BentNotTwisted

I was at a Sam's Club last weekend and realize how seldom I look up at the sky. As I was walking through the parking lot to leave I thought of the woman who, a couple of months ago, was caught on a video camera in a Kohls parking lot punching her child. I decided to look up. Yup, there it was. A nice video camera pointed at the parking lot.

Did it give me a warm feeling to know someone in the store was watching my car to make sure no one broke into it while I was shopping? Not really. I have since started looking up a lot more often and have seen lots of those cameras around. It is chilling to see how many there are and to think about how many there will be soon. As the price of electronics drops, soon it won't just be large retail chains that can afford these systems. Imagine your neighborhood homeowners association wants to put in video cameras to help reduce crime. Imagine video cameras being reduced to the size of a dime or smaller. There will soon be a day when you can't go anywhere outside your home without being watched. When that day comes will we just accept that we have no privacy outside our homes?

__________________
IS THAT IT ???!!!
Do you even know what 'it' is?

When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

gov135

Gives me a warm feeling. Those cameras are used to catch shoplifters - who raise the price of products for the 99.9% of us who don't.

Long as I don't have to pay for it.

This is what seems to get most people going. I figure, if I go to work every day (where we are constantly electronically monitored), mind my own business, what me worry? I guess I just don't see how any kind of digital survellience should worry law-abiding citizens. Just my opinion.

rockzilla

I gotta agree with Gov, as long as I'm not breaking any laws, all that the cameras are seeing is me... not breaking any laws. The only thing I ask for is a sign that says something to the effect of "These premisies are monitored by video survellience equipment"

Damn, now I've got that Rockwell song stuck in my head... "I always feel like somebody's watching me... can't get no privacy"

Charlatan

It is just this sort of attitude... "As long as I'm not breaking any laws it's OK" That allows for our privacy to eroded.

We have a right to privacy in public and in private. We are living in the Panopticon... were our actions are dictated by the unseen watchers.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

BBtB

Eh public spaces are just that. Public spaces. Even if there are not cameras you ARE constantly being watched. By everyone else around there. It dosn't really bother me so much. For two reasons, one because I see it as inevitable. And two because people seem to be afraid that one day their entire lives will be watched and scrutinized. The only problem with that is even if everyone one of has had a 24/7 camera on us you would still need people to watch the video tape. And we are talking ALOT of video tape. Trust me when I say atleast 85% of surveillance video being taken now is not being watched. The cameras are normally enough. Which also makes your fears of dime sized cameras a little off. As more and more cameras pop off less and less of them will be watched. Electronic prices may be going down and down but manpower prices keep going up and up.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

Charlatan

True that much isn't being watch but that is just the point of a panopticon... You don't know when you are being watch and when you aren't. Therefore you must assume you are always being watch (the panopticon was a model for a prison without bars...).

While at this time there is very little actual watching of the tapes that is occuring, however two things occur to me:

1) If "they" want to track your movements on the highway system. At present it is possible using the traffic cams. It isn't much of a leap to move beyond the highways onto regular streets.

2) Manpower. As facial recognition software gets better (and probably much cheaper if software trends hold true) then it will not be a matter of manpower just "smart" cameras.

The main difference between people seeing me in a public space and a camera is a) that I'm not always aware of the camera b) people are sometimes not around the camera always will be (I've been to a major intersection in the middle of the night to find it deserted).

The more of this we accept the closer we get to an implicit police state.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Prophecy

I have mixed fixings about this topic but I generally agree that quote from Charlatan. If my neighborhood starting putting up cameras I'd be angry. However when I go to Wal-Mart and the like, I expect to see cameras. After all it is Wal-Mart's property from the store to the parking lot. The stores are just protecting their interests. However, if something happened and I got accused of something that I didn't do b/c of parking lot video tape , I would be of a different mind....

__________________
La Disciplina È La Mia Spada,
La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

ARTelevision

I'm not paranoid.
I'm OK with surveillance.
I don't expect privacy.
This isn't my world.
I'm not in control of the world.
It's not my job to protect society.
I'm concerned about other things.
Most people who are concerned about privacy lead very boring lives that no one is interested in.
I think maybe they want to glamorize or flatter themselves thinking their privacy would be worth anyone's time or effort to penetrate.

__________________
create evolution

uncle phil

not often, but every once in a while, i'll formulate an opinion in my head as i scroll through a thread, only to find that, by the end of the thread, art has come up with the essence of my opinion on the matter at hand. this is one of those times...

__________________
"We were wrong, terribly wrong. (We) should not have tried to fight a guerrilla war with conventional military tactics against a foe willing to absorb enormous casualties...in a country lacking the fundamental political stability necessary to conduct effective military and pacification operations. It could not be done and it was not done."
- Robert S. McNamara
-----------------------------------------
"We will take our napalm and flame throwers out of the land that scarcely knows the use of matches...
We will leave you your small joys and smaller troubles."
- Eugene McCarthy in "Vietnam Message"
-----------------------------------------
never wrestle with a pig.
you both get dirty;
the pig likes it.

BBtB

That about sums it up right there.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

Frowning Budah

True story. Three girls were recently arrested, drug out of school transported across the country and thrown in Jail. Why? Because a surveillance camera at a bank noticed they were having trouble using an ATM card and later a suspected Kidnap victim's card was used at that same ATM. They were finally released because further studies showed that the timing was slightly different between the girls and the card usage. Lucky girls. That someone went back and checked again. Don't tell me that if you aren't doing anything wrong you don't have to worry.

BentNotTwisted

Frowning, I read the same story. It is disconcerting, but it is the exception, rather than the rule. BTW, only two of them were dragged cross country, the third was put in local juvenile detention. What kills me is the two were released and not given any kind of apology nor any funds to return home.

ART, as always, thank you for your insight.

__________________
IS THAT IT ???!!!
Do you even know what 'it' is?

When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

BBtB

I hope they sue(d). Thats just wrong. They were arrested because they were a suspected kidnap victim? Or they thought they kidnaped the person and were trying to use their card ... across the country? At any rate as Bentnot mentioned that is an exception and defintly not the rule.

__________________
Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ...

"I would like about three fiddy"

BentNotTwisted

The three girls had been on a school trip at the time the ATM camera caught their mugs. They returned home and were arrested weeks later.

__________________
IS THAT IT ???!!!
Do you even know what 'it' is?

When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

phredgreen

i have a camera that broadcasts an image of my computer room to the internet once every 60 seconds.

however...

i can turn it off at any time.

I am all about surveilance in public. the only ones who should be worried about it are the ones who are afraid to get caught doing something... i have no fear of it, people and businesses have to protect their assets. that is where i draw the line. when i walk inside my home, i expect and will con\tinue to expect any privacy i wish. i will not allow my life to be monitored and checked upon without my express permission. i will never submit to any kind of government-controlled monitoring within my own home. that is the line i won't cross.

__________________
My country is the world, and my religion is to do good.
- Thomas Paine

BentNotTwisted

I finally realized what it is that bothers me about the whole surveillance thing. It's not that I don't like being watched in public. I couldn't care less what others see me do. It's the unknown that bothers me.
So many new technologies are created today without any thought given to how they will affect the world. Take Ricin for instance. It's made from a byproduct of castor oil and is one of the most toxic substances known. Now anyone with an internet connection can find the recipe for it and poison thousands of people.
I worry about what will happen when surveillance cameras are everywhere and we realize a threat from them that we haven't thought of today. We can't go back. We can't say, 'Ok, we made a mistake with putting up all this monitoring equipment. Now we have to throw it all in the trash.' It will be here, for better or worse. Hopefully for the better.

__________________
IS THAT IT ???!!!
Do you even know what 'it' is?

When the last man dies for just words that he said... We Shall Be Free

madsenj37

Just the idea of being watched is a good deterant for most people not to commit crimes.

__________________
"Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe."
-- Albert Einstein

krwlz

Ever see Enemy Of the State ?

Well, keep in mind, that Hollywood can not use any Gov't Technology in their movies unless it is at least 5 years old.

When did that movie come out? '95 or so?

Yea, we are being watched, we don't know it, and the majority of the people don't care.

I will repeat: American Society is fucked in the long term.

billege

We already are being watched all the time, there are people everywhere. They see you.

What you mean is: You fear responsibility for your own actions.

__________________
I can sum up the clash of religion in one sentence:
"My Invisible Friend is better than your Invisible Friend."

Sparhawk

1984 was a typo.

/can't believe he's quoting 'Hackers'

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

Daval

Camera's in public places don't bother me.

__________________
"It is impossible to obtain a conviction for sodomy from an English jury. Half of them don't believe that it can physically be done, and the other half are doing it."
Winston Churchill

komodo

Read David Brin's The Transparent Society. He talks at length about the ramifications of having everywhere monitored by video cameras... and why it's not necessarily a bad thing. The cameras are only monitoring the outdoors/businesses/government offices... and if you're committing a crime there, you deserve to be caught and punished.

Most importantly, he talks about the "observation factor". This is essentially what makes Joe Schmoe safe from people watching his every move... they simply don't care about him. THe more important a person is, the more carefully they are watched and the less likely it is that they will get away with any illegal activity.

However! He does point out that if the cameras are controlled only by the government, we're screwed. Everyone needs to have equal access to everything to make sure information isn't being hoarded or destroyed.

Sparhawk

A lot of people here have no problem it seems with surveillance.

A few questions then:

Do you ever speed?
Ever run a red light?
Have you ever run a stop sign?

Do you think everyone, everywhere should be fined every time they commit an infraction? I do admit it would solve a great many of the states' budget problems, but how would all of you feel about it?

The end result of this, IMO:
*BZZZZ*
"John Spartan, You have been fined one credit for violation of the Verbal Morality Statute."

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

komodo

TO start with.... Sparhawk, it seems interesting to me that you advocate the legislation of morality in the abortion ban thread, then decide to come over here and say its a bad thing.

Anyway. If you speed, run red lights, or go the wrong way through one way streets... HELL YES YOU DESERVE TO BE FINED. Those laws are on the books for a reason- keep accidents from occuring. I've known one too many people who got killed by someone not obeying traffic laws (my dad) to say that running a red light isn't a big deal.

Sparhawk

I sympathize very much with your loss, komodo.

As far as the other thread goes, I was making the point that many supporters of anti-abortion haven't any interest in abolishing the death penalty, so the way I worded it was purposefully facetious. I am both pro-life and anti-death penalty, but my privacy concerns/distrust of the government tell me to doubt first, then ask questions and doubt some more. Which is a good segue into a response for this thread: where do the cameras stop? when is it no longer cameras, but audio recordings? when is smoking completely banned? liquor, red meat, guns, salt, swearing. Another *probably* facetious reply, I apologize. Hopefully it makes a point.

__________________
"In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."