Jiffy Lube scam and other rip offs.
 

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Back when I was growing up David Horowitz used to do a Fight Back segment on KNBC. I'm glad that there are consumer advocates that still do investigative reporting.

I never do any of these flushes or extra type things, save filter replacements and only after many many many miles on my vehicles. I only have 30,000 miles on my current 6 year old car and I cannot tell you how many times even the dealer service manager has tried to get me to do extras that were not covered by the "inclusive" service I prepurchased with the vehicle.

While I don't think that Jiffy Lube is the only one, Sears was also taken to court a number of years ago in California, there are still honest mechanics out there. Find them and cherish them.

My wife always says that the perfect family is one that contains a doctor, a lawyer, and an auto mechanic. I take our cars to a guy who's known my family for years, but I still don't trust him unconditionally. Whenever I've gone to those Express Oil Change-type places, they always seem to prey on immigrant-Asian customers and keep going back to them in the waiting room over and over trying to get them to add additional services.

We very rarely use Jiffy Lube, and only for oil changes, never anything else. I'll definitely reconsider using them in the future. Interesting video, thanks for sharing.

ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS ask them to keep the old parts so you can see them. Did I say always?

Of course this is a large part of the reason I do my own auto repairs.

I used to work at a fast-oil-change place. This video is a good example of a ripoff, but you've barely scratched the surface if that's all you've seen. Feel free to ask me questions about the business, but I will not post the company name publicly (PM me if you really must know, but they're all the same.) Franchise locations are the worst of the worst, but company-owned are not a whole lot better.

fun fact: the average employee turnover rate at Jiffy Lube is 1 week.

This does make me wonder if I was ever ripped off on my changes.... you know getting the ceapest shit possible when I always order Synthetic.

There's ripoffs everywhere, you just have to pay attention, ask questions and be firm..... it's YOUR money you are spending, they WORK for you the customer and you have every right to make sure the job is done to your liking.

I did that once and the place said "we threw ir away.... it was so bad." To which my reply was, "well, when I see the part I'll make sure you get paid."

They found the part..... it took them quite awhile and I do believe I saw my car up on lifters again..... but they truly found it......

My belief is if the mechanic allows you to go see the problem, shows it to you, and explains in detail what he needs to do.... you have a great mechanic.... it is that reason I love PEP BOYS never have a problem and they seem to always show me exactly what I need done and I can watch out the window and see them doing it.

The Cuban guy my mom used to take her car to always gave her the left-over parts in a box. I thought this was kind of silly, but now I realise he was just proving his honesty.

(Come to think of it, my dentist does the same thing except last time when the tooth was in too many pieces. But I got to look at it at least.)

i have always been fairly suspicious of auto mechanics (mostly when i'm new to an area). i remember another hidden camera investigation where the news team disconnected a plug to trigger the Check Engine light. they received diagnoses for huge problems when they took the car around.

i guess it's beneficial to learn as much as you can about your car.

MrSelfDestruct, i don't quite know what to ask, but i'm interested to hear about some of your experiences.

My last visit to Jiffy Lube was in a pinch. I was already behind schedule and had a 600 mile drive ahead so thought I'd save a few minutes. I recall the caring service writer recommending I change diff lube for a small fee. He gave some line about how few of us 4x4 owners remember to handle front and back, which explained the poor condition. What he didn't know was I'd just changed it myself the day before after checking wear patterns. Buffoons. When I mentioned this he stopped cold. Didn't even try to sell me one of their famous 3000mile air filters. :lol:

There was a set of these in California caught using old oil. They'd drain oil from customers and filter it into their fill tank each night.

Shady service centers thrive because somewhere over the last few decades it became unfashionable to know about cars. Ignorance makes one easy prey.

man lies lies eveywhere man

This is true of the service industry in general. Anywhere there's expertise contrasted with public ignorance, you'll probably find folks who want to make a quick buck by capitalizing on it. My two main fields (cars and computers) are rife with this sort of corruption. It really angers me that people would abuse their position like this just out of laziness and/or dishonesty.

This is why I am glad my brother is a mechanic.

Is there a way I can make sure my oil was really changed and my tranny and radiator were really flushed?

I don't have a specific question, but if you have some tips on what to look out for when going to get a car worked on, I'd be really grateful. I know next to nothing about cars, so I don't know the first place to look to see if I'm getting ripped off, etc.

sort of along the same lines, the last time my gf took her car to our local JL, she was told of a special deal that the "BEST" oil change was on sale for the price of the "CHEAP" package, so she went ahead and got it done. Well her next trip in she pulled in said change the oil told them no to all their extra services and when it was time to pay up she was quoted a price almost 3X what the oil change was listed, when she asked why they told her well we just do the last service you had done. She complained to the manager and was told that she was to inform them at the time of service what she wanted done and they were not willing to rectify their mistakes. She paid up and came home and promptly called the district manager and he was all too happy to fire the service manager as he had gotten many complaints for such similar snow jobs, and we just got 6 free oil change coupons and a hand written apology from the DM.

I do all the maintenance on my car myself because of stuff like that. For bigger jobs I take my chances and get recommendations. I wish I knew a mechanic who lived near me. :(

"I don't give a fuck, it's not my car." This is the motto of the fast auto service industry. If it's inconvenient for the tech and the manager isn't around, or for whatever reason something gets screwed up because of negligence, ignorance, or something else, these are the next words you hear.

Clip broke off the air filter box and now it's sucking air in past the filter? "I don't give a fuck, it's not my car."
Didn't look at the door sticker and put 45psi in tires with a maximum safe inflation of 44psi instead of the manufacturer's reccomendation of 32? "I don't give a fuck, it's not my car."
Put regular oil in instead of the synthetic oil the customer paid an extra $30 for? They'll never notice, and "I dont' give a fuck, ti's not my car."

Company policy is that you never put less than 30psi in tires, even if the manufacturer reccommends 26 or 28. Company policy can't be wrong, can it?

My manager was the cheapest, stingiest mofo you'll ever meet. In the winter, he'd yell at us for using too much hot water, and year round it was a holy war on paper towel usage. "Ian, why are you washing your hands so many times?" "Well, there's that warning on the back of the oil bottle that says prolonged contact with used oil can cause skin cancer, and you refuse to buy enough gloves to cover us until the next order, is that good enough for you?"
The T-Tech machine, featured in the Jiffy Lube video above, is a great thing. you don't have to drain anything, you just have to disconnect a cooling line and hook the machine up to the two ends. The T-Tech manual says to run it until the new and old fluid lines are the same color, indicating that all fluid has been replaced. The original policy was to run it up to halfway for a 4-cylinder car, 3/4 for a 6, and all the way for an 8. Don't pay attention to the fact that treansmision capacity and the number of cylinders have nothing to do with each other, that was company policy. Once we measured an marked off the fluid tank by quarts, the policy became running it to double the transmission pan capacity. In a lot of cars and trucks, that wasn't the total capacity of the system, so not all of the fluid was replaced. If we ran it to the number the policy specified and it wasn't completely clean, our manager had the nerve to ask the customer if he wanted us to run it longer for more money ($10-$30, depending on how dirty the fluid was and our ticket average was that day.) The customer was paying $100 for a service (125 for mercon V, which didn't matter since any friction modified fluid like Honda, Mopar, Mercon V, Toyota, etc. was replaced with Mercon/Dexron III and a botle of Shift Rite Platinum, which allegedly converted it to a friction-modified fluid,) and the manager had to save us $0.50 per quart on transmission fluid to wring the pennies out of everything we did.

They once ran a car for half an hour with no oil because we were running a T-Tech and everyone thought that someone else had put oil in and nobody had checked the dipstick or noticed that the oil cap was still off. I'm glad I didn't go anywhere near that car. Nobody ever told the customer.

I once ran a Jeep into an outside wall by stepping on the clutch from outside of the car and turning the key, then letting the clutch go and assuming that it was out of gear with the parking brake on. We wiped the paint scuff off the bumper and he never knew.
Watch them do it, ask to see a sample of the fluid both before and after the service, and make sure they're actually taking it from your car. If they have fluid samply cards, ask for a drop from your dipstick before and after (check to see that the fluid bleeds into the paper differently and that there's no ring of debris in the center afterward,) Ask them to explain how the service works (vacuum coolant flushes only replace 80% on a single-pass) and watch to see that the tech follows the procedure that was described to you by the service writer.
An honest service writer should show you a part or a fluid sample if they tell you to replace it. An air filter is still good if it's dry and you can see light through the ridges at the peak of each fold (ask to see a new filter and compare, if less than 50% of light is getting through, it should be replaced.) It's easy to sell air filters because of the misconception that dirty=needs repalcement. If the dust on it doesn't reach teh bottom of the folds and it's not oily or plugged up, it's still OK (if the dust is obviously clogging it, then replace it.) As for some other little-known facts that can lead to unnecessary fluid exchanges or feelings of false security, Ford power steering fluid will always look really dark, Toyota OEM transmission fluid has purple dye in it and will look dirty, and Honda fluids other than oil almost never look dirty.

If you want to know the service interval on a particular fluid, give me the year/make/model and the color of the fluid and I'll probably be able to tell you what you need done (this goes for anyone.)

I always stand next to my truck the entire time, and watch them like a hawk. Though whether they use old or new oil is hard to tell with the new pumping machines.

I do have a question for you MrSelfDestruct. I pretty regularly use fuel injector fluid into my gastank (about once every 3k miles). My truck is a '96 with 140k miles (so lots of deposits are to be expected). So when they tried to sell me on their own injector cleaner I figured what the hell. They used the IV-esq line that connects to the pcv valve.

After pumping it through the system my exhuast started belching white smoke. I noticed a definate increase in power, so I know it worked well. My question is this, is this injector cleaner IV easy to get ahold of? It seemed relatively easy watching them do it. And if so how often should it be done (I was told every 10k miles)?

You can check the oil if you know where the dipstick for it is on your engine. Pull it out, wipe it off, put it back in, and pull it out again. Look at the oil on the end of it. New oil will look yellow and translucent, kind of like honey. Old oil is brown and you can't see through it most of the time. Just to double-check, look at it before you take it in, and again when you get it back. There should be a noticable difference between the two. If there isn't, and especially if the after-oil looks dirty, I would question it.

grat info guys thanks

This is why I'm glad my family- 4 cars- has had the same guy as our mechanic for 12 years.

This is very unsettling considering how many times I've been to jiffy lube. :mad:

My favorite quick-service story: I'm in the waiting room, and I get the traditional "Mr. Redlemon? I need you to see this part", holding up my air filter. Great, I roll my eyes, here we go again. "Your air filter is full of sunflower seeds."

What?

"Sunflower seeds. Here, look." Yup, completely packed and it looks like it's blackened in all the rest of it, and there are several servings worth of seeds in the air filter tray.

OK, you got me this time, go ahead and replace it.

Once at Jiffy Lube they told my dad that a certain part (I don't remember which) needed to be flushed/changed/whatever. My dad looks at the kid and goes, "I don't know what kind of a fool you take me for, but my car doesn't even HAVE that. And even if I did, do you think I would trust you to do more than change my oil with MY Volvo? I don't think so."

I always double-check even their lowest level of service. My dad didn't raise a fool.

Do you think this is a problem at at certified dealers also? I take my car in for scheaduled maitence at a honda certified dealer.

Maybe I should be glad i'm in Utah and their would have to be a few Mormon empolyees at these dealers and they wouldn't let that happen (i hope).

It's definitely a problem at GM certified dealers. They got ahold of my wife's car when we were new to the area and a simple windshield wiper problem turned into a $400 electrical problem. And when we got it back, our coolant resevoir was minus a couple of screws and a plug. Ergo, we would develop a problem with losing coolant every month.

So we took it to a mechanic based on a reference. He pointed out what they had done and fixed it for $9.

BTW, the CIA considers Mormons to be great recruits. Just sayin'.

I used to work in a Chevy dealer, still keep my ASE certifications current and used to be GM certified. Working at an extended warranty company now I see a lot of really shady stuff. In the dealer I was always honest along with most of the others, but some of the other techs, not so much. Some techs had a favorite thing they liked to upsell on every car whether it needed or not. Periodically GM would release software updates to address specific issues that a small percentage of vehicles may actually benefit from under certain conditions. One of the techs would recommend updating the software on every car that came in, charging $110, even though virtually nobody would benefit from it.
While dealers aren't always honest, the absolute worst offenders are the national chain stores that specialize in oil changes or brake work. 999 times out of 1000 if your brakes are squeaking the calipers do not need to be replaced, it just needs pads and the rotors need to be either machined or replaced. Yet these brake chains always call in stating all the calipers and wheel cylinders are failed, and if they are extra greedy they will even call in a master cylinder. Now an average, non carguy consumer may not know any better but we certainly do, and every time we send an inspector out to verify the failure they find nothing wrong.

I'm sure its a problem everywhere, and my father was a mechanic for most of his life. Not always cars, but a good long time it was cars/trucks. I do my own work. Thanks Dad for teaching me all that stuff!

I would hope Honda doenst have as big a problem as the rest, they're generally known to be pretty reliable... But Hell, I would trust anyone.

I wonder how many people realize that little stip of metal that is on the pads IN ORDER TO SQEAK TO ALERT YOU THE PADS NEED TO BE CHANGED, is even there?

The expose on 60 minutes a few years ago on gas station scams was enough to scare the hell out of me. Guys were using razor blade rings to cut fan belts and puncturing tires on the sidewalls so they couldn't be fixed easily in order to sell new ones. Some places were selling hundeds of belts and tires a month.

The message I got from the scams was to almost never allow anyone you don't know to get close to your car, and even if you know them watch closely.:)

Our local Honda dealership is an absolute sleaze. I've yet to hear a good experience regarding new or used sales, service, whatever. I've fixed several of their misdiagnosed butcher jobs and I've seen how they break promises the moment something might cost them a dollar. Meanwhile the Honda dealer 13miles away (next town) is exceptional in every way but location.

Brand loyalty has become a red herring. Trustworthiness depends on the people.

I've taken my car to Jiffy Lube once, and they were way too expensive anyway. I'm happy that I have a friend that owns a shop. Even if I didn't completely trust him, I can always go and watch the repairs, oil changes, etc.. being done.

I really don't doubt it. I own and drive a honda, and my last car was a honda, and the places that ive been, ive been nothing but pleased... But you cant trust people now a days.

Is it just the quick service places, or do dealerships do this also? My old Mini, now Sissy's car, always gets taken to the BMW dealership for service, and my Acura will go to the dealership for all services also, at least during the warranty time. Is this actually safer, or do all the same precautions apply?

Gilda

you should always be careful, i would hope that these scams are the exception to the norm, but I don't think they are

there's a reason they're called stealerships ;) Even if they're honest - and many dealerships are, they're still usually a LOT more expensive than a good 3rd party mechanic. A timing belt/water pump on my old Integra was $250 at a regular mechanic, $485 at the dealership (and about $45 when I decided to stop being lazy and do the damn thing myself ;) )

And that's only the honest dealerships. There are plenty of dishonest and/or incompetent dealerships out there. Even if they're not outright lying to you, they might not know what they're doing. They might replace that part but if they overtighten the nuts, it'll break again in a few thousand miles.

Wouldn't you be taking the same risks of improperly done repairs with that 3rd party mechanic? How do you know that the mechanic is trained to do maintenance on your particular make and model of car. Doesn't going to a dealership offer at least some degree of assurance that they at least have the training for your specific vehicle?

I guess it's a good thing I have the others take care of stuff like this.

Gilda

I got ripped off by Midas-they pulled the Master Cylinder bit(it's nothing more than a resevoir, really), then had the nerve to leave the cap off and when I came back a week later because the air the MC was sucking in ruined the new brakes, they claimed it wasn't their fault. I'm not that easy to pacify-they fixed their 'mistake'.
My former Chrylser dealer tried to rip me off with doing an unauthorized tune-up, adding almost $150 to the bill. I fought that(had a nice audience of salespeople as I yelled at the service manager) and when the cashier asked if I'd be back when the tune-up was really due, I replied, 'Honey, the way y'all do business, you won't BE here by then". They weren't.
Aamco transmissions tried to rip off the spouse by putting in a cut gear. They went out of business within the year and when his reverse failed(13 months after the work ws done), we went back to that building, now with a new transmission company. The manager said a LOT of people were coming back-best he could do was give us a 'fleet price'.
Goodyear has tried twice to rip us off. First time, for a tie rod end and upper ball joint on our old Cordoba. Didn't fall for it and demanded we get the car back. Their $400 estimated job cost us under $100-spouse did the repairs himself. Second time, different Goodyear, all I wanted was to have the spouse's original wheels switched to new chrome ones. They didn't give us back the originals and had to go back and demand them-they were packed as if ready to be shipped and that was within an hour of picking up the car.
Gilda, best thing you can do is ask questions. Know exactly what's on your car, what it does and the service requirements and intervals. The Chrysler dealer did a tune-up at 36k miles when the intervals were to be 100k. I knew this, they assumed I didn't and went ahead even though I told them specifically what I wanted done.
When you are having work done, ask them what they are going to do and why. Demand to be shown the damaged parts BEFORE they are out of the car. A good mechanic will not have to be asked, he will take you in and show you. Or have a friend look at the car for signs of trouble; excessive rust, oil where oil shouldn't be, belts that looked grazed or chipped. Mechanics aren't needed for that, these are obvious enough to anyone.
Be wary of any mechanic that tells you that something needs to be worked on that has NOTHING to do with why you brought it in. If you're getting an oil change and he tells you your transmission is 'slipping', say thanks and leave. You know your car, it's noises and performance; if something's 'slipping', you'd know.
When taking it in anywhere for an advertised special, be assertive. If they're running a $49.95 'brake special', ask what exactly it includes and don't fall for that 'while we were replacing the pads, we noticed the rotors needed turning'. If it's not included, again, say thanks and leave and don't pay more than what was agreed upon. Make a scene if you have to. Bait and switch is illegal, but it's a part of business because they 'know' most women don't know their cars.
Which brings me to the last part-learn about your car. How many belts (timing, alternator, etc), what kind of brakes (all-disc, front disc, rear rotor), maintenance intervals(listed in the car's manual). So-called 'spongy' brakes feel like they won't grab when they're supposed to; 'pinging' when you step on the gas sounds like a faint knock and the car will hesitate-that could be either dirt in the carburetor or it's time for a tune-up. There shouldn't be fluids under your car when it's parked. Green is a radiator leak, oil is an oil leak. Transmission fluid is pinkish but if you look under the car and see brown wet, you have a transmission problem.
Hope this helps!

Of course. That's why if you want to protect yourself you need at least a basic understanding of how a car works and you need to see the old parts when the mechanic's done.


They rarely are. They might be "certified" in your make of car (honda, etc) (certification isn't that hard to get btw) (and how do you know they're not faking the certification - Honda doesn't certify any but its own mechanics for example).

That said, you don't really need to be trained for each specific car. The disc brakes on your car function very much like the disc brakes on my car. I don't know what you drive, beyond it being an Acura, but I can tell you right now that, since I can work on the brakes on my car, I can work on them on your car. Anything that's unique to your specific car can be investigated with a shop manual.


They'd just love for you to think that, but no. Dealerships love to tout their certification programs but they never tell you exactly what those programs do. For example, does anyone really believe Dodge fully trains all its mechanics on every car Dodge ever built? The enormity of that task makes it nearly impossible.

In fact, having known a few dealership mechanics who were about 3 IQ points above oatmeal, I can tell you first hand that you don't necessarilly have to be any more competent or knowledgeable to work at a dealership than you do at a 3rd party.

And in fact, 3rd party mechanics have MORE of an incentive to be good at their job than dealerships do. Lots of people take their cars to the dealership because that's what they think they have to do. And if they're in that mentality, it's not like you're going to take your Acura to the Ford dealership if you decide you don't like the service. But for a 3rd party guy - - if you don't like his work, you're outa there, finding a new 3rd party guy.

That, added to the fact that the 3rd party guy owns his business, and that's it, whereas the dealership/Jiffy Lube has the full support of its backing company. .. the economics aren't hard to work out.

A couple of years ago, Grancey and I were in Nashville for New Year's Eve and a bowl game. Once we got to the hotel, we climbed back into the car with some other family members who were there and the car (Olds Regency 98) suddenly sounded like a jet engine. We got out, popped the hood (none of us knew what the hell we were doing) and someone declared it might be the water pump.

The next morning (Dec. 31) I took the car to a dealership right across the street and was told that I had to have an APPOINTMENT!?! Sheesh. So, I took the car down the highway to another dealer and they agreed to look at it (it was still making the same noise). An hour later, that dealer called back and told me that the noise was a bad compressor, and it wouldn't give me any real trouble until the weather got hot and the A/C wouldn't work. HOWEVER, they DID discover that some valve or some thingy was causing coolant to leak into the oil and it would have to be repaired. $1,000, of course, or else I wouldn't make it back home.

I called a mechanic back home and told him what the guy had told me (with the guy standing right there) and my home mechanic told me it sounded plausible and that I'd better let him do the work.

So we went to Nashville for a good time and dropped $1000 before we ever got to New Year's. I've always been suspicious of that repair and this thread has dragged up some bad memories between Grancey and I. As we were driving that very same car to the grocery store yesterday, Grancey said that she plans to win the lottery and return to that dealership in Nashville. She will announce to them that she plans to buy an entire fleet of cars (with cash) and needs their help picking them all out. However, right at the point of signing the final documents, she will suddenly announce that she remembers this dealership as the one who ruined her New Year's Eve a few years ago, and she's changed her mind about all the cars.

It's amazing how many of our revenge fantasies begin with, "When we win the lottery...."

We've always taken our Volvos to 3rd-party mechanics once their warranty ran out. We go to a great guy right now named "Helmut"--nevermind that Helmut is actually a little old Vietnamese guy. It's a family-run operation--his two college-educated sons do the work and Helmut oversees the shop. There is not a day you go in there where the shop isn't full of other European imports--Mercedes, Porsches, BMWs and the like. Our former mechanic (we moved, and so had to leave him behind) was much the same--family-owned business, very busy.

The key in finding a good mechanic to try is to be observant--do they have a lot of repeat business? Are they busy? Are they recommended by a colleague or friend with a similar car to yours? Ours came recommended by a colleague of my father's, and now we wouldn't think of taking our cars anywhere else--Helmut saves us a LOT of money.

Both of the 3rd-party mechanics we've had have ALWAYS taken the time out to explain what was wrong with the car, show us what they were going to do/what was done, etc--without having to be asked. A good mechanic is proud of his work and won't rush you out of his shop--and a good 3rd-party mechanic is looking to build a relationship with you where he can earn your repeat business.

Seafoam is your friend. There are a few threads in Motors about it. Just otu of curiosity, what chain did the service? Most will run it so that no smoke appears that could scare the customer (there's absolutely no way to convince someone who knows nothign about cars that the cloud of white smoke is a good thing, and actually better than no smoke at all.)
If your transmission is slipping, you're fucked, anyway. You should have had the preventative maintenence done so it didn't get that way. You also have waaaaay too much faith in people if you think that the average driver will notice a gradually appearing mechanical problem.

Unfortunatly, isnt that the truth...

I know my car pretty well, and I'm anal about any noise, vibration, shudder, and odd feel I get. Luckily, I'm educated enough, and smart enough to usually deduce where it might be comming from, and take a look at it myself. If I notice anything fishy, I get a second opinion by my favorite mechanic... My father. And then him and I do the work.

To all... If you have the opportunity, next time something needs work on your car (even if its just brakes and an oil change), and you have a family member, or friend who can do the work for you... Tag along, learn how to do it. In the process, you will learn enough to recognize a lot more problems than you think. Ask questions, hell, even do the work, just have him/her show you what to do.

That's part of the thing with my car. It's a 2006 RL, so it's under warranty for the next four and a half years, with the powertrain for two more after that. With everything but basic maintenance taken care of, I can't see a good reason to not take it in for all scheduled maintenance. I don't know enough about cars to really tell if I'm getting scammed, though, so either Grace or Sissy takes care of that part.

Gilda

As long as you've got someone to double-check the work (Grace or Sissy) and you're still under warranty, keep going to the dealership, but keep your eyes and ears open for a good 3rd party mecahnic once your warranty runs out. :)

Want a way for non-car-geeks to make sure this doesn't happen to you ?

Watch them as they perform the service, and ask questions. Keep it friendly while you are talking to them so they don't see you as a nag (talk to them more like a friend than an employee). If you are hanging around every step of the way, they will be a lot less likely to skip something since there is an eye-witness. If they do not allow you in the garage to watch, be VERY suspect of the work they are doing. There is no OSHA standard that says you cannot be in there with them. The only restriction is that you cannot be under the car (in the pit or beneath a lifted car).

If you are worried about them putting used oil in your car, there is a simple way to avoid it. Request a non-standard oil type. If you ask for a Synthetic Blend, or Synthetic oil, I can almost guarantee you will see them reach for a brand new bottle and break the seal on it as you stand there. If you don't want to change your car to expensive synthetics, you can simply request a different 'weight' of oil than what they have in the machine. Most oil change places will only have your standard 10w30 or 10w40 on-tap. Any different weights will need to come from a bottle, and will generally not cost extra. If you do request a different weight oil, keep in mind, the lower numbered weights (5w30, and 5w20) are for newer cars or for cold weather, while higher weights (15w40 and 20w50) are for older cars and warmer weather. Either that, or you can just bring your own oil and have them use it. Typically cars will need 3.5 to 4 litres, while trucks, or larger V-8 cars will use 4.5-6 litres. You can check the car's manual to see how much it takes. The only downside of bringing your own is that some shops will not warranty their work if you do not use their oil.

That video is pretty messed up but the fact that Jiffy Lube's oil changes are $38 is the biggest ripoff in my opinion. :thumbsup:

MrSelfDestruct,

That's a great post there.

I do my own work, and I think you just saved me a lot of typing; there's nothing you typed I don't agree with.

Just wanted to give you a :) for putting your effort into the thread and getting accurate info out there.

One reason we bought a Saturn was that there is less history of thousands of makes and models to know. So it seems to me that most Saturn dealership people are well trained since they don't have to know that many models. But still I ask for all used parts in a paper bag. One guy tried to hand me some leaky busted part by hand, and I said, "I need a paper bag", so he went and got one.

I went to Firestone once for a oil change and they left the oil cap off and I drove off. So now I always check for the oil cap before driving away. The smart oil change techs will put the oil cap in such a place so that the hood cannot close. That way it will always be put back on.

I went to a Jiffy Lube clone place in Seattle as that was the closest place that AAA would tow my car. The clutch needed to be done and so I let them do it. The car broke down on the highway after 5 miles from the repair place. Needless to say I had to almost force the manager to test drive the vehicle until they fixed the grinding noises at high speeds. Thank goodness for AAA. Jiffy Lube and their clones are for oil changes only and only if I have a coupon.

We also have a geo metro and we have anti-war stickers on it. Sometimes I have gotten shitty service and I often wonder if some uber patriotic repair person doesn't like me. I guess I now understand why some people never put stickers on their car.

Another thing about cars I learned from my gpa, was that batteries can last longer if you trim the terminals every so often if they get corroded. He had a little tool with metal brushes and a blade to trim the metal. Worked like a charm and I would assume that it might prevent some electrical problems.

The geo metro recently got a new water filter, and I got fcked with a 400 dollar bill. I wish I had read this thread earlier so I could have taken it to some other place for $250. But the geo metro water filter lasted 16 years so that is good right ?

Jonathan

One last thing about dealerships. Try all the dealerships in your area and then you will get in on all their coupon mailings. Most of the dealerships take competetor coupons.

Also some Saturn dealerships wash my windows, or vaccuum out the driver side foot well, or sometimes have even washed our Saturn for no apparent reason. Some even have free popcorn, which is awesome since I hate coffee. Keeping the customer happy I guess. (^:

Jonathan

While this is techincally correct, it's not the entire story. OSHA only covers guidelines for workers, not the general public. Insurance companies, particularly liability companies, do have much different guidelines. My first job in insurance was for a used auto dealers program for Chicago dealers. Lots of them had garages as well as car lots, and we covered those as well. Anyone that let the general public onto a shop floor was automatically declined. If we found out that you answered the question incorrectly, that was grounds for immediate cancellation. Speaking as the resident self-proclaimed insurance expert, allowing the general public into an area as busy and potentially dangerous as a typical garage is a very bad idea. All it takes is one person tripping over a misplaced wrench and tumbling into a pit to make you realize that $1,000,000 isn't that much money after all.

I grew up in a very small town in Texas. About a year ago I was down there so I had my oil changed (I knew the family who owned it), and next to me was an import car with Anti-War stickers all over the back (clearly from out of town).

Needless to say the son of the owner was fighting in Iraq, and the father was a two-tour Vet of Vietnam. He did not mess with the car in any way, he just simply stated he was not going to service the car. I heard through the grapevine he went to 2-3 other towns and everyone refused to service the car.

That's why I dont have any bumper stickers on my truck (save for one UT).

Tssssssss... Wouldn't get service from me... :p

Edit: To make it more clear.

Except that if they close the hood hard enough they'll bend it. That can be an expensive repair. Better to just remember to put the damn thing back on ;)

Sorry, but that's idiotic. It's car repair, not the million man march. If you want to be in business, you serve your customers. If you want to make political statements, get your own bumper sticker.

That's kind of my point, that people SHOULD notice gradual changes in their cars.
Example: My car was making a HORRID noise over a year ago. (Horrid to me at least) I knew where it was coming from(right front and a second noise in the rear) and could describe it to a tee. At first, spouse would roll his eyes. The noise continued to get worse, I complained, he put me off. Finally, he 'looked' under the car, announced I needed new struts and center control arm bushings. He was wrong. Struts were fine. What wasn't fine, that he thought I was crazy about, was the passenger side control arm, front stabilizers, center control arm bushings, rear linkage, total cost $1200.
We become complacent and think cars are indestructible and that mechanics 'know' everything. That's how these rip-off artists manage to stay in business-they're banking on the ignorance of so many.
The fact is, I DON'T have much faith in anyone but myself about my car and everyone should think the same way to prevent the very ripoffs this thread is highlighting.

When I had a big lumbering Jeep, I kept a large glass jar for such things. Difficult to explain to the girl I was dating at the time. I guess I should have kept it in the back seat.

Most Saturn service depts. will wash your car. They will also toe the line on honesty, but their charges may be much more, especially if you bring in a non-Saturn vehicle.

The coffee and the popcorn is nice. Once they let me watch a DVD in the back seat of an L300.

I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, at any time, for any reason. If I cannot respect a person because of their views, how can I expect to enter a business agreement that will be fruitful for both parties? Pass on the repair, let another shop deal with a person that has differing ideals. Maybe they can take better care of them.

The first two sentences are very true. The third, as far as I know from my time in an oil change shop, is not.
Unless your car is leaking (in which case you should have the seals replaced) you should be getting synthetic oil anyway.
Canned oil cost an extra $1/quart from us.
Generally, you should just use what your manufacturer recommends. Unless your'e racing, you don't need 20 weight oil, it's only reccommended because the manufactrer wants that extra 1% increase in fuel economy toward CAFE. If you want a perfect example, look at the shared engines (yeah, I know they use different heads, but the rest is pretty much the same,) between Jaguar and Ford/Lincoln. Why is it that an XJ8 will use 15w40 and and an LS or Town Car will use 5w20? Ford is willing to sacrifice engine lifespan for a .3mpg increase.
Thanks
Saturns are unusually easy to work on, surprisingly reliable, and their dealers have a good amount of expertise since everything is built on the same platform (two different engines until the Ecotec and Honda V6 were added, now it's 4 plus one of those with forced induction.
We always did this, because although my manager would compromise stuff like the T-Tech to cut costs, he would not tolerate screwups on the basic oil change. Other locations, however, weren't so good about it.

Entirely unsurprising.
Hmm, all we did ("we" being some of the more intellectual guys there) was laugh at stupid things, contradictory combinations of stickers, and poor grammar on stickers.
Not only should you clean the terminals (pour half a can of coke over the terminals then use that tool, then spray with a can of battery terminal corrosion inhibitor before and after connecting the leads,) Putting an insulating blanket arond the batttery can double or triple the life by preventing engine heat from evaporating your fluid. Keeping the fluid topped off (there are special bottles for this) will also help to maximize life.
I think you mean the water pump, which is a $50 part that is easy to install.

Way beyond that.

My best friend was a mechanic at a couple of GM dealerships. What they would do is when you bring your car in for service, say the wipers aren't working, they will tell you that you need a new module.

The reality was that the fuse was blown (say).

You pay 500 for the new module, but it never goes in your car.

The mechanic keeps the 500 part.

Now, you are thinking, well, what's he going to do with that part?

Answer, the parts department buys it back from him for 15 or 20 cents on the dollar.

Seriously.

How do you like those apples?

I bought a new car from the dealer in April 2005.

The scam they ALWAYS try to pull is to get you to buy into their scheduled maintenance program.

They have:

Shedule A

Schdule B

Schedule C

They all feature oil changes. I believe in oil changes.

After that, they get pretty iffy.

Schedule C features a lot of "Inspection Work", and cleaning, adjusting and lubricating the brake caliper pins. Cost of Schedule C = $399.00.

One of the funny ones was that they would inspect the Air Conditioning. I said to the guy, "well, if the AC doesn't work, I'll know and I'll bring it back to you and you will fix it for free cause the car is still under warrantee.

Why the hell would I possibly pay you to inspect the AC???

Seriously.

Everytime you call, they tell you, "Oh, you are due for Schedule Whatever" and I tell them, no, I just want an oil change. They get all pissy, but I don't give a fuck. When I decline the BS service, they even wrote it on the invoice that I declined Schedule C. I look at the maintenance manual from the manufacturer and none of what the dealership is trying to sell me is on the list.

I believe in changing the oil without fail, change the transmission oil at 50,000 km, and the coolant as well. Change the Air filter when it gets dirty, and the PCV valve and fuel filter every 100,000 km.

Other than that, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Don't most warrenties require you to do scheaduled maintence? I'm pretty sure mine does.

Warranties do require scheduled maintenance. However they just require the maintenance listed in the owners manual, which can be quite a different story from the maintenance sold by the repair shops.

I used to work in a GM dealer and we never did anything that bad:eek: A couple of guys did get fired for claiming to do repairs under warranty that they did not do. For example a customer would bring in a car with an oil leak, and it was the oil pan gasket. The tech would clean the engine off, maybe smear a little silicone around the oil pan in a halfhearted effort to slow the leak and send it on its way. When it came back still leaking the tech would claim that the cast aluminum pan was porous and would actually replace the pan, so he would get paid twice to do the job once. Supposedly they turned in the guys name and SS# to GM as a warranty thief when they fired him so he cannot do warranty work at any other GM dealer, but I don't know how true that is.

One thing we were always required to do though was bill out fluids on every repair, whether we needed them or not. For example if I replaced a water pump under warranty I didn't get paid to flush the entire cooling system so I just topped it off. I still had to bill out the full amount of antifreeze for the entire system though, or I got in trouble. Before you know it, I had 10 gallons of unopened antifreeze sitting on my workbench and I got yelled at for having too much laying around. I couldn't win

FIrst off, a quick question to anyone that is more knowledgeable than I about cars....

In 2003, I bought a brand new Ford Mustang. I have heard conflicting information about how often I should change the oil - some people have told me every 2000 miles, others have told me that with a newer vehicle you can go up to 5000 miles. Can anyone clarify?

As far as shady business practices go, about a year and a half after I had purchased my car, my check engine light came on. I brought it to the dealership and asked them to tell me why it was on. They said that they were busy, so they'd inspect the vehicle and I could pick it up at the end of the day.

Later that day I got a call from them and they told me that they hadn't had a chance to inspect it, but would do so first thing in the morning.

To make a long story short, after several calls the next day, I was told that I could pick it up at 4:30 pm.

Originally, I had an estimate of $29.00 or whatever for the inspection. Imagine my surprise when I went there and got slapped with a nearly $900.00 bill. I asked them how in the world I had a bill that high, as I had only wanted an inspection done and it was still under warrently.

Basically, they told me how I had apparently run over a rock or something and it had bounced around under my car and caused a ton of damage, including severing a brake line and partially perforating my fuel lines. I was told they had to replace a fairly large portion of both lines.

Of course, it wasn't covered under warrently, as I had caused the damage.

Although I don't have a ton of experience with cars, it sounded... possible, though not likely. I thought perhaps they were exaggerating a bit, as had my brake line actually been severed, I wouldn't be able to stop. I told them that at the very least they should have called me and gotten permission. I asked to see the old parts, and they had convieniently thrown them away. I then asked to have my car lifted up so I could take a look at the work.

After a bit of bickering - they didn't want to let me under the car for liability reasons - they lifted the car. I could see that there was absolutely no difference anywhere that I could see in the fuel and/or brake lines. I asked the mechanic which area had been replaced, and he pointed to a particular line that ran nearly the length of the vehicle. I asked him why it was so dirty and looked just like the rest of the vehicle's lines - his excuse? The mechanics who worked on my car probably had oil all over their hands from working on cars all day.

Unfortunately for the morons that were trying to rip me off, I had helped the owner's son finance the purchase of a vacation property about a month prior to that. I made a quick call to him standing in the shop, and needless to say, I didn't pay the bill, nor ever take my vehicle back there again...

No word of a lie.

My friend had his own shop at one time and I was there once and there was a huge box of parts and I asked him what was up with that.

Apparently he had offered a better price for all the "extra" parts than the parts department at the dealership was paying, so he had a pile of brand new GM parts at a fraction of the price.

Buyer beware I guess.

Every 6,000 km, which is about every 3,000 miles I would guess.

Interesting story by the way.

As an aside, I just purchased a shop manual for my car. I find them invaluable if you want to fix your own car and money well spent.

It amazes me the level of detail in this manual (4 volumes) as opposed to my old GM manual for my 97 buick (2 volumes) All in all, the manuals weighed 18 pounds (shipping tag)

Wow. Ok, now I'm scared to take my car anywhere for maintenance.

Gilda

Gilda, you should be. Horror stories are endless. At least expect a high vulture:goodguy ratio. Good wrenches know they're diamonds in the rough. Find them by whatever means and treat them like gold.

If you use synthetic, you can go 5000 as long as you use a good filter. Also, don't use the 5w20 crap they tell you to, 10w40 or 15w40 will double your engine life at the cost of ~1mpg and 2 or 3 HP at most

Ok, here's one I've always wondered, since we're talking about it. It doesn't apply to my car, which has a display that says when to change the oil, but why the x months or x miles requirements? I understand the miles, and I understand the different schedules for different driving conditions, but if I'm only driving my car say 300 miles every month, do I really need to still change the oil every six months?

Gilda

Kinda depends Gilda. If those 300 miles involve starting it, driving 3 blocks, then shutting it off, then yeah, you probably need to change it that often. If it's mostly highway miles (not excessive stops/starts, and the car gets fully warmed up before you shut it off) then you're probably good waiting a bit longer.

You change the oil for two reasons: tiny little metal particles from engine wear get into the oil and cause faster engine wear. Changing the oil gets rid of them.

The other big reason is that over time the oil breaks down, you get water in it, etc. In short, your oil is no longer as oily as it was, so it doesn't lubricate as well.

While you won't get as many metal particles in the engine only driving 1800 miles as you would driving 3000 miles (assuming you're not starting it and switching it off excessively), your oil could still absorb water, especially if its humid where you live.


Here's how I look at it. I have a Honda with 300,000 miles on it, and the damn thing still starts every morning and still runs like a champ. I change the oil every 3000 miles/6 months religiously. It's 20 bucks that helps ensure I won't end up paying 1,500 bucks to replace the engine ;)

Thanks. It isn't an issue with my car, because the car's computer says when it needs an oil change, but I did wonder about why the time would matter. Thank you for explaining.

I hope this isn't hijacking things too much, but what is the advantage of Synthetic oil? Grace told me to make sure that they used that when I took it in for its first oil change a couple of months back.

Gilda

Hey, it's a car maintainence thread. The more questions are asked, the more people will know when some jerk tries to rip them off ;)

Synthetic is a lot more expensive, but it's also a lot better at being oil. Regular oil has natural variances in purity, size of molecules, etc. You wouldn't think that'd be a big deal but when you're talking about chunks of metal less than a few thousanths of a milimeter apart, flying past each other six thousand or more times per minute, lubrication qualities become a pretty big deal.

So yes, synthetic is much better than conventional oil. BUT:

Do we really need it in daily driving cars. I think this is the point where Mr. SD and I will diverge in opinion, but I don't think so.

Sure synthetic is a lot better at lubricating, but regular oil lubricates just fine. I'd compare it to replacing your lawn mower with a 5 foot wide professional ride-on mower. Sure the pro mower will bring more to the job, but it's not necessary.

On a pure cost-benefit analysis, regular oil wins hands down. And, again using my honda as an example, I've got over a quarter million miles on the thing, and it's never seen a drop of synthetic in its life.


All that said, and I know this doesn't apply to you Gilda, but it might for others - if you've been running your car on regular oil for a long time and then you switch to synthetic, you might discover that you have oil leaks. Buyer beware ;)

I took my brand new truck to a quick lube place and watched (quite unsurprised) as the tech came into the waiting room to show me the "clogged up" air filter. I asked him if it was typical for an air filter to go bad in 6000 miles and he just shrugged. I then showed him the air flow indicator in the engine, had him put back the "clogged" filter and showed him that it was flowing with no resistance.

His comment after I totally destroyed him? "Well, it LOOKS dirty."

I've been doing oil change, coolant flush since my dad taught me at age 15. Unless you can't tell a screwdriver from a wrench, you can do it yourself. It's good to know these things to avoid scams.

The computer gives you a reasonable estimate of when your car is likely to need an oil change. It's not even close to an exact science.
For a presentation on the difference between regular and synthetic oils, go to www.pennzoilplatinum.com
Yep, we're goin gto disagree. Synthetic oils use superior additive packages that will keep the engine cleaner and prevent sludging much more reliably than conventional oils. The part about leaks is definitely true, since even 20w50 synthetic oil will flow as freely as 5w20 conventional.
If that's a Vortech under your hood, the airflow meter is completely worthless. On a similar note, something like a K&N is entirely unneccesary since only very high displacement or heavily boosted engines are going to come anywhere near the flow capacity of the air filter.

Ok. According to the owner's manual the computer monitors mileage and engine speed to monitor oil life. Isn't this at least an improvement over just picking a number of miles and applying that?

Part of the reason we chose the car we did is the low mainenance--the car's computer says when to take it in for service, and the services are all included for the first three years, and it's not supposed to need anything but fluids, filters and tire rotations until 100,000 miles.

By the way, why the higher numbers on the oil? I was told by the more mechanically inclined in my family to tell them when I took it in for the oil change to substitute 10w-30 for the recommended 5w-20 in the manual. The higher numbers are acceptable, so I did that, but I'm curious as to why?

I could ask Sissy--dad taught her all this stuff when she was like 12, but why rely on family when you can ask some stranger on the internet?

I know the difference between those! Woo hoo!

Gilda

The screwdriver is the one that looks like an ice-pick with an x on the end, right? I can hear it now. Gilda the mechanic they'll call me. Yeah, they'll say, Gilda's cool, she can explain the functional subtext of Dr. Seuss's The Sneeches and she knows which end of the spark plug to hit with the hammer. Ahhh, the wonders of being multi-talented. I'll be a guy magnet . . . oh, wait a minute.

I'm always glad that my mechanic is a good buddy of my dads.

The numbers are the thickness of the oil. In the oil commercials you hear about "viscosity breakdown", basically the oil looks it's stickyness factor. Thinner oils work better in cold environments, as it quickly circulates through the engine at startup to protect the metal-on-metal contacts. Thicker oils tend to take a bit longer (a minute or so) in very cold weather to warm up and go to the engine. That means, however, you're left momentarily with little oil in your engine. Once it's up and running, however, you'll be fine.

Thicker oils (10w40, 20w40) are much better at protecting engines over the long term and in hotter environments. The thicker oil means its viscosity will adhear better to the metal parts and stick more in the minute defection in the metals which provides more lubrication.

Personally I stick to the heavier stuff. Then again I live in the Texas heat, with a truck with a large V8, and have over 140k miles. So the lighter oils simply wouldn't hold up.

5w20 for you sounds extremely lightweight. While it may be in your owners manual, it just seems to me unless your engine is powered by a lawnmower engine you'll want something thicker. At next oil change I'd go with the 10w30 or 40. 10 weight is good for cars and works well in cold weather.

Thanks. I did have them put in the 10w30 synthetic, as per my sister or wife's instructions (I forget which).

Gilda

It's an improvement, but the trend of long service intervals is a worrying indication that manufacturers are willing to trade durability for convenience. The average buyer does not keep a car until it dies, and someone who is going to trade in a car or switch cars when the lease expires won't notice that they get 100,000 miles less on the engine because of increased service intervals.

The other factor is that consumers are simultaneously extraordinarily gullible and extraordinarily cynical. If they go to a dealer that tells them a car can go 10,000 miles between oil changes because it's engineered better than the one sold down the street, they're not going to believe the guy down the street when he tells them that the guy with the 10k interval is lying, because not only is he asking the customer to believe ( the counterintuitive idea) that a company is willingly selling an inferior product and claiming it to be superior because of the inferior trait, but it appears the salesman is also admitting that his product needs more upkeep to work as well as the competition. Toyota had a werious sludge problem with their 3.0L engines because they gave in to pressure from competition to increase service intervals above what was safe.

Another worrying trend; Manufacturers are so desparate to squeeze an extra half a mile per gallon out of their cars that they once again sacrifice engine longevity to appear better to customers. Honda does it for the efficeincy reputation, most do it out of desparation to meet CAFE regulations.

Because I have nothing better to do.
As it should be. I use 10w40 in the summer (car is 15 years old and still going strong, but I kicked it up from the reccommended 10w30 because I drive it hard) and when the temperature is going to be below freezing most of the time, I switch to 0w40, and top it off with progressivley heavier oil as it gets warmer (I burn about a quart every 1000 miles and start to top off with 15w40 then 20w50 before the spring change.)

Another benefit: heavier oils designed for diesel engines (it'll say so on the bottle) have more durable additive packages that will scrub the engine more thoroughly and protect better.

I'm of the opinion now that synthetic oil is a marketing ploy. It fills the motor oil niche for people seeking the upscale purchase option. I don't see a practical justification for paying 5x the cost of regular oil for neglible (non-existent?) results. Your car is going to run fine using 10w40 for the life of the car.

When I was younger, I used synthetic oil and premium gas. I worked on my cars, washed and detailed them every few days, and used to argue to the death with my cynical dad ("oil is oil") over the necessity and superiority of synthetic oil. After I went through a few cars and found out they still run and stay reliable on ordinary 10w-40 and regular gas, I stopped spending more.

On second thought--scratch all that. When I get my Porsche, the gas tank will be filled with premium gas, it will be waxed with the most expensive polymer sealants and carnuba waxes, and the crankcase will be filled to the brim with the most expensive synthetic blend on the market. ;)

It is very different stuff. I think synthetic has been covered well here before, but the oil is much more durable. The additive package tends to be premium to last as long, and it's different because of the inherent characteristics of synth oil. The base oils don't need as many modifiers to maintain viscosity or assist in cleaning since the unmodified oil is superior in these regards. That means much less risk of sludging or reduced lubrication should you go too long or have a "temperature event."

If you run in weird climates - really hot, really cold, or back & forth, or need extended intervals, synth is generally better than the dino equivalents. (not to say there aren't excellent dinos and blends, it's just that they'll tend to fail first in the worst situations) If you're in severe circumstances and you don't or can't stop, synthetic will be your best bet. Each car and driver is different though, so it's still flying blind without at least initial analyses. That means for most people you're right. At 3-5000 mile blind changes, synthetic is mostly Alpo for the car.

That's true but IMO it's not necessary because the extra durability doesn't do you any good. You're still going to get metal particles suspended in the oil, and you're still going to need to get them out of there. So you're still changing the oil every 3-5k. Regular oil still lubricates at that service interval, so what's really the point of switching to synthetic? Even assuming your engine won't last quite as long, you can take the money you saved not using synthetic, and swap in a bigger engine when yours dies ;) But again, I don't think that's going to be an issue anyway because of the many cars with over 250k out there that've been running on dinojuice all their lives.

It's a rare car in good mechanical shape that limits change intervals due to metal particles. If the chunks are big enough to cause damage yet not be picked up by the filter then wrong filter. If there are so many that they're a problem on the first pass then goodbye engine. Metal points to other problems which destroy the oil. Iron or aluminum, or even bearing material are all normal to some degree and point to their own problems of contamination or breakin/abnormal wear. More of a warning sign than a problem in itself.

What generally happens at oil end-of-life is the oil goes out of grade, either thinning or thickening, it becomes unable to deal with the chemistry influences of fuel and water or other contaminants, and it stops protecting your engine. Somwhere along the line it fails and becomes part of the problem. How quickly this happens depends on the specific engine and condition combined with your driving patterns and habits. Some cars are unique and need an exceptional oil to even hit 3K safely.

I agree that there's no guarantee besides fresh oil. Pushing changes out is either a risk done blind, or an extra cost to pay for analysis. I've seen dino's & blends go past 7K, and synth beyond 12K all backed by oil analyses. (my own results and far from extraordinary) So in some sense I think we agree. If your warranty doesn't require it, you aren't running harsh conditions where the improved cold cranking and flash points help, or extending the interval isn't useful, and you don't need a new hobby, dino at 3K is simplicity. I stick to it myself unless I know the engine can go longer.

Hey, isn't there an oil thread around here so we can leave Gilda alone? :)

Another thing about the weight that was not mentioned, is that in a multi-weight oil (one with 2 numbers like 10w30 or 5w20 etc.) the lower number is it's viscosity at low temperatures, such as the temperature when the car has cooled off and is not running, while the higher number is the weight of the oil when it is hot, during engine operation. You can find oils that have a very low cold weight, and very high hot weight (such as a 5w35 or 10w50), but they are touhger to find and much more expensive, and they don't work all that well in many passenger car engines due to the elastomer chains in the oil breaking down much easier, meaning more oil changes.

It isn't all too realavent, but just wanted to toss a bit of education in :D

The video has been removed because it was "used without NBC's permission."

Not sure if I saw the same video tonight, but they said 5 of the 9 Jiffy Lubes they went to in the LA area ripped them off in regard to the T-Tube.

Well, that was a bit more respectful by telling the person up front. But I suspect that they don't know there are more ways than one to serve their country.

Jonathan