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Old 09-20-2006, 06:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Two fun articles today

Quote:
Colorado State professor disputes global warming is human-caused
Views ‘out of step’ with others are good for science, academic says

By Kate Martin
The Daily Reporter-Herald
Global warming is happening, but humans are not the cause, one of the nation’s top experts on hurricanes said Monday morning.

Bill Gray, who has studied tropical meteorology for more than 40 years, spoke at the Larimer County Republican Club Breakfast about global warming and whether humans are to blame. About 50 people were at the talk.

Gray, who is a professor at Colorado State University, said human-induced global warming is a fear perpetuated by the media and scientists who are trying to get federal grants.

“I think we’re coming out of the little ice age, and warming is due to changes to ocean circulation patterns due to salinity variations,” Gray said. “I’m sure that’s it.”

Gray’s view has been challenged, however.

Roger Pielke Jr., director of the Center for Science and Technology Policy Research at the University of Colorado, said in an interview later Monday that climate scientists involved with the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change concluded that most of the warming is due to human activity.

“Bill Gray is a widely respected senior scientist who has a view that is out of step with a lot of his colleagues’,” Pielke said. But challenging widely held views is “good for science because it forces people to make their case and advances understanding.”

“We should always listen to the minority,” said Pielke, who spoke from his office in Boulder. “But it’s prudent to take actions that both minimize human effect on the climate and also make ourselves much more resilient.”

At the breakfast, Gray said Earth was warmer in some medieval periods than it is today. Current weather models are good at predicting weather as far as 10 days in advance, but predicting up to 100 years into the future is “a great act of faith, and I don’t believe any of it,” he said.

But even if humans cause global warming, there’s not much people can do, Gray said. China and India will continue to pump out greenhouse gases, and alternative energy sources are expensive.

“Why do it if it’s not going to make a difference anyway?” he said. “Whether I’m right or wrong, we can’t do anything about it anyway.”

But Pielke said it makes sense to reduce humans’ impact on the climate.

“There are uncertainties. It’s not like you

change your light bulbs today, you’re going to have better weather tomorrow,” he said. “It’s even better if those actions you’re taking make sense for other reasons, like getting off Middle Eastern oil or saving money.”
Vrs....

Quote:
Calif. sues carmakers over greenhouse gases
Ford, GM and Toyota among six automakers charged in groundbreaking suit that contends companies cost state millions because of vehicle emissions.
September 20 2006: 4:13 PM EDT

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) -- California sued six of the world's largest automakers over global warming Wednesday, charging that greenhouse gases from their vehicles have caused billions of dollars in damages.

The lawsuit is the first of its kind to seek to hold manufacturers liable for the damages caused by their vehicles' emissions, state Attorney General Bill Lockyer said.

It also comes less than a month after California lawmakers adopted the nation's first global warming law mandating a cut in greenhouse gas emissions.

An automaker trade group called the global warming move a "nuisance suit." Car manufacturers have also held up California state rules to force cuts in tailpipe emissions from cars and trucks with legal action of their own.

The lawsuit names General Motors Corp. (up $0.32 to $31.72, Charts), Ford Motor Co. (up $0.11 to $7.77, Charts), Toyota Motor Corp. (up $0.91 to $107.27, Charts), the Chrysler Motors Corp. U.S. arm of Germany's DaimlerChrysler AG (up $0.61 to $49.90, Charts) and the North American units of Japan's Honda Motor Co. (up $0.40 to $32.95, Charts) and Nissan Motor Co. Ltd. (up $0.16 to $22.52, Charts).

"[California] just passed a new law to cut global warming emissions by 25 percent and that's a good start and this lawsuit is a good next step," said Dan Becker, director of the Sierra Club's Global Warming Program.

Lockyer told Reuters he would seek "tens or hundreds of millions of dollars" from the automakers in the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Northern California.

The lawsuit seeks monetary damages for past and ongoing contributions to global warming and asks that the companies be held liable for future monetary damages to California.

It noted that California is spending millions to deal with reduced snowpack, beach erosion, ozone pollution and the impact on endangered animals and fish.

"The injuries have caused the people to suffer billions of dollars in damages, including millions of dollars of funds expended to determine the extent, location and nature of future harm and to prepare for and mitigate those harms, and billions of dollars of current harm to the value of flood control infrastructure and natural resources," it said.

Ford deferred comment to the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, which called the complaint a "nuisance suit" similar to one a New York court dismissed.

"Automakers will need time to review this legal complaint, however, a similar nuisance suit that was brought by attorneys-general against utilities was dismissed by a federal court in New York," the industry group said in a statement.

Toyota declined to comment as the company evaluates the lawsuit.

The other automakers had no immediate comment. David Cole, chairman of the Center for Automotive Research, a nonprofit organization that provides public research and forecasts, said it would be tough for the industry to meet demands from some critics immediately.

Adoption of diesel engine emissions technology or gasoline-electric hybrids comes at great cost, and improving gas mileage also likely means smaller lighter vehicles, trade-offs that are not attractive to consumers, he added.

"These are not free technologies, they are very expensive," Cole said. "Most people are price sensitive."

In the complaint, Lockyer charges that vehicle emissions have contributed significantly to global warming and have harmed the resources, infrastructure and environmental health of the most populous state in the United States.

Lockyer - a Democratic candidate for state treasurer in the November election - said the lawsuit states that under federal and state common law the automakers have created a public nuisance by producing "millions of vehicles that collectively emit massive quantities of carbon dioxide."

Carbon dioxide emissions and other greenhouse gases have been linked to global warming.

Shares of GM (up $0.31 to $31.71, Charts), Ford (up $0.11 to $7.77, Charts) and Toyota (up $0.90 to $107.26, Charts) were all higher in afternoon trading Wednesday on the New York Stock Exchange.
I read both of these today, and died a little more on the inside. On the one hand we have a scientist, who's views I agree with (I have a degree in Ecology so I do have some backround there) and on the other the state of California suing ....auto makers.

Its things like this that make me want to start to horde amunition.
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Last edited by Ustwo; 09-20-2006 at 06:10 PM..
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I don't understand the last sentence at all, but....

This is certainly something under contention. I think it makes perfect sense that the average temperature of the Earth has fluctuated, historically, and there's no reason to think it would be stable now.

At the same time, human input into the ecosystem can't be having NO impact. There's been lots of research to demonstrate that our pollution is contributing to global warming.

Then you have to wonder about the anti-warming camp's political motives. It seems clearly economical in nature. Big business wants to deny that global warming is happening, or that it will have the impact that it is alledged to have, because that would render them vulnerable to lawsuits and liability and force them to change to less profitable products and means of production. They've pumped lots of money into their buddies in Washington to keep the nation's official head in the sand. So I'm automatically skeptical about anything that bucks the standard, scientifically accepted understanding of warming and its causes.
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:23 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Whether or not you agree with the liberal opinion on the effect of greenhouse gases on our ecology, I think you can agree that the exhaust from fossil fuels is dangerous. I am living proof. The only members of my family with asthma were born and raised in major metropolitan areas. All members born and raised in metro areas have asthma, none born and raised in suburban or rural areas have it. Aparently, my family isn't an anomaly:
Study Links Air Pollution and Asthma
Researchers Link Childhood Asthma to Exposure to Traffic-related Pollution
Researchers Link Childhood Asthma to Exposure to Traffic-related Pollution(again)
Link Strengthened between Air Pollution, Asthma
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:29 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Whether or not you agree with the liberal opinion on the effect of greenhouse gases on our ecology, I think you can agree that the exhaust from fossil fuels is dangerous. I am living proof. The only members of my family with asthma were born and raised in major metropolitan areas. All members born and raised in metro areas have asthma, none born and raised in suburban or rural areas have it. Aparently, my family isn't an anomaly:
Study Links Air Pollution and Asthma
Researchers Link Childhood Asthma to Exposure to Traffic-related Pollution
Researchers Link Childhood Asthma to Exposure to Traffic-related Pollution(again)
Link Strengthened between Air Pollution, Asthma
Lots of people have been killed by cars too.

I'd not be surprised if there was a link between asthma and polution, but thats not what they are suing for. They are basically blaming automakers for causing global warming and costing California money. Its almost to inane to be insane.

Are they going to sue the cattle industry next? Methane production from cow farts is far worse in terms of greenhouse gasses than CO2. Perhaps they should sue people next for breathing and farting.

I thought it got silly when cities tried to sue gun companies, but this is assinine.
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Old 09-20-2006, 06:43 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Lots of people have been killed by cars too.

I'd not be surprised if there was a link between asthma and polution, but thats not what they are suing for. They are basically blaming automakers for causing global warming and costing California money. Its almost to inane to be insane.

Are they going to sue the cattle industry next? Methane production from cow farts is far worse in terms of greenhouse gasses than CO2. Perhaps they should sue people next for breathing and farting.

I thought it got silly when cities tried to sue gun companies, but this is assinine.
They refuse to find alternate fuels because it's more cost effective in the short term to simply run out all the oil on the planet. *If* someone were to make the car that runs on water and exhausts vapor, life would be a lot easier for everyone; everyone, that is, except oil execs. The reason I support their suit, besides my personal opinions about global warming, is that the oil execs need to understand that there are people out there that can and will hold them responsible for their actions, even if the federal government can't. It's easy to bribe a few government officials. It's damn near impossible to bribe everyone effected by their decision.
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:19 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
They refuse to find alternate fuels because it's more cost effective in the short term to simply run out all the oil on the planet. *If* someone were to make the car that runs on water and exhausts vapor, life would be a lot easier for everyone; everyone, that is, except oil execs. The reason I support their suit, besides my personal opinions about global warming, is that the oil execs need to understand that there are people out there that can and will hold them responsible for their actions, even if the federal government can't. It's easy to bribe a few government officials. It's damn near impossible to bribe everyone effected by their decision.
Then why don't they just outlaw petroleum sales in California?
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:50 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Then why don't they just outlaw petroleum sales in California?
Because even though California is forward thinking and adapting to new sources of fuel, the transfer to a system that's no longer dependant on fossil fuels is going to take some time. San Jose has public busses that run on hydrogen, though.
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Old 09-20-2006, 07:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I agree with u2 that California's suit against the auto makers is misdirected as the auto makers are only rising to the minimum requirements of the federal government. This administration continues to subsidize SUV's and large trucks if they merely claim to be biofuel compatible. It would seem unimportant that those fuels can only be found in a small segment of the cornbelt, or that these vehicles are gas hogs.

California would make a more direct hit to the auto makers if they implemented a luxury/penalty tax to those vehicles that are contributing to the oil problem in Cal.


U2 on global warming? Naw, why bother?
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Are they going to sue the cattle industry next? Methane production from cow farts is far worse in terms of greenhouse gasses than CO2. Perhaps they should sue people next for breathing and farting.
This might not be far off... if you read this press release from Cornell University, you'll see the high cost of producing beef: "...beef cattle production requires [a fossil] energy input to protein output ratio of 54:1." And this is compared to the 4:1 ratio of producing chicken meat. Oh, and let's not leave out the mention of the 100,000 litres of water required to produce each kilogram of grain-fed beef.

But I am, of course, changing the subject... so: I think California is suing these auto companies to raise the profile of the issues of global warming and pollution. I really don't think they intend on winning a case of this magnitude on the basis of a theory that is still being debated. (Just as with evolutionary theory, global warming and the human impact on global warming will remain a theory for years to come. But does this mean we should ignore it completely?) These auto companies will probably get the picture, but they'll realize that many of their customers might feel alienated if nothing is done about auto emissions, regardless of the outcome.

The way this looks to the public is that California thinks auto companies don't care about the health and well being of people and the environment, so they need to be taken to court in order to make them at least listen.

As a sidebar, what do you guys think about Ford hurting so badly these days? Any correlation to their long-standing, horrible track record on gas emissions?
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:29 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
As a sidebar, what do you guys think about Ford hurting so badly these days? Any correlation to their long-standing, horrible track record on gas emissions?
I believe that, and the focus on *BIG* vehicles that no longer sell due to gas prices have been the problems for Ford, and our other auto companies as well. They have relied for so long on our "oil addiction" that little forward thinking has initiated more economical vehicles.
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Old 09-20-2006, 08:47 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
As a sidebar, what do you guys think about Ford hurting so badly these days? Any correlation to their long-standing, horrible track record on gas emissions?
Fords are crap.
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:51 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
Fords are crap.
We agree!!

Bill Lockyer has been one of the biggest cream-cheese dildos on the planet for quite some time now.

Nice to see he's consistent.
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Old 09-20-2006, 10:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
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A Boeing exec took over young Ford's position. I can't say that will promise much of an improvement.

(Former Boeing employee)
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:07 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Classic stuff. First global warming was a myth. Now it's real, but we aren't causing it and even if we were causing it there isn't anything we can do about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Are they going to sue the cattle industry next? Methane production from cow farts is far worse in terms of greenhouse gasses than CO2. Perhaps they should sue people next for breathing and farting.
Nice try, but mostly wrong. On a ton for ton basis, yes, the CO2 equivalent for methane is 21 (one ton of methane is worth 21 tons CO2). However, the amount of methane generated via livestock is negligible to the amount of CO2 generated just from vehicle exhaust, let alone total fossil fuel usage.

Look at the 2004 National Emissions Inventory. Fossile fuel burning accounts for more than 5600 Tg (million metric tons) CO2 equivalent. All methane sources together account for 557 Tg with landfills and natural gas systems making up about half of that alone. Continuously bringing up methane from cows is either ignorant or trolling. Since I know you are an intelligent person, I'm going with trolling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
I really don't think they intend on winning a case of this magnitude on the basis of a theory that is still being debated. (Just as with evolutionary theory, global warming and the human impact on global warming will remain a theory for years to come. But does this mean we should ignore it completely?)
Don't take this personally, but you need to read up on what a theory is. If you are implying that when there is enough evidence then they will become laws and not theories then you are wrong.

For the record, I think the lawsuit is silly and shortsighted. If CA really wanted to do something beneficial rather than attention-whoring, they would institute stricter fuel efficiency requirements. Start with attainable baseline llevels for each vehicle class and raise those levels annually. Existing vehicles would of course be grandfathered in but if a new vehicle cannot meet the current efficiency standards it cannot be sold in CA.

Last edited by kutulu; 09-21-2006 at 12:14 AM..
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Old 09-21-2006, 04:20 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
Don't take this personally, but you need to read up on what a theory is. If you are implying that when there is enough evidence then they will become laws and not theories then you are wrong.
Don't worry, I don't take anything personally.

I'm suggesting that some theories are stronger than others. It's easier for people to accept evolutionary theory than it is to accept global warming right now. Evolution has the advantage over global warming by a few more years of study. The main debate over evolution right now is that between science and faith. The main debate over global warming is between members of the scientific community. Until it becomes more commonly accepted, it will remain a theory in a more traditional sense of the word.
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Old 09-21-2006, 05:19 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Speaking of evolution, a recent survey just named Turkey as the country least accepting of the theory (don't worry, U.S.A was right behind at number 2). Yay for my people! Yay for science!!
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Old 09-21-2006, 07:27 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Rather than provide intelligent discourse due to my lack of comprehensive knowledge regarding global warming (I'm not up to date on the latest studies,) I'm going to reiterate my position that we should saw off California and allow it to float out into the Pacific until it becomes someone else's problem.
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Old 09-21-2006, 08:05 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru
The main debate over global warming is between members of the scientific community. Until it becomes more commonly accepted, it will remain a theory in a more traditional sense of the word.
That is the impression that the right would lead us to beleive but it's more like 90% vs. 10%. Global warming is vastly accepted among the scientific community. The right likes to call it junk science but the majority that accepts global warming has stood strong in their position while the detractors keep giving up ground (first it was false; then it is happening, but not human caused; now some of the right says it may be partially human caused but there is nothing we can do to stop it). It reminds me of the Catholic Church during the Dark Ages.
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Old 09-21-2006, 02:42 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
That is the impression that the right would lead us to beleive but it's more like 90% vs. 10%. Global warming is vastly accepted among the scientific community. The right likes to call it junk science [...]
Well, until this "right" realizes that we must do something to clean this up, it will remain a traditionally perceived theory (i.e. to certain areas of the public) that doesn't yet require the attention it deserves. When those in power find out that global warming and its effects are costing too much money and productivity, they will probably then do something. Until then, the debate is still open. We need more direct evidence that the public (i.e. those who believe the "right") can't refute.

We probably aren't that far off from a scientific slam dunk that would be embarrasing for anyone (yes, even the right) to disbelieve... like when the earth was revealed to be a bit more round than at once thought.
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:17 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Regardless of the debate of Global Warming yes or no...

I do agree with the first article, that all points of view must be considered on the chance they are right. That's how scientific progress works.

As for the law suit... absolutely misdirected. They would have been better to aim at the pollution caused by emissions and the associated health issues. The industry needs pressure to make more efficient cars. They have proven this time and again.

They will make their products the cheapest before they will make them the best (Corvair anyone?).
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Old 09-22-2006, 04:53 AM   #21 (permalink)
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unless an individual makes his/her own concerted effort to keep emissions down, they have no business decrying the global warming issue or supporting Lockyers lawsuit on the pretense of 'alternative fuel' sources. How many of you who bitch and moan about mans effect on global warming drive a vehicle? Is that vehicle a efficient vehicle? Do you make unnecessary trips for fun? Do you walk? use public transportation?

There are many more questions everyone should be asking themselves before being able to jump on the bandwagon and try forcing the automakers and oil companies to switch their entire industry over to someting that you THINK will improve the environment. Also, instead of forcing an industry to change their business, why don't you go out and be innovative in providing a safe and cheap form of energy?

One more thing, it doesn't surprise me that this comes out of California despite the large numbers of intelligent people out there. There must be something in the water.
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Old 09-22-2006, 08:09 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dksuddeth
Also, instead of forcing an industry to change their business, why don't you go out and be innovative in providing a safe and cheap form of energy
I agree with most of your post but that sentence is a bit silly. Common people do not have the knowledge or access to the means to conduct the type of research needed to develop alternative energy sources. Be realistic.
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Old 09-22-2006, 09:31 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu
I agree with most of your post but that sentence is a bit silly. Common people do not have the knowledge or access to the means to conduct the type of research needed to develop alternative energy sources. Be realistic.
whats not realistic about it? If you don't have the means to develop a source on your own, then what you do is contribute to the form of energy consumption you wish to see used. It's not that difficult to fathom. If someone is so dead set against vehicle emissions because of the environment, then use public transportation, bicycles, or walk. Buy a hybrid for yourself or anything but using a gasoline powered vehicle.
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Old 09-22-2006, 11:45 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Just a follow up.

Turns out the lawsuit was filed by the AG who is up for re-election. Typical for the land of fruits and nuts.

And if anyone feels they want to start a global warming thread, please fire away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu


Nice try, but mostly wrong. On a ton for ton basis, yes, the CO2 equivalent for methane is 21 (one ton of methane is worth 21 tons CO2). However, the amount of methane generated via livestock is negligible to the amount of CO2 generated just from vehicle exhaust, let alone total fossil fuel usage.
A new study in Canada found about 20 different ways to reduce methane and nitrous oxide emissions from livestock—each of them capable of cutting these emissions by one-third. North America has more than 100 million cattle, hundreds of millions of hogs and feeder pigs, and more than 2 billion chickens, together emitting billions of tons of CO2 equivalent greenhouse gasses every year.

The Canadian authors, Karin Wittinberg and Dinah Boadi of the University of Manitoba, say that such methane reduction strategies should be a top priority in any greenhouse gas reduction effort.


Methane is 13% of the greenhouse gasses produced, thats 13% by volume but 21X more potent. The biggest emmiters are land fills, natural gas, and animal digestion. Wouldn't it make sense to start with these systems being you get the most 'bang' for your buck?
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Last edited by Ustwo; 09-22-2006 at 12:04 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 09-22-2006, 12:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Typical for the land of fruits and nuts.
Remember when you got mad becuase I suggested you were a bigot?
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:04 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Remember when you got mad becuase I suggested you were a bigot?
Lighten up Francis.
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:07 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
Lighten up Francis.
I understand that you were using the term lightly, but just a head's up: gays don't like to be called fruits and liberals don't like to be called nuts, and some of the people in both groups are not fans of trail mix.

/threadjack
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Old 09-22-2006, 01:11 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
I understand that you were using the term lightly, but just a head's up: gays don't like to be called fruits and liberals don't like to be called nuts, and some of the people in both groups are not fans of trail mix.

/threadjack
I call 9/11 conspiracy theorists nuts, not liberals, I call them mistaken
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Old 09-22-2006, 03:55 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Methane is 13% of the greenhouse gasses produced, thats 13% by volume but 21X more potent. The biggest emmiters are land fills, natural gas, and animal digestion. Wouldn't it make sense to start with these systems being you get the most 'bang' for your buck?
Methane does not account for 13% of greenhouse gas emissions. Did you look at the links I had posted? After adjusting the pollutants into CO2 equivalent (ie including the factor of 21), emissions just from fossil fuels outnumber methane emissions by 10:1. Again, it is a small source compared to fossil fuel useage.

For the record, methane emissions from landfills are controlled now. Landfills that emit more than 50Mg/yr of NMOCs are required to operate gas collection and control systems (collect and flare the gas). Some add a genset and use it for electricity generation instead of just flaring it.
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Old 09-22-2006, 06:23 PM   #30 (permalink)
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We seem to be hell bent on taxing tobacco products out of existence. If California is serious about internal combustion engines being a major cause of global warming why not tax those items like cigarettes. Lets see, cigarette prices are about 10 times higher than they used to be so a $20,000 car would cost about $200,000, that should but a stop to many of those polluting our environment. Also gasoline at about $25 per gal would discourage it's use.
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Old 09-23-2006, 07:58 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
Lighten up Francis.
Off topic, but, nice Stripes reference.
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