Ethanol Fuel (E85) - Would you use it?

[lindalove]

I'm just curious as to the opinions and thoughts of TFPers about E85 fuel.

Basically, it's a blend of fuel that is 85% ethanol (made from corn at the moment) and 15% unleaded gas. Many late-model domestic cars can run on it (and many people who own them may or may not even know this) and are also known as flex-fuel capable. Here is a link with all E85-capable cars.

Right now E85 fuel is pretty pricey because there is a huge shortage of it, although more ethanol plants are set to go online in the next 12 months, which will reduce the price. Also, as the technology advances and the production of it becomes more efficient, the price should drop.

Right now retailers are beginning to introduce the product to market. Most likely you DON'T have a station near you, although that will probably change in the next year or 2. Here is a database of current stations - http://www.e85refueling.com/

The biggest disadvantage to the consumer besides the current market price (which is expected to go down eventually, although it is competitive with regular gasoline, and some retailers are actually selling it at a temporary loss in order to make it competitive) is that it is less efficient than petroleum gas (except for on acceleration), and will require more fill-ups, most likely.

My questions are:

Would you consider using E85 fuel if it was cheaper per gallon than regular gas?

If it was about the same per gallon as regular gas? (Though, keep in mind it's less efficient.)

Even if it were more per gallon than regular gas?

And why?

I would use it even if it's just a little more than petrol gas since it's a cleaner burning fuel. I wonder what the long term ramifications for using this type of fuel will be, though it should be better than using fossil fuel, like we do now.

[laconic1]

I would use it if it were significantly cheaper, and by significantly I mean enough to more than offset the loss in fuel economy. Other than that I just don't see the benefit. The automakers that have built in the E85 capability have done so primarily with the knowledge that the capability will almost certainly never be used. They did so primarily because of loopholes in the Corporate Average Fuel Economy regulations that allow them to take a fleet that may not meet the standards and enable them to squeak by. Sorry I don't have time right now to dig up links to the sources for this. I feel that E85 could certainly be a viable option, but right now it is more about politics than actually making a difference

[stevo]

I would use it if it was cheaper than regular gas. Not on a per gallon basis, but on a per-mile basis. If the per-mile cost of E85 was equal to unleaded 87 then I'd be indifferent, and as long as it costs more per mile to run my car on E85 I'm not going to buy it.

[Psycho Dad]

Were my vehicle able to use it, it was available and more economical than traditional fuels, I'd be on it depreciation on an SUV.

[Rekna]

In South Dakota E85 is about $2 less per gallon than regular gas..... I'd definatly run it if I lived there.

[hotzot]

sure what the hell, I'd rather have an electric or water car.

[JamesB]

Give it a couple of years and you will NOT have a choice but to use it .

[guthmund]

According to the website...

Ethanol has less energy content than gasoline. However, E85 also has a much higher octane (ranging from 100 to 105) than gasoline. FFVs are not optimized to E85, so they experience a 10-15% drop in fuel economy. This will vary based on the way one drives, the air pressure in the tires, and additional driving conditions..

For comparison purposes, aggressive driving habits can result in a 20% loss and low tire pressure can reduce mileage by 6%. Research indicates Ford FFVs experience a 5% horsepower gain on E85. The range of any particular vehicle is dependent on the size of the fuel tank and driving habits. Current Ford Taurus FFVs have an 18-gallon fuel tank and will normally travel 350 miles between refuelings.

It's all academic as far as I'm concerned since I don't own a vehicle on the list. However, if I did, E85 would have to be considerably cheaper than gasoline to get me to the pump. I'm all for alternative fuels, but if I have to pay just as much (or worse...considerably more) for E85 and suffer the 10-15% loss in fuel economy, then I don't see much point in using the stuff.

[Brewmaniac]

If I could I would use it if pump prices were equal, i'd eat the difference in fuel economy to help the save the planet!

Until we are willing to make sacrifices future generations are doomed!

[Dane Bramage]

if it was readily available and comperably priced, sure... why not.

[genuinegirly]

Most cars aren't designed to work on the stuff. It's going to be harder on the system and your vehicle's "health" will suffer.

If I were capable of re-working my vehicle myself so that it could handle ethanol, yes, I will go for it when it is readily available. Even if it is more expensive than gasolene.

[xepherys]

I'll look for the link in a bit, but I was under the impression that the manufacture and waste disposal of E85 made it no more environmentally friendly than standard petro (which still contains ethanol, just not as much). Since this is the drawing factor, that is "burns cleaner", are we really helping if the production is grossly less efficient? Even if it's cheaper?

Hmm, check out this link:

http://digg.com/environment/Why_Wal_...o_sell_ethanol

It has some info that I was trying to portray above...

[Rekna]

The other drawing factor is that it requires less oil thus reducing our dependance on foreign oil. Also since the ethonal is produced within the US the money goes back to the US thus providing a big boost to the economy.

[ngdawg]

Many stations here have signs that say 'contains 10% ethanol'. Lately I've noticed my car pinging and hesitating using regular gas, so this week I had to get plus, which is 20c more a gallon.
I don't know if this 10% mix is the problem; I have noticed that my car is running better on the plus, but the cost isn't worth it. Proverbial rock and hard place, I guess.

[streak_56]

I would make the change easily if I could afford such a vehicle.

[raeanna74]

I would only use it if I had a newer car designed for ethanol use. Ethanol is a slightly corrosive substance. Any natural materials used in an engine such as seals and plugs can be corroded. Ethanol has a higher oxygen content than gasoline so it can cause other problems. Ethanol in it's pure form - not mixed with fuel - can kill a standard gasoline engine.

If I did have a car that was designed for ethanol use I would use it. Why not. There are a number of usable byproducts made in the production of Ethanol. My only questions are, Is gasoline used to run the machinery that produces ethanol? How much is used versus how much ethanol is made? and are we using just as much gasoline just to make this expensive fuel?

[Jack1.0]

I would use E85 even if it were more expensive than gas. It is the only short term alternate energy source that Is viable for use right now. I only need two things: a vehicle that can run on E85, and a station within 200 miles that can sell me E85.

[oberon]

If you had to buy another car, I think it'd be better to get a more fuel efficient car than to get one that can do E85. You'll reduce America's dependency on foreign petrol AND have lower fuel bills, most likely. Are there any E85 compatible vehicles that get better than, say, 40 miles a gallon? These days, it makes no sense to buy a passenger car that gets less.

As for the merits of E85 itself... the studies I've seen show that ethanol produced from corn is rather inefficient, and even if we use all the arable land in the US to produce corn for ethanol, it would not be enough to meet the demand. Ethanol from sugar is more promising, but politically infeasible. I think improving vehicle efficiency will have more of an effect on petrol use in the US than switching to E85.

That said, if it was cheaper I'd use it.

[Mojo_PeiPei]

My only gripe about E85 is that I hear it takes 4 gallons of water to produce one gallon of E85. Don't know if that is true though.

[KungFuGuy]

i would defiantely use it. the majority of brazil is already using it as they have an easy means to make ethanol from sugar cane. its also a lot cheaper.

the distribution of ethanol shouldn't be terribly expensive to implement either, as it can be pumped using the same type of pumps used for gasoline and diesel.

[snowy]

Originally Posted by oberon

As for the merits of E85 itself... the studies I've seen show that ethanol produced from corn is rather inefficient, and even if we use all the arable land in the US to produce corn for ethanol, it would not be enough to meet the demand. Ethanol from sugar is more promising, but politically infeasible. I think improving vehicle efficiency will have more of an effect on petrol use in the US than switching to E85.

That said, if it was cheaper I'd use it.

One upside I see to using more ethanol is that the corn lobby will set its sights (and has set its sights) on government subsidies of the ethanol industry. More corn for ethanol=less corn for high fructose corn syrup, to my thinking. I know that idea is flawed, because the corn lobby wants to have their cake and eat it too.

Personally, I'd rather see more biodiesel. It's easier to produce and environmentally-friendly, especially since you can make it from used cooking oil.

But I'd rather use anything over foreign oil.

[cj2112]

E85 is nothing but hype, it's not good for the environment, nor is it cost effective. Check out this article http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-promises.html

[thingstodo]

Sounds like the CO2 benefits aren't really there. If they were, I might pay a penny or two/gallon more ona mile/gallon basis.

[ozahs]

I'm all for anything that reduces our dependance on fossil fuels, but it seems most people are very sensitive about price. If they can make it cost similar to regular gas on an mpg basis, then I can see it really start to take off. From the standpoint of our economy, it seems like a win/win.

[hotzot]

I buy the cheepest gas, I wouldn't care if it were rat butts. If it makes my car go and the milage is the same I don't care. I remember back in the 60's and 70's they promiced that we'd all have automated cars and driving using nuclear fuel. What the hell happened?

[cyrnel]

Three things are needed before I'll take it seriously:

-My car has to like it.
-Cost/gal doesn't mean anything without correction for efficiency loss.
-Freeze or kill the corn grower subsidies. I won't pay more on that side to make E85 look cheap at the pumps.

[ziadel]

the engine in my truck was made in 1975, ethanol would destroy every seal it came into contact with.

[Demeter]

I would use it as long as it wasn't much more expensive than regular fuel. We all need to do our part, right?

[Deltona Couple]

I may be wrong here, but it seems that everyone is not looking at the broad scheme of things here. REmember our history? There was a time where everyone FREAKED that we would be driving in cars with UNLEADED GAS? OMG my car wont run good at ALL if I have unleaded gas! (Leaded gas was used in older cars with solid steel valves and heads to protect the valve and valve seats btw) Now I bet you wouldn't find many people who even knew we had leaded gas several years back. Our world is changing and evolving, and we need to evolve with it. Maybe E85 isn't the answer to EVERY energy problem, but who knows, in several years when you have more enigineers working on designing cars/trucks for ethanol, they might stumble on something that DOES make it more efficient. Remember the days when people thought that there was no way automobiles would EVER relace the horse because they were inefficient and unreliable? The only way to find solutions for problems is to TRY something. Maybe It wont work, but maybe it will. I work at a dealership, and have been learning about ethanol based fuels, and we are working on ways to make the vehicles more efficient, but it takes TIME and WORK. This country is too full of people who expect INSTANT gratification. Sit back and relax, go with the flow people...Buy one tank of E85, then on the next fill up go back to regular, until things get more efficient. Production costs may be slightly higher, but when are they NOT for a new product? For those that are old enough, remember that unleaded gasoline cost more than leaded gas, because of the increase in production costs? But we still converted, because EVENTUALLY the automakers were able to integrate the vehicles. It wasn't an INSTANT solution, it takes time.

I personally support it (E85), because history in economics shows that competition drives prices down. Think about it, if only 20% of the US converted to ethanol, the big oil companies will se a substantial loss in the pocket for them. In order to try to keep atleast SOME of their customers, they will need to lower their prices to compensate....Basic economy, supply goes up, prices go down, and competition breeds lower prices. It's not a guess, its economic historic fact.

Also, if you look at some of the news, to help support Ethanol, the US government has allowed people to actually manufacture and use the old fashioned STILL! What do you think they do at the ethanol plants? It's pure grain alcohol! MOONSHINE! (of course in order to operate a still you have to sign an agreement with the government promising to put in an additive that poisons the mixture so you can't drink it, but who says you cant pull out a quart or two BEFORE for um...Medicinal purposes!) As far as the cost? I have researched this recently when I heard about it. The average still can be made for about $250, and production costs to manufacture? Is in the neighborhood of a 60 to 90 cents per gallon, depending on where you purchase your corn/grain from, and use propane for the processing. Now if you were to calculate out things, say 85 gallons of Ethanol to 15 gallons of gasoline to make your own mixture (Yes it can be done safely) then you will have 100 gallons of E85 Ethanol. If you paid $3.00 for the gasoline, and max cost of $.90 for the Ethanol, then 100 gallons cost you $121.50, for an average cost of $1.22 per gallon. Thats enough to make me switch!

Now the above paragraph isn't perfect, but it gives you an idea of how it CAN be done by an enterprising person. Imagine if you had your own farm, what you could make? Personally I think that if you had your own farm in Montana and a large still, you could have your own gas station and make some good money!

Again this isn't perfect, and I am not saying it is for EVERYONE, but remember how things work in the world, hell half of the discoveries in the WORLD were made by accident when trying to create something else. Perfect example? WD-40, everyone knows what it is, but did you know that it was a mistake? WD-40 stands for "water displacement sample 40". It was originally designed to help remove water from places where you didn't want it. But look at what it is used for now? And the guy who made it is RICH!...lol

[samiam]

I have driven an E85 vehicle for a while and it was great. couldn't tell the difference between it and a similiar car on gas. However, it was specifically tuned for E85. If it were available and within the same price range, I would definitely use it.