Seafoam is your friend. There are a few threads in Motors about it. Just otu of curiosity, what chain did the service? Most will run it so that no smoke appears that could scare the customer (there's absolutely no way to convince someone who knows nothign about cars that the cloud of white smoke is a good thing, and actually better than no smoke at all.)
If your transmission is slipping, you're fucked, anyway. You should have had the preventative maintenence done so it didn't get that way. You also have waaaaay too much faith in people if you think that the average driver will notice a gradually appearing mechanical problem.

Unfortunatly, isnt that the truth...

I know my car pretty well, and I'm anal about any noise, vibration, shudder, and odd feel I get. Luckily, I'm educated enough, and smart enough to usually deduce where it might be comming from, and take a look at it myself. If I notice anything fishy, I get a second opinion by my favorite mechanic... My father. And then him and I do the work.

To all... If you have the opportunity, next time something needs work on your car (even if its just brakes and an oil change), and you have a family member, or friend who can do the work for you... Tag along, learn how to do it. In the process, you will learn enough to recognize a lot more problems than you think. Ask questions, hell, even do the work, just have him/her show you what to do.

That's part of the thing with my car. It's a 2006 RL, so it's under warranty for the next four and a half years, with the powertrain for two more after that. With everything but basic maintenance taken care of, I can't see a good reason to not take it in for all scheduled maintenance. I don't know enough about cars to really tell if I'm getting scammed, though, so either Grace or Sissy takes care of that part.

Gilda

As long as you've got someone to double-check the work (Grace or Sissy) and you're still under warranty, keep going to the dealership, but keep your eyes and ears open for a good 3rd party mecahnic once your warranty runs out. :)

Want a way for non-car-geeks to make sure this doesn't happen to you ?

Watch them as they perform the service, and ask questions. Keep it friendly while you are talking to them so they don't see you as a nag (talk to them more like a friend than an employee). If you are hanging around every step of the way, they will be a lot less likely to skip something since there is an eye-witness. If they do not allow you in the garage to watch, be VERY suspect of the work they are doing. There is no OSHA standard that says you cannot be in there with them. The only restriction is that you cannot be under the car (in the pit or beneath a lifted car).

If you are worried about them putting used oil in your car, there is a simple way to avoid it. Request a non-standard oil type. If you ask for a Synthetic Blend, or Synthetic oil, I can almost guarantee you will see them reach for a brand new bottle and break the seal on it as you stand there. If you don't want to change your car to expensive synthetics, you can simply request a different 'weight' of oil than what they have in the machine. Most oil change places will only have your standard 10w30 or 10w40 on-tap. Any different weights will need to come from a bottle, and will generally not cost extra. If you do request a different weight oil, keep in mind, the lower numbered weights (5w30, and 5w20) are for newer cars or for cold weather, while higher weights (15w40 and 20w50) are for older cars and warmer weather. Either that, or you can just bring your own oil and have them use it. Typically cars will need 3.5 to 4 litres, while trucks, or larger V-8 cars will use 4.5-6 litres. You can check the car's manual to see how much it takes. The only downside of bringing your own is that some shops will not warranty their work if you do not use their oil.

That video is pretty messed up but the fact that Jiffy Lube's oil changes are $38 is the biggest ripoff in my opinion. :thumbsup:

MrSelfDestruct,

That's a great post there.

I do my own work, and I think you just saved me a lot of typing; there's nothing you typed I don't agree with.

Just wanted to give you a :) for putting your effort into the thread and getting accurate info out there.

One reason we bought a Saturn was that there is less history of thousands of makes and models to know. So it seems to me that most Saturn dealership people are well trained since they don't have to know that many models. But still I ask for all used parts in a paper bag. One guy tried to hand me some leaky busted part by hand, and I said, "I need a paper bag", so he went and got one.

I went to Firestone once for a oil change and they left the oil cap off and I drove off. So now I always check for the oil cap before driving away. The smart oil change techs will put the oil cap in such a place so that the hood cannot close. That way it will always be put back on.

I went to a Jiffy Lube clone place in Seattle as that was the closest place that AAA would tow my car. The clutch needed to be done and so I let them do it. The car broke down on the highway after 5 miles from the repair place. Needless to say I had to almost force the manager to test drive the vehicle until they fixed the grinding noises at high speeds. Thank goodness for AAA. Jiffy Lube and their clones are for oil changes only and only if I have a coupon.

We also have a geo metro and we have anti-war stickers on it. Sometimes I have gotten shitty service and I often wonder if some uber patriotic repair person doesn't like me. I guess I now understand why some people never put stickers on their car.

Another thing about cars I learned from my gpa, was that batteries can last longer if you trim the terminals every so often if they get corroded. He had a little tool with metal brushes and a blade to trim the metal. Worked like a charm and I would assume that it might prevent some electrical problems.

The geo metro recently got a new water filter, and I got fcked with a 400 dollar bill. I wish I had read this thread earlier so I could have taken it to some other place for $250. But the geo metro water filter lasted 16 years so that is good right ?

Jonathan

One last thing about dealerships. Try all the dealerships in your area and then you will get in on all their coupon mailings. Most of the dealerships take competetor coupons.

Also some Saturn dealerships wash my windows, or vaccuum out the driver side foot well, or sometimes have even washed our Saturn for no apparent reason. Some even have free popcorn, which is awesome since I hate coffee. Keeping the customer happy I guess. (^:

Jonathan

While this is techincally correct, it's not the entire story. OSHA only covers guidelines for workers, not the general public. Insurance companies, particularly liability companies, do have much different guidelines. My first job in insurance was for a used auto dealers program for Chicago dealers. Lots of them had garages as well as car lots, and we covered those as well. Anyone that let the general public onto a shop floor was automatically declined. If we found out that you answered the question incorrectly, that was grounds for immediate cancellation. Speaking as the resident self-proclaimed insurance expert, allowing the general public into an area as busy and potentially dangerous as a typical garage is a very bad idea. All it takes is one person tripping over a misplaced wrench and tumbling into a pit to make you realize that $1,000,000 isn't that much money after all.

I grew up in a very small town in Texas. About a year ago I was down there so I had my oil changed (I knew the family who owned it), and next to me was an import car with Anti-War stickers all over the back (clearly from out of town).

Needless to say the son of the owner was fighting in Iraq, and the father was a two-tour Vet of Vietnam. He did not mess with the car in any way, he just simply stated he was not going to service the car. I heard through the grapevine he went to 2-3 other towns and everyone refused to service the car.

That's why I dont have any bumper stickers on my truck (save for one UT).

Tssssssss... Wouldn't get service from me... :p

Edit: To make it more clear.

Except that if they close the hood hard enough they'll bend it. That can be an expensive repair. Better to just remember to put the damn thing back on ;)

Sorry, but that's idiotic. It's car repair, not the million man march. If you want to be in business, you serve your customers. If you want to make political statements, get your own bumper sticker.

That's kind of my point, that people SHOULD notice gradual changes in their cars.
Example: My car was making a HORRID noise over a year ago. (Horrid to me at least) I knew where it was coming from(right front and a second noise in the rear) and could describe it to a tee. At first, spouse would roll his eyes. The noise continued to get worse, I complained, he put me off. Finally, he 'looked' under the car, announced I needed new struts and center control arm bushings. He was wrong. Struts were fine. What wasn't fine, that he thought I was crazy about, was the passenger side control arm, front stabilizers, center control arm bushings, rear linkage, total cost $1200.
We become complacent and think cars are indestructible and that mechanics 'know' everything. That's how these rip-off artists manage to stay in business-they're banking on the ignorance of so many.
The fact is, I DON'T have much faith in anyone but myself about my car and everyone should think the same way to prevent the very ripoffs this thread is highlighting.

When I had a big lumbering Jeep, I kept a large glass jar for such things. Difficult to explain to the girl I was dating at the time. I guess I should have kept it in the back seat.

Most Saturn service depts. will wash your car. They will also toe the line on honesty, but their charges may be much more, especially if you bring in a non-Saturn vehicle.

The coffee and the popcorn is nice. Once they let me watch a DVD in the back seat of an L300.

I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, at any time, for any reason. If I cannot respect a person because of their views, how can I expect to enter a business agreement that will be fruitful for both parties? Pass on the repair, let another shop deal with a person that has differing ideals. Maybe they can take better care of them.

The first two sentences are very true. The third, as far as I know from my time in an oil change shop, is not.
Unless your car is leaking (in which case you should have the seals replaced) you should be getting synthetic oil anyway.
Canned oil cost an extra $1/quart from us.
Generally, you should just use what your manufacturer recommends. Unless your'e racing, you don't need 20 weight oil, it's only reccommended because the manufactrer wants that extra 1% increase in fuel economy toward CAFE. If you want a perfect example, look at the shared engines (yeah, I know they use different heads, but the rest is pretty much the same,) between Jaguar and Ford/Lincoln. Why is it that an XJ8 will use 15w40 and and an LS or Town Car will use 5w20? Ford is willing to sacrifice engine lifespan for a .3mpg increase.
Thanks
Saturns are unusually easy to work on, surprisingly reliable, and their dealers have a good amount of expertise since everything is built on the same platform (two different engines until the Ecotec and Honda V6 were added, now it's 4 plus one of those with forced induction.
We always did this, because although my manager would compromise stuff like the T-Tech to cut costs, he would not tolerate screwups on the basic oil change. Other locations, however, weren't so good about it.

Entirely unsurprising.
Hmm, all we did ("we" being some of the more intellectual guys there) was laugh at stupid things, contradictory combinations of stickers, and poor grammar on stickers.
Not only should you clean the terminals (pour half a can of coke over the terminals then use that tool, then spray with a can of battery terminal corrosion inhibitor before and after connecting the leads,) Putting an insulating blanket arond the batttery can double or triple the life by preventing engine heat from evaporating your fluid. Keeping the fluid topped off (there are special bottles for this) will also help to maximize life.
I think you mean the water pump, which is a $50 part that is easy to install.

Way beyond that.

My best friend was a mechanic at a couple of GM dealerships. What they would do is when you bring your car in for service, say the wipers aren't working, they will tell you that you need a new module.

The reality was that the fuse was blown (say).

You pay 500 for the new module, but it never goes in your car.

The mechanic keeps the 500 part.

Now, you are thinking, well, what's he going to do with that part?

Answer, the parts department buys it back from him for 15 or 20 cents on the dollar.

Seriously.

How do you like those apples?

I bought a new car from the dealer in April 2005.

The scam they ALWAYS try to pull is to get you to buy into their scheduled maintenance program.

They have:

Shedule A

Schdule B

Schedule C

They all feature oil changes. I believe in oil changes.

After that, they get pretty iffy.

Schedule C features a lot of "Inspection Work", and cleaning, adjusting and lubricating the brake caliper pins. Cost of Schedule C = $399.00.

One of the funny ones was that they would inspect the Air Conditioning. I said to the guy, "well, if the AC doesn't work, I'll know and I'll bring it back to you and you will fix it for free cause the car is still under warrantee.

Why the hell would I possibly pay you to inspect the AC???

Seriously.

Everytime you call, they tell you, "Oh, you are due for Schedule Whatever" and I tell them, no, I just want an oil change. They get all pissy, but I don't give a fuck. When I decline the BS service, they even wrote it on the invoice that I declined Schedule C. I look at the maintenance manual from the manufacturer and none of what the dealership is trying to sell me is on the list.

I believe in changing the oil without fail, change the transmission oil at 50,000 km, and the coolant as well. Change the Air filter when it gets dirty, and the PCV valve and fuel filter every 100,000 km.

Other than that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Don't most warrenties require you to do scheaduled maintence? I'm pretty sure mine does.

Warranties do require scheduled maintenance. However they just require the maintenance listed in the owners manual, which can be quite a different story from the maintenance sold by the repair shops.

I used to work in a GM dealer and we never did anything that bad:eek: A couple of guys did get fired for claiming to do repairs under warranty that they did not do. For example a customer would bring in a car with an oil leak, and it was the oil pan gasket. The tech would clean the engine off, maybe smear a little silicone around the oil pan in a halfhearted effort to slow the leak and send it on its way. When it came back still leaking the tech would claim that the cast aluminum pan was porous and would actually replace the pan, so he would get paid twice to do the job once. Supposedly they turned in the guys name and SS# to GM as a warranty thief when they fired him so he cannot do warranty work at any other GM dealer, but I don't know how true that is.

One thing we were always required to do though was bill out fluids on every repair, whether we needed them or not. For example if I replaced a water pump under warranty I didn't get paid to flush the entire cooling system so I just topped it off. I still had to bill out the full amount of antifreeze for the entire system though, or I got in trouble. Before you know it, I had 10 gallons of unopened antifreeze sitting on my workbench and I got yelled at for having too much laying around. I couldn't win

FIrst off, a quick question to anyone that is more knowledgeable than I about cars....

In 2003, I bought a brand new Ford Mustang. I have heard conflicting information about how often I should change the oil - some people have told me every 2000 miles, others have told me that with a newer vehicle you can go up to 5000 miles. Can anyone clarify?

As far as shady business practices go, about a year and a half after I had purchased my car, my check engine light came on. I brought it to the dealership and asked them to tell me why it was on. They said that they were busy, so they'd inspect the vehicle and I could pick it up at the end of the day.

Later that day I got a call from them and they told me that they hadn't had a chance to inspect it, but would do so first thing in the morning.

To make a long story short, after several calls the next day, I was told that I could pick it up at 4:30 pm.

Originally, I had an estimate of $29.00 or whatever for the inspection. Imagine my surprise when I went there and got slapped with a nearly $900.00 bill. I asked them how in the world I had a bill that high, as I had only wanted an inspection done and it was still under warrently.

Basically, they told me how I had apparently run over a rock or something and it had bounced around under my car and caused a ton of damage, including severing a brake line and partially perforating my fuel lines. I was told they had to replace a fairly large portion of both lines.

Of course, it wasn't covered under warrently, as I had caused the damage.

Although I don't have a ton of experience with cars, it sounded... possible, though not likely. I thought perhaps they were exaggerating a bit, as had my brake line actually been severed, I wouldn't be able to stop. I told them that at the very least they should have called me and gotten permission. I asked to see the old parts, and they had convieniently thrown them away. I then asked to have my car lifted up so I could take a look at the work.

After a bit of bickering - they didn't want to let me under the car for liability reasons - they lifted the car. I could see that there was absolutely no difference anywhere that I could see in the fuel and/or brake lines. I asked the mechanic which area had been replaced, and he pointed to a particular line that ran nearly the length of the vehicle. I asked him why it was so dirty and looked just like the rest of the vehicle's lines - his excuse? The mechanics who worked on my car probably had oil all over their hands from working on cars all day.

Unfortunately for the morons that were trying to rip me off, I had helped the owner's son finance the purchase of a vacation property about a month prior to that. I made a quick call to him standing in the shop, and needless to say, I didn't pay the bill, nor ever take my vehicle back there again...

No word of a lie.

My friend had his own shop at one time and I was there once and there was a huge box of parts and I asked him what was up with that.

Apparently he had offered a better price for all the "extra" parts than the parts department at the dealership was paying, so he had a pile of brand new GM parts at a fraction of the price.

Buyer beware I guess.

Every 6,000 km, which is about every 3,000 miles I would guess.

Interesting story by the way.

As an aside, I just purchased a shop manual for my car. I find them invaluable if you want to fix your own car and money well spent.

It amazes me the level of detail in this manual (4 volumes) as opposed to my old GM manual for my 97 buick (2 volumes) All in all, the manuals weighed 18 pounds (shipping tag)

Wow. Ok, now I'm scared to take my car anywhere for maintenance.

Gilda

Gilda, you should be. Horror stories are endless. At least expect a high vulture:goodguy ratio. Good wrenches know they're diamonds in the rough. Find them by whatever means and treat them like gold.

If you use synthetic, you can go 5000 as long as you use a good filter. Also, don't use the 5w20 crap they tell you to, 10w40 or 15w40 will double your engine life at the cost of ~1mpg and 2 or 3 HP at most

Ok, here's one I've always wondered, since we're talking about it. It doesn't apply to my car, which has a display that says when to change the oil, but why the x months or x miles requirements? I understand the miles, and I understand the different schedules for different driving conditions, but if I'm only driving my car say 300 miles every month, do I really need to still change the oil every six months?

Gilda

Kinda depends Gilda. If those 300 miles involve starting it, driving 3 blocks, then shutting it off, then yeah, you probably need to change it that often. If it's mostly highway miles (not excessive stops/starts, and the car gets fully warmed up before you shut it off) then you're probably good waiting a bit longer.

You change the oil for two reasons: tiny little metal particles from engine wear get into the oil and cause faster engine wear. Changing the oil gets rid of them.

The other big reason is that over time the oil breaks down, you get water in it, etc. In short, your oil is no longer as oily as it was, so it doesn't lubricate as well.

While you won't get as many metal particles in the engine only driving 1800 miles as you would driving 3000 miles (assuming you're not starting it and switching it off excessively), your oil could still absorb water, especially if its humid where you live.


Here's how I look at it. I have a Honda with 300,000 miles on it, and the damn thing still starts every morning and still runs like a champ. I change the oil every 3000 miles/6 months religiously. It's 20 bucks that helps ensure I won't end up paying 1,500 bucks to replace the engine ;)

Thanks. It isn't an issue with my car, because the car's computer says when it needs an oil change, but I did wonder about why the time would matter. Thank you for explaining.

I hope this isn't hijacking things too much, but what is the advantage of Synthetic oil? Grace told me to make sure that they used that when I took it in for its first oil change a couple of months back.

Gilda

Hey, it's a car maintainence thread. The more questions are asked, the more people will know when some jerk tries to rip them off ;)

Synthetic is a lot more expensive, but it's also a lot better at being oil. Regular oil has natural variances in purity, size of molecules, etc. You wouldn't think that'd be a big deal but when you're talking about chunks of metal less than a few thousanths of a milimeter apart, flying past each other six thousand or more times per minute, lubrication qualities become a pretty big deal.

So yes, synthetic is much better than conventional oil. BUT:

Do we really need it in daily driving cars. I think this is the point where Mr. SD and I will diverge in opinion, but I don't think so.

Sure synthetic is a lot better at lubricating, but regular oil lubricates just fine. I'd compare it to replacing your lawn mower with a 5 foot wide professional ride-on mower. Sure the pro mower will bring more to the job, but it's not necessary.

On a pure cost-benefit analysis, regular oil wins hands down. And, again using my honda as an example, I've got over a quarter million miles on the thing, and it's never seen a drop of synthetic in its life.


All that said, and I know this doesn't apply to you Gilda, but it might for others - if you've been running your car on regular oil for a long time and then you switch to synthetic, you might discover that you have oil leaks. Buyer beware ;)

I took my brand new truck to a quick lube place and watched (quite unsurprised) as the tech came into the waiting room to show me the "clogged up" air filter. I asked him if it was typical for an air filter to go bad in 6000 miles and he just shrugged. I then showed him the air flow indicator in the engine, had him put back the "clogged" filter and showed him that it was flowing with no resistance.

His comment after I totally destroyed him? "Well, it LOOKS dirty."

I've been doing oil change, coolant flush since my dad taught me at age 15. Unless you can't tell a screwdriver from a wrench, you can do it yourself. It's good to know these things to avoid scams.

The computer gives you a reasonable estimate of when your car is likely to need an oil change. It's not even close to an exact science.
For a presentation on the difference between regular and synthetic oils, go to www.pennzoilplatinum.com
Yep, we're goin gto disagree. Synthetic oils use superior additive packages that will keep the engine cleaner and prevent sludging much more reliably than conventional oils. The part about leaks is definitely true, since even 20w50 synthetic oil will flow as freely as 5w20 conventional.
If that's a Vortech under your hood, the airflow meter is completely worthless. On a similar note, something like a K&N is entirely unneccesary since only very high displacement or heavily boosted engines are going to come anywhere near the flow capacity of the air filter.

Ok. According to the owner's manual the computer monitors mileage and engine speed to monitor oil life. Isn't this at least an improvement over just picking a number of miles and applying that?

Part of the reason we chose the car we did is the low mainenance--the car's computer says when to take it in for service, and the services are all included for the first three years, and it's not supposed to need anything but fluids, filters and tire rotations until 100,000 miles.

By the way, why the higher numbers on the oil? I was told by the more mechanically inclined in my family to tell them when I took it in for the oil change to substitute 10w-30 for the recommended 5w-20 in the manual. The higher numbers are acceptable, so I did that, but I'm curious as to why?

I could ask Sissy--dad taught her all this stuff when she was like 12, but why rely on family when you can ask some stranger on the internet?

I know the difference between those! Woo hoo!

Gilda

The screwdriver is the one that looks like an ice-pick with an x on the end, right? I can hear it now. Gilda the mechanic they'll call me. Yeah, they'll say, Gilda's cool, she can explain the functional subtext of Dr. Seuss's The Sneeches and she knows which end of the spark plug to hit with the hammer. Ahhh, the wonders of being multi-talented. I'll be a guy magnet . . . oh, wait a minute.

I'm always glad that my mechanic is a good buddy of my dads.

The numbers are the thickness of the oil. In the oil commercials you hear about "viscosity breakdown", basically the oil looks it's stickyness factor. Thinner oils work better in cold environments, as it quickly circulates through the engine at startup to protect the metal-on-metal contacts. Thicker oils tend to take a bit longer (a minute or so) in very cold weather to warm up and go to the engine. That means, however, you're left momentarily with little oil in your engine. Once it's up and running, however, you'll be fine.

Thicker oils (10w40, 20w40) are much better at protecting engines over the long term and in hotter environments. The thicker oil means its viscosity will adhear better to the metal parts and stick more in the minute defection in the metals which provides more lubrication.

Personally I stick to the heavier stuff. Then again I live in the Texas heat, with a truck with a large V8, and have over 140k miles. So the lighter oils simply wouldn't hold up.

5w20 for you sounds extremely lightweight. While it may be in your owners manual, it just seems to me unless your engine is powered by a lawnmower engine you'll want something thicker. At next oil change I'd go with the 10w30 or 40. 10 weight is good for cars and works well in cold weather.

Thanks. I did have them put in the 10w30 synthetic, as per my sister or wife's instructions (I forget which).

Gilda

It's an improvement, but the trend of long service intervals is a worrying indication that manufacturers are willing to trade durability for convenience. The average buyer does not keep a car until it dies, and someone who is going to trade in a car or switch cars when the lease expires won't notice that they get 100,000 miles less on the engine because of increased service intervals.

The other factor is that consumers are simultaneously extraordinarily gullible and extraordinarily cynical. If they go to a dealer that tells them a car can go 10,000 miles between oil changes because it's engineered better than the one sold down the street, they're not going to believe the guy down the street when he tells them that the guy with the 10k interval is lying, because not only is he asking the customer to believe ( the counterintuitive idea) that a company is willingly selling an inferior product and claiming it to be superior because of the inferior trait, but it appears the salesman is also admitting that his product needs more upkeep to work as well as the competition. Toyota had a werious sludge problem with their 3.0L engines because they gave in to pressure from competition to increase service intervals above what was safe.

Another worrying trend; Manufacturers are so desparate to squeeze an extra half a mile per gallon out of their cars that they once again sacrifice engine longevity to appear better to customers. Honda does it for the efficeincy reputation, most do it out of desparation to meet CAFE regulations.

Because I have nothing better to do.
As it should be. I use 10w40 in the summer (car is 15 years old and still going strong, but I kicked it up from the reccommended 10w30 because I drive it hard) and when the temperature is going to be below freezing most of the time, I switch to 0w40, and top it off with progressivley heavier oil as it gets warmer (I burn about a quart every 1000 miles and start to top off with 15w40 then 20w50 before the spring change.)

Another benefit: heavier oils designed for diesel engines (it'll say so on the bottle) have more durable additive packages that will scrub the engine more thoroughly and protect better.

I'm of the opinion now that synthetic oil is a marketing ploy. It fills the motor oil niche for people seeking the upscale purchase option. I don't see a practical justification for paying 5x the cost of regular oil for neglible (non-existent?) results. Your car is going to run fine using 10w40 for the life of the car.

When I was younger, I used synthetic oil and premium gas. I worked on my cars, washed and detailed them every few days, and used to argue to the death with my cynical dad ("oil is oil") over the necessity and superiority of synthetic oil. After I went through a few cars and found out they still run and stay reliable on ordinary 10w-40 and regular gas, I stopped spending more.

On second thought--scratch all that. When I get my Porsche, the gas tank will be filled with premium gas, it will be waxed with the most expensive polymer sealants and carnuba waxes, and the crankcase will be filled to the brim with the most expensive synthetic blend on the market. ;)

It is very different stuff. I think synthetic has been covered well here before, but the oil is much more durable. The additive package tends to be premium to last as long, and it's different because of the inherent characteristics of synth oil. The base oils don't need as many modifiers to maintain viscosity or assist in cleaning since the unmodified oil is superior in these regards. That means much less risk of sludging or reduced lubrication should you go too long or have a "temperature event."

If you run in weird climates - really hot, really cold, or back & forth, or need extended intervals, synth is generally better than the dino equivalents. (not to say there aren't excellent dinos and blends, it's just that they'll tend to fail first in the worst situations) If you're in severe circumstances and you don't or can't stop, synthetic will be your best bet. Each car and driver is different though, so it's still flying blind without at least initial analyses. That means for most people you're right. At 3-5000 mile blind changes, synthetic is mostly Alpo for the car.

That's true but IMO it's not necessary because the extra durability doesn't do you any good. You're still going to get metal particles suspended in the oil, and you're still going to need to get them out of there. So you're still changing the oil every 3-5k. Regular oil still lubricates at that service interval, so what's really the point of switching to synthetic? Even assuming your engine won't last quite as long, you can take the money you saved not using synthetic, and swap in a bigger engine when yours dies ;) But again, I don't think that's going to be an issue anyway because of the many cars with over 250k out there that've been running on dinojuice all their lives.

It's a rare car in good mechanical shape that limits change intervals due to metal particles. If the chunks are big enough to cause damage yet not be picked up by the filter then wrong filter. If there are so many that they're a problem on the first pass then goodbye engine. Metal points to other problems which destroy the oil. Iron or aluminum, or even bearing material are all normal to some degree and point to their own problems of contamination or breakin/abnormal wear. More of a warning sign than a problem in itself.

What generally happens at oil end-of-life is the oil goes out of grade, either thinning or thickening, it becomes unable to deal with the chemistry influences of fuel and water or other contaminants, and it stops protecting your engine. Somwhere along the line it fails and becomes part of the problem. How quickly this happens depends on the specific engine and condition combined with your driving patterns and habits. Some cars are unique and need an exceptional oil to even hit 3K safely.

I agree that there's no guarantee besides fresh oil. Pushing changes out is either a risk done blind, or an extra cost to pay for analysis. I've seen dino's & blends go past 7K, and synth beyond 12K all backed by oil analyses. (my own results and far from extraordinary) So in some sense I think we agree. If your warranty doesn't require it, you aren't running harsh conditions where the improved cold cranking and flash points help, or extending the interval isn't useful, and you don't need a new hobby, dino at 3K is simplicity. I stick to it myself unless I know the engine can go longer.

Hey, isn't there an oil thread around here so we can leave Gilda alone? :)