don't believe I have actually said anything about the Amish in this thread that is insulting, certainly not to the point of getting anyone this upset about it. If you would prefer not to hear my opinions in the future I encourage you to make use of the ignore feature.

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shakran

that's a much more reasonable tone than you used at first. I still don't agree, but I don't disagree as vehemently

what is that supposed to mean?

Except for the blatantly false misrepresentation of them as a group who will not interact with or help anyone who is not in their group. That's just plain wrong, and needed to be corrected.


I don't use the ignore feature. It's pointless. People disagree with each other all the time and there's nothing wrong with it. Ignoring someone just because they don't think the way you do is childish. You'd have to be a pretty dedicated jackass to get me to hit the ignore button.

Frankly if someone is a big enough jackass that I would ever feel like ignoring them, they're a big enough jackass that the mods have already banned them before i can get around to clicking the button

jorgelito

Well, the Amish continue to amaze and astound me with their humanity (see previous post way back).

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/07/ami....ap/index.html

Maybe we can all learn a little something from them (besides butter churning and quiltmaking). Just that simple little act alone is humbling to me and I can think of nothing but respect for them. Looking inward, I don't know (at least with any certainty) whether or not I could have the capacity for "love and forgiveness" like they do. The rest of modern America tends to be vengeful and lustful for violence. I wonder how the Amish view 9/11?

On another note, in the article that Shakran provided, it isn't very clear if the Grabers are also Amish or not, causing a little confusion. I read it as the Grabers were Amish and the Amish community came out in force to help them rebuild their house (reminds me of a reality show where a group of people rebuild a poor deserving familiy's home).

Also, are the Amish allowed to ride trains? Or was it a Mennonite family on vacation (I'm just asking for clarification for my own knowledge sake). Where else are the Amish located? I just assumed they were in Pennsylvania, I had no idea they were in Wisconson too.

shakran

No, the Grabers are not Amish, which is why they were so shocked that all the Amish showed up and rebuilt their house for them. They just live in Amish country, which is how the word got out to the people who rebuilt the house for them.

Yes, they can ride trains and other motorized vehicles. they just can't drive them.

One misconception about the Amish is the idea that they reject technology because it is technology. That's not true. They reject that which could separate the community. Everyone in an amish community drives the same style and color of buggy (not all communities are all black, btw. Some even have yellow roofs) because embellishing your buggy or having a bigger buggy than everyone else could, in their view, result in the buggy's owner having selfish pride. Only wealthy Amish people could afford cars, and so cars would bring inequality to the community.

In fact if you get friendly enough with an Amish family that they invite you to their farm, you'd probably be shocked by what you found in the barn. It's not at all unusual to find modern milking and refridgeration equipment - only difference is that it's not powered by electricity because they feel hooking up to the grid would be conforming with the rest of the world, which the bible in their interpretation tells them not to do (Romans 12:2). (and actually that's not even true of some Amish - - some colonies accept the use of 12 volt batteries or even self-generated (hydroelectric) electricity - the stipulation being that they don't want enough electricity to power things that could negatively influence the Amish way of life -- - i.e. a 12 volt battery isn't gonna power a plasma screen )

nope, they were Amish. Mennonites drive cars - and if you've ever ridden Amtrak you know it's faster to drive

Wisconsin has the 4th largest population of Amish in the country. Pennsylvania, of course, is the largest, with Ohio and Indiana in the middle.

There are also a few Amish in Iowa though there are none living, as most believe, in the Amana colonies.

jorgelito

Cool, thanks for the clarification. Yes, I would love to see a plasma tv powered by 12 v batteries!!

I find it interesting that the Grabers moved into an Amish community.

The Amish sort of remind me a bit of the Hasidic/Orthodox Jews - there are similarities in dress, tight-knit community. I think that on the sabbath, those Jews don't drive, use electricity or something like that also (can't remember specifically).

Oh God, Amtrak!! I think a horse & buggy is faster, seriously.

So how come you know so much about the Amish (and now I do too!)?

Cynthetiq

I guess this isn't a reason either...I'm assuming you'd rather they drive cars past the family's home and do drive by shootings for payback.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ngdawg

That is not an exclusive action to the Amish. Disowning, shunning, casting out, whatever you wish to call it, happens in every single sector of society and done for the most inane reasons. Hasidic Jews cut a small piece of clothing off in front of the family member who did something they 'shouldn't' have to signify that person is now dead, as an example.
I think it takes an inordinate amount of grace and civility for the Amish community to embrace the family of the killer of their children as they have. Not only have they gone to the widow's home to help her grieve, they have set up a fund for her kids. When's the last time you heard of anyone doing that in our 'normal' society?
Saying they're not worthy of your respect because they have resisted all the things we could easily do without is kind of.....silly.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

snowy

/threadjack

It depends on the route. Most of the routes that were extremely slow were discontinued. For instance, I once took the Pioneer (which no longer exists) when I was 14. We called it the Amslug. We had to be bussed across Illinois because of floods and then our train was still 14+ hours late and wasn't properly equipped with food. We arrived in Portland, Oregon at 4am when we should have arrived at 3pm.

At any rate...the horse and buggy is still not faster, sadly.

/end threadjack

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Sweetpea

"progress" is not nessasarily better.

just because something is deemed "old fashioned" doesn't mean it actually doesn't work better for a society.

for instance, the environmental impact most amish/mennonite communities have is almost none and they are also self sufficient... that's a lot more than anyone in "progressive" common culture can say... we, who are tied to our gas and electric to survive daily tasks.... just a thought.

sweetpea

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shakran

They didn't- - -they just live in an area that has a lot of Amish which, if you move anywhere near Lancaster, is inevitible.


Years ago I worked at a station that had Amish country as part of its coverage area. Got to know a lot of 'em, and became friends with 'em once they realized that even if I was holding a camera I knew not to take their picture with it.

debaser

Just a nerdy etymological jab.

I never said they wouldn't interact or help anyone outside their group. If you remember a few posts up I mentioned interacting with as a child quite a bit.

You are free to assume whatever you like.

Thats OK, I don't respect anyone else who would do that either. And I will remind you, and Cynthetiq (post facto), that this thread is specifically NOT about the recent shootings. I think it is great that they can forgive the family of their childrens killer, but many people forgive and comfort their nemesis every day. It just doesn't make headlines.

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Cynthetiq

As I was cruising the dictionary.com I found this interesting and thought to point it out to you since the "Just a nerdy etymological jab" I became interested looking at the entymology of respect and found this:

(bold is mine)

So thus, your statement is by definition, your "not respecting" them is disrespecting them.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

debaser

Cynthetiq:

I'm sorry everything is so black and white to you. I make a conscious choice to respect things, as I explained to shakran above. If I have not made that choice, then I don't respect said thing. I also make the concious choice to disrespect things. If I haven't made that choice, then I don't disrespect them either.

Shades of grey.

The difference here is that your default response toward everything is to respect it. At least that is what you are suggesting I do. I would put to you that such respect is of little or no worth.

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Cynthetiq

actually it's not black and white, but exactly as you stated, shades of grey.

While disrespect has the underlying meaning on "not respecting" you are using the three definitions quite properly. You just cannot accept the fact that the 2nd definition is still the same meaning, when in reality you are trying to state that you "disrespecting" someone is ONLY the definitoin of "regard or treat with contempt or rudeness."

That my friend is black and white, not shades of grey.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

debaser

Cynthetiq:

Is the entire basis of your argument a dictionary definition? If so, I am sorry I don't fit into your book.

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Cynthetiq

No argument here, I'm just being observant. You do fit into my book. YOU don't think you fit into it.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

debaser

You believe that my feelings toward the Amish are either:

Respect - to hold in esteem or honor

or

Disrespect - to regard or treat without respect; regard or treat with contempt or rudeness.


I would put to you that (gasp!) there is a third option. Savvy?

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Cynthetiq

please enlighten me to that third option that isn't within the bounds of defitions I originally posted, or you posted above.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

debaser

Apathy, disregard, unconcern, etc.

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Cynthetiq

agreed, but it is encompassed by "to regard or treat without respect;" since there is no respect.

since you aren't giving them any particular attention by your statment of "apathy, disregard, unconcern" disrespect is still within the bounds even moreso now that I've done more entymological research.

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

debaser

Aside from completely threadjacking this topic, your dogmatic insistence that there are only two possible states of mind regarding any group of people is becoming annoying at best, non-sensical at worst.

Let me ask you something. How do you feel about native Siberian wood carvers (or, if you happen to have ever thought about native Siberian wood carvers before, insert a group of people you have never conciously considered before)?

Don't be shy, this is an exercise in makeing you understand.

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Ustwo

I pay social security, I don't get it, I dont' want it, how the hell do I get out of it? I'll wear a straw hat if needed.

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Cynthetiq

now that you've brought (insert whatever I have never consciously considered before) to my attention, it falls into defintion "2 : an act of giving particular attention : CONSIDERATION" of the word respect.

I'm thinking that your black and white thinking means that respect is "3 a : high or special regard : ESTEEM b : the quality or state of being esteemed c plural : expressions of respect or deference" and ONLY that definition.

I'm also of the opinion that the analog also qualifies and frames his argument along the same lines.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ubertuber

Is this really happening?

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