Wheelchair bound florida woman dies after police taser her.. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

lindalove · 04-26-2006, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Fla. Woman Dies After Taser Gun Shock

GREEN COVE SPRINGS, Fla.

A woman in a wheelchair who swung knives and a hammer at relatives and police died after being shocked by a stun gun, officials said.

Police tried to talk Emily Marie Delafield, 56, into dropping the weapons before they used the Taser to subdue her Monday, Police Chief Robert Musco said. Delafield lost consciousness after the electric jolt and later died at Orange Park Medical Center.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement is investigating and an autopsy will be conducted to determine a cause of death.

The two officers involved have been put on paid administrative leave during the investigation, which is standard procedure.

Tasers deliver a 50,000-volt jolt through two barbed darts that can penetrate clothing. About 7,000 of the nation's 18,000 police agencies had them last year, and they were used by police more than 70,000 times.

Amnesty International counted 61 U.S. deaths following Taser use last year. Taser International officials disputed that count, saying it linked some deaths to Taser use when there had been no such official conclusion.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/04/25/D8H74A0G0.html

I'm not sure what to say here - tasers are a bit extreme if you ask me.

There had to be another way of handling this with someone in a wheelchair.

It's not like she's fully mobile in a wheelchair.

Jeff · 04-27-2006, 12:31 AM

They shoulda just tipped her over.

analog · 04-27-2006, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lindalove

I'm not sure what to say here - tasers are a bit extreme if you ask me.

There had to be another way of handling this with someone in a wheelchair.

It's not like she's fully mobile in a wheelchair.

Swinging knives and a hammer is extreme. How else do you subdue someone like that? Did you want them to shoot her? I'm very thankful for the tasers. There are too many instances where a police officer is threatened by a person- what do you want them to do, shoot them all? Sometimes, that was the only option- call for backup, try not to have to shoot, and pray to God your reluctance to shoot doesn't cost your own life.

I don't care if they're 100 years old and in a motorized chair, totally paralyzed from the neck down except for one arm- if that one arm is swinging a knife at a cop and threatening them, and the police can't safely get close enough to disarm them, they should be tasered.

You do not threaten or endanger the life of a police officer. Period.

moot1337 · 04-27-2006, 01:37 AM

What the fuck happened to good, ole fashioned MACE? Huh? That seems a FAR less likely to be lethal alternative to a taser or gun, especially for those who aren't going to have much resistance to it, like a 56 year old in a wheelchair. While I agree that the authorities have every right to defend themselves and others from attacks like this, what they did in this case was an example of not thinking through the situation, and using the fix-all alternative on someone who would have been much more easily subdued.

A taser is a weapon that has the capacity to kill its target, especially when misused. It's made to be effective in most all cases, which means that it's overkill for a good pecentage of them. Police do still carry pepper spray, right? It's easy to misunderstand the pressure involved in a situation, but how hard is it to think something like, 200lb assailant with weapons=taser, grandma with a hammer/knife=spray? Seems we can get carried away when new technology is presented to us.

analog · 04-27-2006, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moot1337

A taser is a weapon that has the capacity to kill its target, especially when misused.

1. No one said or suggested, in any way, that it was misused. If you're the one suggesting misuse, i'd like to know why you think that, and what you're offering to back up your guesswork.
2. "Capacity to kill" is a bullshit throw-away term. Lots of things can kill a person. I can kill a person with two fingers. If they sprayed her with mace, the chemicals could have thrown her respiratory system into arrest. You don't know that. Not to mention the fact that they might not carry mace, if they carry tasers.

Quote:

It's made to be effective in most all cases, which means that it's overkill for a good pecentage of them.

I'd like to see the numbers to support that rather lofty claim.

Quote:

It's easy to misunderstand the pressure involved in a situation, but how hard is it to think something like, 200lb assailant with weapons=taser, grandma with a hammer/knife=spray? Seems we can get carried away when new technology is presented to us.

It's even easier to misunderstand the situation when you weren't there, and definitely don't have all the facts. I don't think, from what I read, there was any kind of "being carried away" here.

And If this "grandma with a hammer" managed to throw the hammer or a knife and seriously wound an officer after having been maced, were mace an option, I don't believe your tone would be the same.

Zyr · 04-27-2006, 02:11 AM

I think this is just a tragic accident. She was a threat to people, including an officer. Mace could have killed her too, and is far less restraining. The police were right to taser her, wheelchair or no.

Da Munk · 04-27-2006, 02:22 AM

If she didn't want to get hit with a taser she probably shouldn't be swinging knives and hammers at her family members and police officers.

cyrnel · 04-27-2006, 04:14 AM

I know there are times an active nutjob needs to be taken down, but a retiree in a wheelchair shouldn't be tough. Hell, close the door if you need to puzzle over it for awhile. Use a net. We've all heard enough taser "events" to know the list needs other "non-lethal" solutions.

Charlatan · 04-27-2006, 05:08 AM

Why not just back away and let her calm down? Diffuse the situation rather than escalate.

Sure she was wrong to be swing knives and hammers. But if you leave her in her room or house and close the doors, she will have to calm down sometime. It isn't like she could get very far.

Ustwo · 04-27-2006, 05:09 AM

Equal rights for the handicaped means being tasered now and then.

Toaster126 · 04-27-2006, 05:15 AM

You swing a hammer and knife at cops, you get tasered. I think that is completely acceptable, and I can't think of the mitigating circumstances that would stop that from being a good idea.

samcol · 04-27-2006, 05:24 AM

If police can't outsmart someone in a wheelchair throwing things, they don't deserve to be an officer. Like Charaltan and cyrnel said, just let her wear herself out. I can't imagine willfully inflicting that kind of pain on an old lady in a wheelchair.

This isn't exactly a rare instance either. About every other week you get a report of police shocking someone to death.

Are we more safe or less safe with police officers who are willing to shock 8 year olds and people in wheel chairs?

maleficent · 04-27-2006, 05:29 AM

56 is not exactly old...

The family called the police to settle a dispute in the home... The family didn't feel safe leaving her in a locked room.

The police are supposed to wait out a person waving knives with them... What would have happened if this woman hurt someone - the police would have been blamed for inaction...

56 is not old

Green Springs Cove Data

The town itself isn't exactly a crime free haven... US average is 329.7 - Green SPrings Cove is 473.6 - for a really small town...

The cops have to do what they have to do...

maleficent · 04-27-2006, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

This isn't exactly a rare instance either. About every other week you get a report of police shocking someone to death.

The number of deaths in 2005 was 61, so it's a little higher than one a week...

USA: Renewed call for suspension as taser-related deaths pass 150 mark

Quote:

Amnesty International today called on law enforcement agencies in the US to suspend the use of electro-shock taser weapons pending an independent, rigorous and impartial inquiry into their use.

The organization published a report,"USA: Amnesty International's continuing concerns about taser use", that details the organisation's research on taser use in the US and expresses serious concern over:

· the significant year-on-year increase in taser related deaths;
· the lack of any independent and rigorous study into the health effects of the electro-shock devices;
· the fact that despite these safety concerns, tasers continue to be used in the US as a routine force tool rather than as weapon of last resort;
· continued reports of excessive use of tasers, in some cases amounting to torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment.

Amnesty International said that should law enforcement agencies in the US continue to use tasers, they should only be used strictly as a substitute for lethal force.

"The mounting death toll of people shocked by tasers makes the need for a full, independent and rigorous inquiry more urgent than ever," said Susan Lee, Director of Amnesty International's Americas Programme.

More than 150 people have died in the US after being struck by tasers since June 2001 -- 61 in 2005 alone -- and numbers are continuing to rise. Most who died were subjected to multiple or prolonged shocks. While in most cases deaths have continued to be attributed to factors other than the taser, such as "excited delirium" associated with drug intoxication or violent struggle, in 23 cases coroners have listed the use of the taser as a cause or a contributory factor in death.

In three cases in 2005, the taser was listed as a primary cause of death.

Amnesty International believes there may be more cases where the taser cannot be ruled out as a possible factor in the deaths. Recent studies have cited the need for more research into potential adverse effects from taser shocks on people who are agitated or under the influence of drugs or who are subjected to multiple or prolonged shocks.

Amnesty International's continued research into the use of the weapons, including a review of taser-related deaths since the publication of the organisation's previous report in November 2004, reveals that most who died after being shocked with tasers were unarmed men who did not appear to pose a threat of death or serious injury at the time that they were electro-shocked. The use of the taser was often accompanied by the use of restraints and chemical incapacitant sprays. Importantly, the organisation's research showed that most who died went into cardiac or respiratory arrest at the scene.

Studies conducted over the last year -- since the publication of Amnesty International's previous report -- have not met the organization's criteria for an independent, impartial and comprehensive study. The studies have been limited in scope and methodology and have relied mostly on data provided by one of the manufacturers of the weapons -- Taser International -- and police departments themselves. None of the studies has included an analysis of the deaths listed in Amnesty International's reports on taser use in the USA.

"Any study should be independent of any commercial or security interests and should be carried out by a reputable and independent party that has no connection to any manufacturer of these electro-shock devices," said Susan Lee.

The organization also expressed concern that tasers continue to be used as a "routine force tool" rather than as a weapon of last resort by law enforcement agencies in the US. In some law-enforcement agencies, the use of tasers is allowed if a person simply does not comply with an officer's demands.

"It is extremely disturbing that tasers are continuing to be used in circumstances in which the suspect does not pose a serious threat to police officers, the public or themselves -- especially given the serious safety concerns around their use," said Susan Lee. "These weapons should never be considered a 'low' or 'intermediate' force option."

Amnesty International is particularly concerned that vulnerable groups such as children, the disabled, pregnant women and people with mental illnesses are also being subjected to electric shocks from tasers -- in some cases amounting to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, or torture.

The organization said it continues to receive reports of individuals being subjected to taser shocks while already handcuffed or having been placed in mechanical restraints. It has also received reports of tasers being used to control unruly or uncooperative schoolchildren.

Background
Tasers are powerful electrical weapons used by over 7,000 of the 18,000 law enforcement agencies in the USA. They are designed to incapacitate by conducting 50,000 volts of electricity into an individual's body. The electrical pulses induce skeletal muscle spasms that immobilise and incapacitate the individual, causing them to fall to the ground.

In November 2004 Amnesty International published a comprehensive report detailing it's concerns over the use of tasers in the USA, calling for a suspension on their use and transfer pending an independent, rigorous and impartial inquiry into their use. See “USA: Excessive and lethal force? Amnesty International's concerns about deaths and ill-treatment involving tasers”

Bill O'Rights · 04-27-2006, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Why not just back away and let her calm down? Diffuse the situation rather than escalate.

Sure she was wrong to be swing knives and hammers. But if you leave her in her room or house and close the doors, she will have to calm down sometime. It isn't like she could get very far.

I'll field this one.
Because, there is no right way to handle any situation...until it's over. It's extremely easy to look back on any given situation and say "This is what should've happened". Even the police themselves do it. Trust me.

Let's say that by allowing the lady to "wear herself down", she ends up injuring herself. Then the police are villified for not taking a proactive approach to the situation. They just stood around with their thumbs up their collective asses. Again...trust me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Equal rights for the handicaped means being tasered now and then.

That...may be the funniest thing that I've seen this week.

MageB420666 · 04-27-2006, 06:24 AM

I'm gonna go ahead and say that the police were within bounds to use a taser on this woman. I worked in a psychiatric hospital as a program counselor(think of an orderly for job description) for 9 months. Part of my job was helping restrain patients when they became a danger to themselves or others. So let me just say this, a 56 yr. old woman weilding a knife, in a wheelchair or not, is DANGEROUS*. You would be suprised at how quickly a person you think harmless can move and how quickly they will strike out with little to or warning. Even a police officer moving in tandem with another one could have easily been hurt, maimed or killed trying to subdue the woman in closed proximity. As for a net, it may limit her motion some, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to stab through it when the police moved in to disarm her. Regardless of how ridiculous it may look in your head to picture a woman in a wheelchair as being a danger to police officers, you would be wrong. As for locking her in a room and letting her cool down, what if she had gone into a depressive state realizing she had just threatened her family and killed herself? It is not a safe option to leave someone who is agitated to that extreme by themselves.

*Not that any of the patients I worked with ever got a hold of a knife while at the hospital, but I could just imagine the havoc that would ensue if they did.

CSflim · 04-27-2006, 06:32 AM

Knife-weilding psycho wheelchair-bound granny on the lose.....

Quick! Run up the stairs!

Lasereth · 04-27-2006, 06:34 AM

So the old lady deserves special treatment and the ability to waste real cops hours away just because she's in a wheelchair? If you endanger a cop, you're endangering yourself. Not hard to understand. It's tragic that the shock resulted in her death, but blaming ANY of this on the cops is ridiculous.

Jinn · 04-27-2006, 06:38 AM

So much second guessing by people who weren't there. "Oh they're stupid because they couldn't outsmart a lady in a wheelchair." And "oh they should have used mace."

Unless you were there, I know you can't tell me that their INTENT was to kill this lady.

I urge you to check out:

http://www.taser.com/facts/testimonials.htm

Tasers are something upwards of 98% non-fatal. Guns? I dare you to find a statistic showing the fatality rates of them.

Swinging knives and hammers at your FAMILY AND police officers? TASER please!

BigBen · 04-27-2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Equal rights for the handicaped means being tasered now and then.

This is in close running for my new sig.

What about her hurting HERSELF with the weapons she was wielding?

I think the action was justified in this circumstance, and am thankful that the good people at Taser Inc. created a less-than-lethal alternative to the police.

The media would have grabbed onto this anyway. Crazy + violent + wheelchair = evening news. I would have liked to see a 275 pound cop cold-cock her in the jaw. Imagine the fall-out from that?

Cops defence: "I didn't feel safe Tasering her, because that might kill her. So I just threw my weight into the punch and broke her jaw. Hey, it got the job done..."

How many Taser deaths are associated with huge quantities of drugs running through the "Victim's" bloodstream? Meth, PCP, Steroids. I would like to see those numbers.

And for me to be ENTIRELY POLITICALLY INCORRECT: Spoiler: How many law enforcement officers using Tasers have been 95 pound females? These competent, intelligent, seasoned officers MUST escalate their level of force when confronted in a physical situation. A 275 pound man can walk into violence and not resort to pepper spray, Tasers or a baton. He wades in and gets the job done. The Woman has to reach for her Batman utility belt when someone sneezes.

cyrnel · 04-27-2006, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

So much second guessing by people who weren't there.
...
Unless you were there, I know you can't tell me that their INTENT was to kill this lady.

We're all guessing, no?

politicophile · 04-27-2006, 08:32 AM

I must have missed the section of the Americans with Disabilities Act that gives special privileges to the handicapped when they are actively threatening police officers with deadly weapons.

The only think I dislike about tasers is the spelling: TAZOR is much more threatening.

Charlatan · 04-27-2006, 08:41 AM

Not one of you who advocates the tazoring of this woman has given a reason why they couldn't just back away and let her calm down.

She's in a wheelchair... it isn't like she was going to chase them down and jump them with her knife. I think it is pretty safe to say, they could have kept clear of her kitchen knives and hammers.

I can agree that there are situations where force and tazoring is neccessary... this just doesn't smell right.

OK, I missed some responses... (rereading)

maleficent · 04-27-2006, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Not one of you who advocates the tazoring of this woman has given a reason why they couldn't just back away and let her calm down.
.

the family was the one who called the police in... why didn't the family wait for her to calm down?

Why shoudl the police stand around waiting for something that might or might not happen... when something worse could potentially happen?

Charlatan · 04-27-2006, 08:46 AM

Why not? Their job isn't to process a scene as quickly as possible. It is to serve and protect.

I did think about the possibility that she might hurt herself. I figure, if she hurt herself, it would be better than hurting someone else.

Again, it all depends on the situation and since no of us were there we are just armchair quarterbacking this one.

As it reads, I still say you back away and bring it down a notch or two. It's what they would have done if they didn't have tazers.

Ace_O_Spades · 04-27-2006, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Why not? Their job isn't to process a scene as quickly as possible. It is to serve and protect.

AHA! And here steps in one fundamental misconception the public have of police work. Many police organizations' only measure of police efficiency is clearance rates - number of cases closed/resolved divided by total number of reports. Job efficiency is paramount. Clear as many cases as you can, as fast as you can, and you'll get promoted.

Quote:

I did think about the possibility that she might hurt herself. I figure, if she hurt herself, it would be better than hurting someone else.

The police are obligated to stop both of these from occurring. Nobody can consent to bodily harm on themselves, and the police are obligated to stop you if you are doing it. This is why just locking her in a room is a totally unacceptable response option. De-escalating the situation when someone has a knife and a hammer, whether they're able bodied, in a wheelchair, or have leprosy, is all tantamount to the same thing: disabling the threat of force to the offender and complaintant alike.

Quote:

Again, it all depends on the situation and since no of us were there we are just armchair quarterbacking this one.

As it reads, I still say you back away and bring it down a notch or two. It's what they would have done if they didn't have tazers.

The Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle is an intermediate force option between open hand techniques and deadly force.

Asking a police officer to get within 15ft of someone with a knife puts them at risk of death. So automatically open hand techniques are out the window as a likely response option.

This leaves intermediate force options such as pepper spray, the TASER, etc. In many police departments, the use of the TASER has supplanted the use of pepper spray / mace. Likely because it is immediately effectivel as opposed to 5-30 seconds for pepper spray and mace. They both also require you to get within the danger zone in order to use them.

Like you said, we're armchairing this one. However, this is a perfect example of the police being in a media fishbowl. Every action is scrutinized when the people doing the scrutinizing have no idea what went on, and don't have the capacity to present the full and complete story due to a lack of information from the police.

I have faith that in this case the police officers exercised the correct response based on potential and perceived immediate threats to the lives of family members and the woman herself.

samcol · 04-27-2006, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

The police are obligated to stop both of these from occurring. Nobody can consent to bodily harm on themselves, and the police are obligated to stop you if you are doing it. This is why just locking her in a room is a totally unacceptable response option. De-escalating the situation when someone has a knife and a hammer, whether they're able bodied, in a wheelchair, or have leprosy, is all tantamount to the same thing: disabling the threat of force to the offender and complaintant alike.

I love the logic there. She MIGHT hurt herself so lets go ahead and hurt her to prevent that and subsequently kill her in the process.

I still stand by the notion that this was excessive force and uncalled for.

guthmund · 04-27-2006, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by politicophile

The only think I dislike about tasers is the spelling: TAZOR is much more threatening.

Wasn't he an American Gladiator?

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

I love the logic there. She MIGHT hurt herself so lets go ahead and hurt her to prevent that and subsequently kill her in the process. I still stand by the notion that this was excessive force and uncalled for.

Sounds pretty solid to me. Seems to me most police forces (military...whatever...) respond to the expectation of violence rather than the actual violent act itself.

They certainly could've let her work it out of her system and locked her in a room, but what if crazy-knife lady opened a vein or started poking holes in herself? What then? How well would that have played out? I imagine then we'd all be wondering why they didn't just taser her in the first place.

I don't care that they zapped her. As long as they exhausted all available options and weighed the consequences before they tagged crazy-knife lady, which from my armchair, it seems like they did. I mean, how desperate do you have to be to think that tasering a geriatric in a wheelchair is a good solution to your problem?

BigBen · 04-27-2006, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace_O_Spades

...The Thomas A. Swift Electric Rifle is an intermediate force option between open hand techniques and deadly force. ...

Asking a police officer to get within 15ft of someone with a knife puts them at risk of death. So automatically open hand techniques are out the window as a likely response option....

OOOOooooooh.

I am impressed with your command of the acronym. I didn't know that is what TASER stood for.

On the other hand, my impression wanes somewhat when I hear that you jump for the Tommy Swift Juice Machine as soon as you see someone with something in their hands at 15 feet.

edit: The rest of this post was a poorly written flame against the hard working men and women of law enforcement. I honour the memory of officers killed in the line of duty by standing beside them politically. They deserve the utmost respect a citizen can give them.

I apologize.

maleficent · 04-27-2006, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

As it reads, I still say you back away and bring it down a notch or two. It's what they would have done if they didn't have tazers.

How do you know that they didn't try to bring it down a notch or two... The story says they tried to talk to her -- the taser might have been a last resort...

Charlatan · 04-27-2006, 11:52 AM

I don't. I just keep thinking, she's in a wheelchair. She can't really jump someone.

The only reason to do this is:

a) she has a hold of someone or someone cornered and is threatening them
b) she is going to hurt herself

I just don't see an old woman in a wheelchair being as much of a threat as a one who is not in a wheelchair.

Heck, you could get a long stick and knock over her wheelchair... it would have probably been safer.

Shooting an old person with a Taser is just not the smartest thing to do.

Don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending granny's actions here. She was out of line... but it just seems to me that other things could have been done.

Again, what would they have done if they didn't have a taser (as many Police departments don't)?

Bill O'Rights · 04-27-2006, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Heck, you could get a long stick and knock over her wheelchair... it would have probably been safer.

Again...hindsight...20/20...armchair quaterbacking. Let's look at it this way. How would that have looked splashed all over the newspapers? "Police knock over little old lady in a wheelchair". I can just hear the outcry. "But why, why, oh why couldn't they just have tasered her, instead of brutally knocking her over in her wheel chair? Bullies!"

Trust me...there is no way to win these things. No...way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Shooting an old person with a Taser is just not the smartest thing to do.

Old person?!? She was 56. That's (*counts fingers*) 13 years away for me! How insensitive of you. You'll be hearing from the AARP. You just mark my words.

Charlatan · 04-27-2006, 12:16 PM

Sorry about the slight. It's not nice to tease the aged.

maleficent · 04-27-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Sorry about the slight. It's not nice to tease the aged.

damn young whippersnappers... no respect i tells ya no respect at all...

raeanna74 · 04-27-2006, 12:28 PM

What was she so pissed about anyway??

There was no better way to solve the situation. For all they knew they'd stun her just enough to disarm her and the situation would be ended. Tazors can be controlled depending on their setup. Some can have settings, some you only old the button for 1, 2 or 3 second. That sort of thing. So For all we know they only set it low.
But with the kind of tazor that has prongs, they would have to remove the prongs so they couldn't set it too low and not have it work either.

I will be interested to know what was actually the cause of death. Electrical charges should not cause heart failure unless the charge passes through the heart. With a Tazor the prongs conduct the charge from one prong straight to the other and in theory should have no effect on the heart.

I hope the cops don't get into any more trouble for this.

maleficent · 04-27-2006, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

What was she so pissed about anyway??
.

every news story on this - has said it was a family disturbance - and the family called in the police...

I could speculate anything -- she was drunk... dementia (I know how strong my 85 pound grandmother was when she was having an episode)... mental illness...

I've seen no reports that the family tried to stop the police from using the tazer... or that there's a lawsuit pending... (yet...)

Grasshopper Green · 04-27-2006, 12:41 PM

Just because you're in a wheelchair doesn't give you the right to act a fool without repercussions. If I read correctly, the police TRIED to talk her into dropping the weapons before they tasered her. As it's already been mentioned...she could have thrown a knife at someone, and the cops would have been flamed for not doing something before she injured someone. The cops were probably just doing what they felt was right at the time...and sadly, the woman paid the ultimate price for her serious lack of judgment.

florida0214 · 04-27-2006, 01:29 PM

Lesson to be learned. Throw knives at a cop and you may not live to joke about it. Stupid people do stupid things and sometimes they get what they deserve. By that I mean getting tasered not dying. The police used the amount of force they assesed to be appropriate. Didn't knw it would kill her. Kind of a sucks to her thing.

hulk · 04-27-2006, 10:26 PM

Jumping back to the figures on page one, 70,000 taser uses and 60-something deaths. One in a thousand isn't a bad figure compared to what the alternative may have been. Bullets cause more deaths than tasers.

G5_Todd · 04-27-2006, 11:05 PM

monday morning quarter backing is lame....

but i hope someone atleast said "hey mamn have a seat we'll be right with you"

04-27-2006, 12:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
Jeff And we'll all float on ok... Location: Iowa City	They shoulda just tipped her over. __________________ For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command or faith a dictum. I am my own God. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us. --Charles Bukowski

04-27-2006, 01:37 AM	#4 (permalink)
moot1337 Insane Location: Learning to Fly...	What the fuck happened to good, ole fashioned MACE? Huh? That seems a FAR less likely to be lethal alternative to a taser or gun, especially for those who aren't going to have much resistance to it, like a 56 year old in a wheelchair. While I agree that the authorities have every right to defend themselves and others from attacks like this, what they did in this case was an example of not thinking through the situation, and using the fix-all alternative on someone who would have been much more easily subdued. A taser is a weapon that has the capacity to kill its target, especially when misused. It's made to be effective in most all cases, which means that it's overkill for a good pecentage of them. Police do still carry pepper spray, right? It's easy to misunderstand the pressure involved in a situation, but how hard is it to think something like, 200lb assailant with weapons=taser, grandma with a hammer/knife=spray? Seems we can get carried away when new technology is presented to us. __________________ And that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. Explain again how sheeps' bladders may be employed to prevent earthquakes. Oh, certainly, sir. Last edited by moot1337; 04-27-2006 at 01:40 AM..

04-27-2006, 02:11 AM	#6 (permalink)
Zyr Crazy Location: Hamilton, NZ	I think this is just a tragic accident. She was a threat to people, including an officer. Mace could have killed her too, and is far less restraining. The police were right to taser her, wheelchair or no. __________________ "Oh, irony! Oh, no, no, we don't get that here. See, uh, people ski topless here while smoking dope, so irony's not really a high priority. We haven't had any irony here since about, uh, '83 when I was the only practitioner of it, and I stopped because I was tired of being stared at." Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis. All things change, and we change with them. - Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602

04-27-2006, 04:14 AM	#8 (permalink)
cyrnel Adequate Location: In my angry-dome.	I know there are times an active nutjob needs to be taken down, but a retiree in a wheelchair shouldn't be tough. Hell, close the door if you need to puzzle over it for awhile. Use a net. We've all heard enough taser "events" to know the list needs other "non-lethal" solutions. __________________ There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

04-27-2006, 05:08 AM	#9 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Why not just back away and let her calm down? Diffuse the situation rather than escalate. Sure she was wrong to be swing knives and hammers. But if you leave her in her room or house and close the doors, she will have to calm down sometime. It isn't like she could get very far. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-27-2006, 02:22 AM	#7 (permalink)
Da Munk Crazy	If she didn't want to get hit with a taser she probably shouldn't be swinging knives and hammers at her family members and police officers.

04-27-2006, 05:09 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Equal rights for the handicaped means being tasered now and then. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-27-2006, 05:15 AM	#11 (permalink)
Toaster126 Extreme moderation Location: Kansas City, yo.	You swing a hammer and knife at cops, you get tasered. I think that is completely acceptable, and I can't think of the mitigating circumstances that would stop that from being a good idea. __________________ "The question isn't who is going to let me, it's who is going to stop me." (Ayn Rand) "The truth is that our finest moments are most likely to occur when we are feeling deeply uncomfortable, unhappy, or unfulfilled. For it is only in such moments, propelled by our discomfort, that we are likely to step out of our ruts and start searching for different ways or truer answers." (M. Scott Peck)

04-27-2006, 05:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	If police can't outsmart someone in a wheelchair throwing things, they don't deserve to be an officer. Like Charaltan and cyrnel said, just let her wear herself out. I can't imagine willfully inflicting that kind of pain on an old lady in a wheelchair. This isn't exactly a rare instance either. About every other week you get a report of police shocking someone to death. Are we more safe or less safe with police officers who are willing to shock 8 year olds and people in wheel chairs?

04-27-2006, 05:29 AM	#13 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	56 is not exactly old... The family called the police to settle a dispute in the home... The family didn't feel safe leaving her in a locked room. The police are supposed to wait out a person waving knives with them... What would have happened if this woman hurt someone - the police would have been blamed for inaction... 56 is not old Green Springs Cove Data The town itself isn't exactly a crime free haven... US average is 329.7 - Green SPrings Cove is 473.6 - for a really small town... The cops have to do what they have to do... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less. Last edited by maleficent; 04-27-2006 at 05:34 AM..

04-27-2006, 06:24 AM	#16 (permalink)
MageB420666 <Insert wise statement here> Location: Hell if I know	I'm gonna go ahead and say that the police were within bounds to use a taser on this woman. I worked in a psychiatric hospital as a program counselor(think of an orderly for job description) for 9 months. Part of my job was helping restrain patients when they became a danger to themselves or others. So let me just say this, a 56 yr. old woman weilding a knife, in a wheelchair or not, is DANGEROUS. You would be suprised at how quickly a person you think harmless can move and how quickly they will strike out with little to or warning. Even a police officer moving in tandem with another one could have easily been hurt, maimed or killed trying to subdue the woman in closed proximity. As for a net, it may limit her motion some, but that doesn't mean she wouldn't be able to stab through it when the police moved in to disarm her. Regardless of how ridiculous it may look in your head to picture a woman in a wheelchair as being a danger to police officers, you would be wrong. As for locking her in a room and letting her cool down, what if she had gone into a depressive state realizing she had just threatened her family and killed herself? It is not a safe option to leave someone who is agitated to that extreme by themselves. Not that any of the patients I worked with ever got a hold of a knife while at the hospital, but I could just imagine the havoc that would ensue if they did. __________________ Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

04-27-2006, 06:32 AM	#17 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Knife-weilding psycho wheelchair-bound granny on the lose..... Quick! Run up the stairs! __________________

04-27-2006, 06:34 AM	#18 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	So the old lady deserves special treatment and the ability to waste real cops hours away just because she's in a wheelchair? If you endanger a cop, you're endangering yourself. Not hard to understand. It's tragic that the shock resulted in her death, but blaming ANY of this on the cops is ridiculous. __________________ "A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

04-27-2006, 06:38 AM	#19 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	So much second guessing by people who weren't there. "Oh they're stupid because they couldn't outsmart a lady in a wheelchair." And "oh they should have used mace." Unless you were there, I know you can't tell me that their INTENT was to kill this lady. I urge you to check out: http://www.taser.com/facts/testimonials.htm Tasers are something upwards of 98% non-fatal. Guns? I dare you to find a statistic showing the fatality rates of them. Swinging knives and hammers at your FAMILY AND police officers? TASER please! __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

04-27-2006, 08:32 AM	#22 (permalink)
politicophile Addict	I must have missed the section of the Americans with Disabilities Act that gives special privileges to the handicapped when they are actively threatening police officers with deadly weapons. The only think I dislike about tasers is the spelling: TAZOR is much more threatening. __________________ The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

04-27-2006, 08:41 AM	#23 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Not one of you who advocates the tazoring of this woman has given a reason why they couldn't just back away and let her calm down. She's in a wheelchair... it isn't like she was going to chase them down and jump them with her knife. I think it is pretty safe to say, they could have kept clear of her kitchen knives and hammers. I can agree that there are situations where force and tazoring is neccessary... this just doesn't smell right. OK, I missed some responses... (rereading) __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-27-2006, 08:46 AM	#25 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Why not? Their job isn't to process a scene as quickly as possible. It is to serve and protect. I did think about the possibility that she might hurt herself. I figure, if she hurt herself, it would be better than hurting someone else. Again, it all depends on the situation and since no of us were there we are just armchair quarterbacking this one. As it reads, I still say you back away and bring it down a notch or two. It's what they would have done if they didn't have tazers. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-27-2006, 11:52 AM	#31 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I don't. I just keep thinking, she's in a wheelchair. She can't really jump someone. The only reason to do this is: a) she has a hold of someone or someone cornered and is threatening them b) she is going to hurt herself I just don't see an old woman in a wheelchair being as much of a threat as a one who is not in a wheelchair. Heck, you could get a long stick and knock over her wheelchair... it would have probably been safer. Shooting an old person with a Taser is just not the smartest thing to do. Don't get me wrong, I am in no way defending granny's actions here. She was out of line... but it just seems to me that other things could have been done. Again, what would they have done if they didn't have a taser (as many Police departments don't)? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-27-2006, 12:16 PM	#33 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Sorry about the slight. It's not nice to tease the aged. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

04-27-2006, 12:28 PM	#35 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	What was she so pissed about anyway?? There was no better way to solve the situation. For all they knew they'd stun her just enough to disarm her and the situation would be ended. Tazors can be controlled depending on their setup. Some can have settings, some you only old the button for 1, 2 or 3 second. That sort of thing. So For all we know they only set it low. But with the kind of tazor that has prongs, they would have to remove the prongs so they couldn't set it too low and not have it work either. I will be interested to know what was actually the cause of death. Electrical charges should not cause heart failure unless the charge passes through the heart. With a Tazor the prongs conduct the charge from one prong straight to the other and in theory should have no effect on the heart. I hope the cops don't get into any more trouble for this. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

04-27-2006, 12:41 PM	#37 (permalink)
Grasshopper Green ...is a comical chap Location: Where morons reign supreme	Just because you're in a wheelchair doesn't give you the right to act a fool without repercussions. If I read correctly, the police TRIED to talk her into dropping the weapons before they tasered her. As it's already been mentioned...she could have thrown a knife at someone, and the cops would have been flamed for not doing something before she injured someone. The cops were probably just doing what they felt was right at the time...and sadly, the woman paid the ultimate price for her serious lack of judgment. __________________ "They say that patriotism is the last refuge to which a scoundrel clings; steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king" Formerly Medusa

04-27-2006, 01:29 PM	#38 (permalink)
florida0214 Crazy Location: South Florida	Lesson to be learned. Throw knives at a cop and you may not live to joke about it. Stupid people do stupid things and sometimes they get what they deserve. By that I mean getting tasered not dying. The police used the amount of force they assesed to be appropriate. Didn't knw it would kill her. Kind of a sucks to her thing. __________________ "Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

04-27-2006, 10:26 PM	#39 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Jumping back to the figures on page one, 70,000 taser uses and 60-something deaths. One in a thousand isn't a bad figure compared to what the alternative may have been. Bullets cause more deaths than tasers. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

04-27-2006, 11:05 PM	#40 (permalink)
G5_Todd Junkie Location: Reichstag	monday morning quarter backing is lame.... but i hope someone atleast said "hey mamn have a seat we'll be right with you" __________________ "....and when you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." -General Franks