Jinn

The creepiest part is reading the blog; it sounds like some run-of-the-mill angsty American man.. not a corpse fucking skin eating crazed cannibal.

On the death penalty; I'd support it. I'd also support keeping him alive so that pyschologists and psyciatrists can do research on him to help determine what CAUSED the mental illness and what it entails. In my mind it's a better option to learn from him and hopefully avoid it happening AGAIN then to just flat out kill him..

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

I'm not a PhD student, but I do know that there is no such thing as 'incurable'.

He is mentally ill; he didn't even have a first chance. He was born into a situation where some combination of biological and enviornmental factors created an individual who cannot function in society. I'll say it again: he didn't even have a first chance, let alone a second chance.

His father molseted him, or he was born with problems in his brain chemistry, or (insert horrible situation that can create a man who does things like this)....let's kill him!! That'll teach him!

Daniel_

In THIS case it seems clear cut. But you can't make laws for ALL cases simply to satisfy the easy cases.

My moral dilemma is that I can see that is someone committed some brutal horrific crime that the world might well be a better place if they were dead, and that committing such a crime from your own free will might earn this ultimate sanction.

HOWEVER....

The human justice system is capable of error. It is capable of innocent mistakes, and amenable to corruption and evidence tampering.

Therefore I am left feeling that whatever my thoughts on a totally clear-cut case of an "evil" man who does a despicable thing, I have to remain against any sanction that is capable of being corrupted by human failing and collusion.

I realise that this will have certain people call me a silly liberal, but at least I can be comfortable that nobody will ever be able to put innocent blood on my hands.

__________________

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And deep beneath the rolling waves,
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rockogre

I've been bitten for my conservative views before on the tfp, and willtravel may rip me a new one and that's ok, but sometimes you just have to cull the herd. I agree that this man may be a very sick puppy, but for for those of us that live here, this is just an hour or so away from me, things that attack our children need to be put down. raeanna74 has a good point. I guess it is a punishment, but it also gets a deadly viper from out of our midst.

As we see more and more disturbed members of our society manifest this kind of disregard for life do we just continue to warehouse them? I know I'm cold but we can only live with so much of this behavior. Attack me if you please, I don't intend to respond. When I was younger I shared the liberal view. The older I get and the more I see I lean toward defending the young, helpless, and defensless.

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

The_Jazz

The Supreme Court is hearing arguements today in a case that straddles this issue.

Apparently a younger guy (17) in Arizona went off the deep end, and his parents tried to get him committed but couldn't because he wasn't deemed a threat to himself or others. He was convinced that his family were all aliens (the 3rd Encounter kind, not the illegal immigrant kind). A few months later he stole the family truck and drove it around and around one block with loud music blaring. Someone called the cops, and one officer responded. There was a gunfight and the officer was killed. There's no debate as to who did it, but the guy was pretty clearly not all there.

The court found him guilty, but the defense wanted him found guilty but insane so he could get the help he needed. Unfortunately, the court said that he may have been insane immediately before and immediately after killing the officer but not doing since he knew he was doing wrong because he later ran from the cops.

Here's the story: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060419/...tus_insanity_2

Personally, I think that this particular set of circumstances is right on that fine line.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

stevo

There's always an excuse. For whomever for whatever crime. So, will, where do you draw the line? When do you advocate someone take responsibility for their actions?

If some hero vigilante would just blow this guys head off next time he makes any kind of appearance we'd save a lot of time, trouble, money, and distress of the family.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

JustJess

I concede that we could learn from him. But frankly, we can learn plenty from the morphology of his brain.

If it's a chemical imbalance, we will most likely not be able to fix it permanently and thus, get rid of him. I am a proponent of ridding the world of danger. I might feel slightly differently if the penitentiary system were not glutted with stupid shit like drug possession. But we can't and shouldn't afford to house someone who will never be able to be a contributing member of society. (Can you imagine the lawsuit if they parolled him, he was "cured", and he killed someone else? So he'll never be parolled, never be rehabilitated, and thus is a waste.)

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

Willravel

I do understand where everyone is coming from. Yes, I'd probably feel safer letting my daughter walk to school someday if we put this man to death. The problem is that my feeling of comfort in thinking aobut removing this man from life isn't founded in logic, it's founded in an emotional response. I KNOW that if he were put into a secure asylum he would not pose any realistic threat to anyone. If he poses no threat, the what is the function of killing him? To punish him? As a father, all I can say on that is the reason one punishes is to teach a lesson. You can't learn a lesson if you're dead (unless you believe in reincarnation). Who knows, having this man in an asylum for the rest of his life could be slow torture.

It's easy to call this man a viper, as he did prey on a defenceless little girl in an evil way, but let's not forget that he was once a little boy. The man is still human. He is just not well.

Oh, and it's Willravel.
Putting someone in an asylum isn't necessarily warehousing them. It is putting them in an environment where learned individuals can study them and attempt to treat them. Imagine a prison meets a laboratory meets a hospital.

Just fyi, I don't want to attack anyone. I'm only here to discuss.
When they are not clearly insane, then they can take 100% responsibility for their actions. This man is clearly insane, so he cannot be heald totally responsible for his actions.

And when I deal with the death penalty, I WILL always have an excuse. Logic.
And that vigilante, being of sound mind, would be convicted of premeditated murder and probably get the death penalty.

Than's quite a solution.

Impetuous1

This really bothers me. Yes, I agree that most people would not consider him sane since he did something most sane people would never think of doing. However, I guess you then have to ask what is sane? I may be wrong, but don't most people have a few classifiable psychological conditions that are considered minor? Also, how do you know he has an unfortunate past? Then, I also have to ask; if someone has an unfortunate past, does that then give them a free pass to commit atrocities? I don't think so. He knew right from wrong. He went 26 years without commiting any serious crimes. He did not stand out. IMO that means that he should be able to take responsibility for his own actions. I'll have to say I'm in the camp that thinks he deserves to be punished. I think he deserves death.

Willravel

What is sane? Well I am using insane in a general sense to mean that he has extreemly serious antisocial personality disorder, narcissism, OCD, dissasociative disorder...etc.; someone who beacause of their disorder(s) is a danger to themselves or people around them and who require treatment from professionals.

Does someone have a free pass to kill if they have had biological or environmental factors that caused them to have disoders? That has to be a case by case basis. Luckely, we have a case by case judicial system, so it's fair to judge them as such. I am not suggesting to give this man a free pass. I am only suggesting that killing him is wrong. Only the sith deal in absolutes.

It's alright to think he should be punished without wanting to KILL him, just so you know.

rockogre

Sorry about the name thing willravel. And I didn't mean to imply that you were a rabid attacker. I just figure that a lot of folks probably won't agree with me.

I worry most about folks like this being judged as "sane" later in life, then we find out that they are not after it is too late.

Just my old $0.02

__________________
Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
Jesus Christ and the American G. I.
One died for your soul, the other for your freedom

The_Jazz

The problem is that "sane" is a legal definition, not a medical one. Doctors can't and don't catagorize people as sane or insane. It's left up to the courts to decide.

In my opinion, there are clearcut cases where someone committed an act under duress of their own making, i.e. John Hinkley, Jr. shooting Reagan to impress Jodie Foster. There's a homeless guy here in Chicago who was profiled in a series of stories in the Tribune because he went around punching random women in the face when he was off his medication because he thought they were attacking him with their minds. Clearly both of these individuals have issues that force them into behaviors that they wouldn't otherwise exhibit with the intervention of drugs, therapy or both.

From personal experience, I know that there are some people who can recover from debilitating mental illnesses and become productive members of society. Crimes committed by the truely mentally ill should not be punished so much as treated aggressively, IMO, and treatment/monitoring should be maintained longterm. The homeless guy that I mentioned doesn't need to go to jail where he's only going to be sicker when he's released and maybe kills someone. He needs to be treated.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cynthetiq

We live in the same world.

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dksuddeth

They will treat this guy just like they did jeffrey dahmer, and they should. put him behind bars. He won't last out the year.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

The_Jazz

I can't really disagree in this particular case. This guy planned the whole thing, knew it was wrong and did it anyway. However, Dahmer was sentenced to a psychiatric facility with treatment, not to prison. Granted, he was in with other mentally ill criminals, but the point was that he was not in prison. Did you realize that when you posted?

Just to clarify my position (and because I don't want to have to look at any more grocery store claims about old ladies slipping on grapes and getting $100,000 for it), people that are clearly NOT in touch with reality when they commit a crime (hearing voices, think they're being persecuted by strangers, think someone's the anti-christ, afraid that people are going to take their guns - just kidding about that one dksuddeth ) should be treated differently than common criminals.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Impetuous1

The sith agrees with The_Jazz. BTW willravel, I was completely aware that "It's alright to think he should be punished without wanting to KILL him". Just so you know. I was merely stating that in my personal opinion that the punishment that he deserves is the death penalty. Perhaps it was poorly stated in my sentence construction.

dksuddeth

No, I did not realize that. Thank you for the info.

hmmm, someone's at my door. be right back.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

raeanna74

I think this is a greater problem than the death penalty. Those that are mentally disturbed are left to roam and harrass their families at times simply because they are not YET a danger. I've heard other stories like this where someone was ignored because they had not harmed anyone yet. But I don't doubt that the family couldn't have told you that his behavior was frightening. Someone who is unstable like this should be committed so that their problem could be dealt with. If they are 'curable' and able to return to a normal life then there's no reason why they can't be released. At least this could prevent crimes like this loopy Arizona fellow. Not that it would have helped the little girl as far as we know but it would have helped the cop

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My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Lasereth

I knew when I read the article that there would be some people defending this guy on insanity or mentally disabledness. Give me a fucking break. All politics and toned down opinions aside, anyone that can cut up a little girl, rape her, cut her fucking head off, and then brag about it deserves to die. I don't care if you have a little something wrong in the head. I don't care if you can go get some therapy and then be mellow for the rest of your life. If you do something like that, you don't deserve to live. You KILLED a girl, therefore you're giving up your own right to live. She did nothing to warrant her own death and the killer did. I hope something extremely horrific, disgusting, and truly scarring happens to this guy, something that would make most people vomit in shock. What a fucked up human being.

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Willravel

I knew when I read this artucle that there would be some people wanting to kill this obviously mentally ill person. Give me a fucking break. All politics and vigiliantism aside, anyone who clearly has substantial mental problems to the point that he would kidnap, kill, rape, beat, and cut up a little girl clearly needs help. I don't care if you can simply brush the worth of a man's life aside to settle some misguided sense of vengence, he deserves to live. He is insane, and clearly isn't responsible for his own actions. I hope something inspiring, wonderful, amazing and joyful happens in the life of each and every person who posted to kill this guy, so that maybe we can try to have perspective and respect for the value of life. This is a man who clearly needs help.

Redjake

Therapy? Help? No way. This guy deserves to have the same thing done to him. Is it really worth spending the time and effort on someone to "treat" them when they may just "snap" again and kill another little girl like this? Nope. Waste the motherfucker. Cut his dick off and make him eat it.

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Lasereth

I appreciate the cleverness, but I just don't get how anyone can see this with the mental disability view. Someone in the thread has already mentioned when we stopped punishing killers and started giving them free doctor visits. When will killers pay for what they did? Is it OK to kill in the US as long as you weren't entirely sane when you did it? Where is the line between a killer who deserves punishment and a killer who deserves to be treated as "mental victim?"

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Willravel

I suspect that's for medical professionals to decide. I may not have my doctorate in psych yet, but I can guess as to the mental state of the horrible man who committed this crime. He's nuts. I don't mean like cheating husband kills cheating wife kind of nuts, I mean praying to a bedpost and eating concrete because your deoderant told you to do it nuts. What this man did could not be done by a sane man.

It's never okay to kill, and I am not suggesting that this man ever be free again, but to kill an insane individual for doing something insane doesn't makes sense to me. Punish him, of course. Kill him? No way.

I am fine with the 'agree to disagree' thing in this case. It's not like we're on the jury. If we were, then we'd have to come to some sort of an agreement.

Da Munk

This case is chilling and the man an absolute monster, but killing him would be a waste. His death does nothing but satiate our bloodlust, but treating him could actually contribute valuable knowledge that could prevent future cases like this. I don't think this man should be coddled and I don't think he should ever be freed, but I would hate to see us lose out on the potential to learn something of great importance just to fufill our need for vengeance.

Jinn

Just so you don't feel like the trumpeteer against Caeser's army (yes I just made that metaphor up), Will.. I agree.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

kentucky_lady

[B]this is a sickening crime against humanity, it still shocks me to hear something like this even with all the crime in the world, lets all keep her father and family in our prayers............they will need them.

Willravel

I appreciate it. And I like that metephor.

Fire

He may be a mental case, but I feel that he is an abomination, and that we should kill him in a quick and efficient way- .22 through the eye would work.... in any event, He is never going to be better, and I do not feel any obligation to be "Better" or "Progressive" and try to make him better.... and for the record, should I or any of my loved ones do something this heinous, then put me down- Should a loved one do such a thing, then I would gladly put them down.....
This man is a FAILURE- and should have no more time or resources wasted on him...

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Willravel

What if an 8 year old kid shot a man? Would you put a .22 to his head an pull the trigger? What if a man with severe down syndrome hit a man until he died? Maybe we should just give you a gun and let you go wild.
Is this your professional opinion? Or are you assuming that your opinion based on reading one article tells you so much about this mans condition that you are qualified to make such a statement?

What if you're wrong? What if we kill a good man who is stuck in a shell of mentall illness?

analog

As long as he never sees the rest of humanity again, I don't care if he goes to prison or a psych facility. But he should never, ever be allowed back into society. Whether we kill him, or nature runs its course in due time, he needs to die in a facility. If you want to prod him and study his mind until he finally passes, so be it. Use the knowledge you gain to treat those who aren't totally bat-shit-crazy, and can be saved.

This is not a person. It's a bag of useless meat with a fucked up brain. There's no bringing a person into "functioning member of society" status after THIS. This was not random, it was not reactionary, it was not opportunistic- meaning he didn't just suddenly bludgeon someone, he didn't get "scared" or "confused" and act out violently, and he didn't have a momentary lapse of "oh there's a girl, I think i'll kill her and rape her corpse". It was planned out, detailed, prepared for, and executed in a precise fashion. The body was maintained post-mortum for the purpose of further use, in a receptacle designed to prevent odor or other indications of a decomposing body from being discovered.

I don't care how fucked up a person's brain is- he indicates the knowledge of right from wrong by storing the body to prevent detection, he lied to police to cover his actions at the checkpoint, and when the police arrived and got to the tub, he admitted to his crime...

It's method, though there's madness in it. Regardless of motivation- whether it's neurological imbalance, or actual desire- he willfully carried out these acts. There is no place in any society for a person such as this.

itch vaccine

ARGH

It sucks to live on the other side of the world from you guys

I sleep and wake up, and there's so many new posts, they're so hard to keep track.
Time zones suck. The earth has to spin faster

---after reading, had this to say---

Fine, I feel now that we should lock him up, have the experts study what is wrong, what causes it, and what not. It *would* be *better* than killing him.

But we shall never let him walk among his fellow men, for he is a danger, regardless if he should be sane in the future or not.

__________________
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When you sit on a hot stove for two minutes, it seems like two hours.
That's relativity."
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KnifeMissile

You know, capital trials aren't exactly cheap, either. I'm told that they're usually more expensive than a life sentence, although this guy's trial may be a slam dunk. Still, his execution won't be the great money saver you are hoping it will be...

KnifeMissile

You mean, like the two kids who took a 2 year old, beat him up, poured paint in his eyes, then tied him onto train tracks and watched him get cut in half while he was still alive? They were released on their 18th (it might have been 16, I don't quite remember) and are, as far as I know, living ordinary lives right now without fear of assassins...
Mind you, they were put under a witness protection program when they were released, but still...

KnifeMissile

But really, what is the value of a penalty? Of punishment? I mean, lets not beat around the bush, here. You're talking about death as revenge but, when you think about it, how does that benefit society? What do we gain out of his death? What would you gain?

But until these people pose an actual danger, what you're talking about is commiting them because... you don't like them. Really, insanity is like pedaphilia in that neither of them is illegal. There are plenty of insane people out there who have hurt no one. Should we lock you up before you hurt someone? I assume you haven't hurt anyone, yet...

aKula

Because I couldn't stomach executing someone. Whenever I see the facilities they use I just see how awful the whole thing is. That, together with other reasons (possibility of mistakes etc) others have posted, is the reason I'm againts the death penalty. Now maybe this guy is a special case, a "monster", but I don't see the need for executing such special cases instead of life time imprisonment.

Edit: I just saw your post above, but I think my points are still valid.

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raeanna74

I'm not saying lock them up in jail or anything like that. I'm saying to make sure these people face their inner demons. Some people who are truely insane are not going to cooperate with therapy but they need it all the more because they won't go to a counselor. They need to be forced to face reality before they become a real danger. IF you commit them then you give the Dr's to really analyse if they are a true threat or just a little harmlessly loony.


As for death being a penalty. I don't see it as a way of correction. That's different. I see this as a deterrant. If a person knows that killing another person will result in their own death as a penalty then the likelyhood that they will go through with murder might be lower. The fact that you are eliminating a threat to society is a side benefit. Prison is not near enough deterrant for some people.

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"Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama
My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

Willravel

I don't think you can deter people from being crazy.

lindalove

Looking at some of the killer's archived entries gives you a pretty good insight into how messed up he is:

*shudder*

Ustwo

Justjess I think you won the thread

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JustJess

That's exactly why I think the death penalty does have a place in our penal system.

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.