TheIceMan

I just saw a news report on a TV program called NightLine about how Florida required their students to pass the FCAT (a comprehensive exam) in order to graduate. 30,000 (or 40,000) high school students in Florida failed. Another version of the FCAT was given to 3rd graders and 13,000 students failed it. It must be pointed out that 99% of 3rd grade students in a magnet school passed the test.

It was mentioned that students have multiple chances to take the FCAT. Some of the students interviewed complained that they are being tested over things which they "should have been taught", meaning that there is something terribly wrong with the current education system. Wow, big surprise.

Parents, teachers, and students are calling this unfair.

There are several questions/issues here:

1. Should we (Americans) continue to "dumb down" our education system just so students can pass and in essence enter the "real world" not having learned basic reading and arithmetic?

2. Why is only Florida administering this test? Should it be required on a national level. European and Asian countries require this of all their students. In fact, many require that the students pass a comprehensive exam before they are allowed to advance to the next grade level.

3. Finally, now that the spotlight is once again on education, what should be done to correct this national problem called "social progress" that is, to pass a student simply to pass even if the student should not move up to the next grade level.

I know that there are many members in this forum who are Europeans, Asians, Australians, South Americans, etc. That is why I am curious to see the comments from Americans as well as from our friends from around the world.

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juanvaldes

I understand CA is doing similar tests.

While its' a good idea in part it relies on one major problem, it assumes all students are taught the exact same material everywhere. This just does not happen for a large variety of reasons.

oblar

the only part i am going to comment on will be the "dumbing down of courses". I am totally against this. This means that at one point you are teaching at a level acceptable to students, but to give the school a better image or for other reasons they dumb the courses down.

I don't know about others, but I saw this myself during my high school years. Several of my friends knew there was a problem, but most of the student body seemed to like it.

they decided to offer higher level honors courses for "advanced" students, but what this actually did was name the currently advanced class something else.. name the regular course the advanced course, and added an even more remedial class.

to make matters worse, since our school did not have a weighted scale we had a total of 16 people with 4.0's graduating. Out of those 16, I think only 3 of them took any advanced AP courses.. Out of those 3, only 2 of them took more than 1 advanced course.

I am really afraid to see how that school is doing now with the way they continously lowered the bar, so they would have a better overall GPA in the classrooms... I guess the whole idea of teaching the material a little bit more, or actually getting the children to wish to learn is out of the question...

*le sigh*

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ReggErving

This might not be the case, but a friend of mine that lives in Orlando says that there is a large drug problem in Florida, maybe this could be the cause or maybe my friend is full of shit.

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TheIceMan

juanvaldes:
I completely agree with you. Our education system is so intimately tied to socioeconomic status as well. Notice how much better private schools and wealthy school districts are doing than the poor ones. It isn't that the students are that much brighter. It's because of the lack of resources (lower salaries for teachers, not enough books or proper equipments or tools, etc) for the poorer schools.

oblar:
Thank you for your post. Yes, what you said is one of the many examples of what the American education system is doing or not doing to prepare students.

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silverback

I believe they start this type of testing in Texas for the next school year. It will be interesting to see how that turns out.

When that many fail though, it does make me wonder if they will revamp the system.

Jeff

Florida also spends about the lowest amount of money on each student of any of the 50 states. Maybe this will encourage them to get their priorities straight.

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juanvaldes

Even less then us in CA? WOW....poor kids.....

phredgreen

and so... with all of this shocking information, i have to propose a national-level governing board for our schools... no more of this local-level "one school gets all the good shit and the other gets the crap" bullshit. i think it's time the government stopped blowing smoke up our asses and get serious about education. i read so much about how some places' schools are amazing while schools in other places are closing up the year early because of budgeting issues... it's mad, i tell you . we need something serious if we want our youth to be competitive in the global market.

unfortunately, not enough people give a flying fucking shit about our youth, as long as their pocketbooks are fat they're happy.

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sixate

I had to take a series of dumb ass tests to graduate High School too. There were a lot of people who didn't pass all 4 of them. I don't feel sorry for the dumb fucks who didn't pass them because they were easy as hell. I coulda passed the things when I was 5. About 90% of the people who didn't pass were all the people who did drugs and drank. And people say that shit doesn't fuck you up.

JadziaDax

Unfortunately, with lawsuits running ramped, this is a difficult one to tackle. Here's an example of a situation: A girl is 18 years old and a Senior. Her reading level is approximately equivalent to that of a 3rd grader, and her math level is equivalent to that of a 5th grader. She has little to no short term memory. Teachers have recommend that the girl be tested in order to receive special education benefits. The mother refused the tests. Every year a teacher has tried, and every year the mother refused.

Like I said, this girl is 18 and a Senior. This is her last year of high school. She took the State's minimum basic skills test and failed. In our state, we have a "second chance" test that's more difficult than the original test and much more comprehensive. So she's been in the process of taking this test. She's failing it presently. Graduation is 3 weeks away. Her name was removed from the list of graduates, and her mother is threatening lawsuit. We have all tried to help her daughter, but she doesn't see it that way. The mother is the one who has failed this child, not the system.

We were not "dumbing down" anything.
Florida is not the only state administering a minimum basic skills test. Every state has their own version. It is up to the individual State Department of Education (DOE) to develop and administer this test. In our state, different exams are given at different grade levels (3rd, 4th, 8th, and 11th grades).
Was the spotlight ever OFF education? Everyone sits there and constantly wants to blame the educational system for the problems that happen in the classrooms of America. Let's take a look at the parents who don't give a flying fuck about their own children. There are more people who are unfit parents in the United States than there are in other countries. Education is not a priority to an uneducated fool, so why expect them to push their children to be educated?

My Master's thesis dealt with the US moving towards a National Curriculum, but as I've witnessed first hand what is REALLY going on in US classrooms, I doubt this is a solution. It's great that all these people want to point fingers at where the problem is, but these people haven't the foggiest idea what it's actually like to be an educator in today's classrooms.

4thTimeLucky

Jadzia

I agree that so much is down to the parents, but what do you think the answer is?
Do we punish or fine bad parents?
Make parents attend night school?
Make parents do a compulsory week helping in a school just as they have to do jury service?
Make parents pay some sort of bond that is repaid if and when their child graduates?
Threaten to take children away from incompetent parents or send in a social worker?
Make welfare benefirs dependent upon a certain minimum standard of parental support for their child?

These are just ideas off the top of my head. I am pretty much at a loss as to the solution.
What do you think?

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Bill O'Rights

I was waiting for JD to post......I was hoping for a professional viewpoint.

First of all, I am not not criticizing teachers in any way shape or form. I having the highest regard for teachers. I have seen some of these little monsters in my daughters High School, and can only imagine the difficulties you must face every day. Personally, I'd have killed off about half of them. (good thing I'm not a teacher).

Regarding the 18 year old girl in your example...why was she allowed to have progressed so far through the system as to be a senior on a 3rd and 5th grade level? Shouldn't this have been identified long before now? And if it was, why weren't corrective measures put into place at that time? What broke down here?

What are your feelings on the "No Child Left Behind" theory of education? Or is that just a Nebraska thing? I don't know. I have seen entire classrooms stagnating for weeks because one or two of the kids need extra help with (or just don't give a rats ass about) the subject matter.

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BoCo

You got it, dude. I'd like to see the background of those 30,000 kids who weren't able to pass this test. How many were jocks who got by only on their atheletic abilities? How many were stoners or partiers? How many came from broken homes where the one parent they had just didn't give a crap about their own kid's education? Instead of blaming everyone but those responsible like American society always does, how about putting more of the blame on those who just don't care enough to try?

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rockogre

This is one of the saddest threads posted in a while. We all know it's not working but we can't seem to fix it. As long as little Obleo and Weina have parents who think appearance matters more than learning we will keep cranking out unprepared citizens.

At 18 these people get to vote! Think about that for a minute.

You can barely read, advanced math is a mystery, government is just that thing your parents complain about, but MTV will get you out there to vote.

Arts probably got a pretty good handle on how these new citizens minds can be swung to vote in a particular way.

The world gets increasingly complex, choices must be made, a government of the people, by the people requires a minimum level of education for the masses.

How low can that minimum go before we start to suffer as a nation?

This is another thread that points out the vital importance of being a good parent.

(Yes, I love this particular soapbox. Everyone needs to be passionate about something.)

Children are a responsibility, not pets, not friends or buddies, not housekeepers. Not trophies, not for your vicarious second childhood. Not for showing off your wealth or taste.

Their minds are in your hands.

Having a child graduate high school that can't read and do simple math is nothing to be proud of, but I guess it looks good to your peers.

I back Jadzia 110% on the fact that it is not the teachers at fault, but the parents and the administrators that cave in to them that continue to cause these problems.

...Puts soapbox away for another day...

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Tirian

Just a little note....

Where I live in Canada students are given standard exams in grade 3, 6, and 9. These exams are used to measure students progress, and hopefully spot weaknesses in the system early.

Then there are provincial final exams in the following high school core subjects. Social Studies, Applied Math, Pure Math, English, Français, French Language Arts, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Science.

This exam is worth 50% of their final grade in that course.

I think (but have not done the research) that most provinces in Canada have something similar in place.

I am in favor of standardized testing, but of course it must (and is here) be preceded by a fairly standardized curriculum for the jurisdiction.

gibber71

In Ontario,Canada there is new province wide testing of all students regarding what is supposed to be the same curriculum.The teachers hate it because it systematically eliminates the "memorization and regurgitation" techniques which,do nothing to make the student think and learn,but rather provide short term knowledge in order to fullfill high marks,which in the end make the teachers and students look good.

The students dislike the new program because they are inundated with school work rather then being babysat all day and the teachers are complaining because now they have to actually be creative and teach rather than relying on their old notes year after year.This means more work,research,courses and preparation for the teachers. The teachers union is up in arms and to slight the government,dictate that teachers refrain from after school activities.Again the students lose.

I teach privately now because I believe in the art of teaching--that is giving to others for the sake of seeing students grow and learn,to influence and mentor young minds,specifically to those who want to think and learn to become productive intelligent people rather than not.Basically,I'm teach because I want too,not because I have too. I don't know about the U.S but in Canada,from what I've read, the attrition rate of first year university students is about 25%. Of course several factors may be related in that total,but still a large amount of that percentage is to be blamed on students not sufficiently being prepared for post secondary school education.

Fallon

I've gotta agree with what a lot of people here have said. If, at least in my area and I had the money, I would have paid more for my teachers to try and teach us better. But, being a poor citizen, I was never lucky enough to go to a private school where that'd be offered.
If the gov't threw some money into the education system, I believe we'd be in better shape then we are now also. But everyone is to busy making sure they are getting lots of money, and being greedy.
In New Hampshire, prime example, we don't want to impose a Sales Tax to pay for our education system. Don't get me wrong, I don't really like the thought of a Sales Tax which would benifit the Education System, but this is helping kill our (New Hamsphire) schools. My principal at my old high school just got fired because he was getting paid to much. Also the head grounds-keeper got fired trying to get supplies to keep the school in decent shape, and supplied.
Why doesn't Mr. Bush use this new "economic stimulus" package he want's to do, and throw that into the education system. It'd actually go somewhere where it is really needed, and will be used(hopefully wisely).

gov135

Amen. The economics are fucked. Here is an example of how it works:

Why are poor schools poor and rich schools rich? Why do some students get computer labs, the best teachers, up-to-date textbooks, better teacher to student ratios? Why? The economics of schools systems:

Jeanne, single mother of two, works in Highland, for $12.00 an hour. She receives child support, makes extra money when she can, but cannot afford to live in Highland. At the end of the day, she goes back to Lowland, where she resides. Jeanne works hard, and encourages her children to do well in school. Why are her kids schools worse than Highland's? Cause Jeanne pays tax out of her paycheck to Highland. So do all of her coworkers who also can't live in Highland. Lowland hasn't has any serious industry since the Chinese started making steel. The amount of state and local funding is ridicuously lopsided.

It is an economic problem. School funding is very, very backwords. To a certain extent (federally) it is per capita, but not enough. It should be totally per capita. But this, of course, is a pipedream. School funding is political, politicians cater to those who have.

RAMONES!!!

hey i live in florida, but did they say any school names?

i know a few schools that are just stupid

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TheIceMan

Wow, so many good points you guys/gals have raised. Like some have mentioned, this issue is much larger than "who's to blame?" We live in a society that allows children to pass regardless of their abilities.

Bill O'Rights: You asked a great question - "Regarding the 18 year old girl in your example...why was she allowed to have progressed so far through the system as to be a senior on a 3rd and 5th grade level? Shouldn't this have been identified long before now? And if it was, why weren't corrective measures put into place at that time? What broke down here?

"What are your feelings on the "No Child Left Behind" theory of education... I have seen entire classrooms stagnating for weeks because one or two of the kids need extra help with (or just don't give a rats ass about) the subject matter."

This is my point also. Why are students allowed to pass for so long when clearly they have not demonstrated any mastery over the required materials? Naturally, by the time they are in high school and about to graduate it is too late to "correct this."

I grew up in SouthEast Asia where teachers are highly respected. In Vietnam (they followed the French education system) we were required to take and pass a comprehensive exam at the end of every school year. Failure to pass this exam meant that you had to stay back. Let me tell you that many of us did pass.

I think that an end-of-the-year exam should be required for 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th graders.

Let's forget the logistics and politics of this requirement and indulge me for a second. By frequently testing students, we can identify and hold accountable parents, teachers, students, and the school system for the student's failure. IF we had this requirement implemented on a national level, all states would be required the same thing. Furthermore, education funding would be provided to ensure that every school had enough money to adequately compensate quality teachers and provide textbooks and tools necessary for a proper education. We must raise the bar and students will RISE up to meet it.

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cheerios

See, here's hte problem that i have with standardized testing. I think it ENCOURAGES the memorize and regurgitate method of education. I graduated in the top 25 of my highschool class, and, although my math was pounded in in a way that it was actually learned, my english, spanish, history, even some of hte science, were all rote memorization. And now that there's the Star tests (the standardized testing here in Cali), I'm seeing it move even MORE towards teaching to the test. Why can't advanced classes do more... interesting? things? as a freshman in highschool, my younger sister is STILL going over basic grammar! and ya know what, she is still having trouble with it!

I dunno what the solution is, but I don't think all this standardized testing is it. Yes, funding needs balanced. Yes, we need to pay teachers more! there aren't enough, and those that there are, aren't getting enough for the tons of work they put into it. Yes parents need to get more involved. Six and BoCo were saying "it's just the jocks, the partiers, the druggies, and the kids w/ dysfunctional families" irony is, that's every damn child I have ever seen enter a classroom. That is reality. It's not that children who party do worse in school, I've seen plenty who did fine. it's not those with 2 parent families do better, I've seen plenty of them flunk. There has to be something else there.

gov135

Tests are standard. Educational opportunities are not. This is an inherent weakness of "standardized" tests. I love what you say here about education funding. But the proposals on the table now punish schools that cannot pass a certain amount of students BY TAKING AWAY federal money (grant opportunities, paying for vouchers, etc.) This is pure idiocy - the schools that cannot pass the exams are often those that need the funding the most. I'm not sure what you are suggesting for funding here, iceman, but if it is across-the-board per capita for federal, state, and local taxes, then this is a good idea. Good luck, though.

Finally, iceman, you seem to be very interested in the testing of students. Remember, educational experience is broader than what suits in Washington can come up with. Don't think that educational professionals can't "teach to the test." This is a potentially bad thing, the thought process being, "My pupils will pass this test this year. I've seen it for X number of years, I know how to teach to it, and they will pass." What about other things not on the test? Social issues, politics, discussions about current events, right-brained activities, local history, etc? These concepts and many more are being pushed aside as we push children to pass a test.

gov135

Wow. I wrote my post as cheerios wrote hers. And now I feel silly for writing mine. I agree completely with her.

seretogis

This has to be a joke.

Minnesota recently employed a similar testing system, and my graduating class was the first to be held responsible for passing it. We completed the test in every grade since 6th, and the vast majority of my class passed it in 6th grade. For someone (who is of able mind) to not pass it in 12th grade is just inexcusable and should not graduate.

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Frowning Budah

There are several problems with this kind of testing.
1. All that will happen is that teachers will start teaching the test. Students won't know anything more than the answers on the test.
2. Some honor students are also failing to pass the test, for what ever reason .
3. So you now have 30,000 additional high school students next year. How is that going to help the already over taxed education facilities?

I agree the education system needs a major over haul, but simply testing the students isn't the answer.

JadziaDax

If you can prove it to be neglect or endangering the welfare of a minor child, then there are all sorts of things that can be done. We've brought parents up on charges just for their child missing more than 9 days of school in a row. Anything is possible, but it doesn't work. There just seems to be this element of society that will forever be doomed unless we can educate it (vicious circle).

What broke down is that the mother refused to let the system help her daughter. Her daughter had been brought up for review by the child study team on numerous occasions, and every time the mother refused the assistance. Her mother was in denial. So, yes, it was identified long before now, and corrective measures could not be put into place without the parent's consent. The law can suck sometimes.
"No Child Left Behind" is a national program started by the Bush administration, not a state by state issue. I have seen good and bad come from this so far. Good is that poorer school districts (like mine) are receiving the assistance they need to be able to compete with other school districts. They are getting the funding for technology, text books, new facilities that they normally would not be able to afford. Bad is that we are loosing some great people and much needed departments because the money has to come from somewhere. Certain programs had to cease so the money could be reallocated.

But back to the topic at hand.

These standardized tests are used all over the country to determine whether or not students are capable of the basic skills. They recently rewrote the state test in my state, and I was a bit confused. When did it become necessary for anyone to have a working knowledge of right triangle trigonometry as a basic skill? How many people can survive not knowing how to find the measure of an angle if its csc = 1.071145? (Not trying to make an excuse)

But why is this news all of a sudden? How many people failed this same test last year? If the number was much lower, what difference did a year make? Is it a new exam? Were these children part of some horrible experiment? How many students passed? I'd actually like percentages rather than raw numbers. That 30,000 that failed could be less than 5% of the total number of graduating seniors. The numbers are always misleading.

frozenstellar

whoa.. 30,000? thats freakin insane. thats about how many students sit the end of year english (english is compulsary) exam in my STATE. now a number of them will fail, but a very low percentage.

maybe australia has a killer education system compared to the US? maybe US students are dumb?

RAMONES!!!

nope, there are a lot of dumb people in florida

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madsenj37

I personally like how France does it. You must pass a test to pass high school. You must pass a test to get into college or go to trade school. If you do not make it onto college, you try for trade school, if that fails, you work retail.

We should not lower our standards in education for kids to pass, we should restructure the education system and perhaps have federal standards so that kids meet the standards.

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guthmund

Dumbing down the curriculum only dumbs down the students.

If you perpetuate ignorance and low standards you're going to get ignorant students with low standards. Seems like an easy concept to understand, so why do we still have masses of kids failing tests?

I don't know. Nobody else seems to, either. If there is a magic word to fix the education system, no one seems to know them or their not talking.

My high school English teacher told me that she didn't teach English in her classroom; she taught students how to fill out bubbles on standardized tests.

We have measurements to determine if students pass on to the next level of their education, we call them grades.

More standardized testing doesn't seem to be the answer, but we keep plodding down that same road with our no. 2 pencils.

It seems that the schools have tried to shift the power and responsibility to the parents and have found the parents lacking. Why should you need parental approval to place the 18 year old girl into remedial education classes? Why has the power in this situation shifted from the school, who knows the limitations of the student, to the parent, who obviously refuses to acknowledge it? When did education stop being a privilege and become a God given right? I don't like to waste my tax dollars supporting lazy ass students who get by because schools are too tired to deal with them. I pay my taxes to support schools that teach, not free day care for lazy ass parents with problem children. It seems that parents want schools to educate their children and show them way to a better life, but they "sure as hell ain't paying no more taxes for it." The parents want schools to accept the responsibility of teaching their children right from wrong, but be damned if they let the school have any authoritative power to discipline them.

Standardized curriculum doesn't seem to be the answer either. It seems that this would spawn an even bigger epidemic of memorization and regurgitation. Not only that, but even with a standardized curriculum you would still have the problem of teachers emphasizing particular pieces of it as they see fit.

One last note. These tests aren't hard. I've taken more than my fair share of bubble tests and they prove nothing. On my latest standardized testing spree, off all the students nationally who took the same test, I scored better than 85% of them in mathematics. I would consider that an accomplishment except my grades in mathematics (D's across the boards) do not reflect that. Of the 45 questions, I correctly answered 37. This only tells me that I take bubble tests exceptionally well or the test was exceptionally easy. I remember taking this test quite well and it's certainly the former and not the latter.

(edited: because I'm long winded )

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seretogis

This isn't a difficult test, guys. It is the minimum that you have to have absorbed throughout your school "career". If you can't read, have no vocabulary, cannot master simple algebra or determine the length of the hypotenuse of a triangle, you should not get a diploma. I don't understand the opposition to standardized testing -- what other option is there?

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snowace56

In CA we started that policy like Florida. Starting next year it will begin to fail students. The test contains algebra and basic reading. If you can't pass that test, you don't deserve to graduate. You need to go back to the first grade and learn how to read. Keep in mind, there are alot of cubans that live in FL. and that is proably why there is such a high number, because they can't read english. I know that is the case with CA, we have a lot of migrant farm workers, whos kids can't read/speak english. But honestly, if you live in America you should be able to speak/read english. It just makes society as a whole look stupid.

krwlz

Don't know if anyone said this yet, but here in NY we have regents tests all the time...Kinda similar

Tom Thumb

Here in Ontario we recently introduced a standardized "literacy test." I was among the first year of students to write that test, and I can vouch for the questions being painfully easy (e.g. a story says there are two people in the front of the canoe and four in the back, and a comprehension questions asks how many people were in the canoe). The only reason there was an initially high fail rate reported was because we were automatically failed if we "defaced" our papers or used profanity, which most of us did. No, not because we weren't articulate enough to avoid it, but because we were frustrated with the new curriculum and the amazingly poor initialization of it. But I'll not rant about that.

My point is that standardized tests are simple to anyone with a basic education, and students shouldn't be allowed to graduate without that. That 30,000 students can't find China on a map or the third side of a triangle is unfortunate, but we can't pretend these people will be ready for any careers other than fast food, retail, and politics.

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darksparkles

washington's going to be doing that with the wasl starting with the class of 2008... currently i believe you have to at least take the wasl to graduate, though.

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Zotz

No wonder they can't count votes correctly there......

seretogis

A funny related story is that some 16 year old girl was trying to organize a petition in FL to lower the voting age to 16 ...

link: http://www.voteat16.com/

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charlesesl

Here s are rough generalization for your people(americans).

Your people has put too much inphasize on individuals that the well being of the group is sarcrificed.

Example:
The leave no man behind policy in wars
and this

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seretogis

This post makes no sense. The reason that "no man is left behind" is because of the well-being of the group. I'm assuming that English isn't your first language, and that you meant something else?

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seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames