Toronto to get city-wide Hot Spot - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Charlatan · 03-07-2006, 11:49 AM

Toronto Hydro is about to offer a city-wide wi-fi service.

I, for one, think this is a great idea. I look forward to cancelling my land line service when I can get city-wide free cellphone coverage though IP.

I also look forward to surfing from the park.

Do any of you have this available in your cities? What do you think of something like this in general?

Quote:

T.O. to become a giant hotspot
Toronto Hydro plans city-wide WiFi Web access available almost anywhere
Mar. 7, 2006. 05:40 AM
PATRICK EVANS
BUSINESS REPORTER

When a city is one big wireless hot spot, what's life like?

Today Toronto Hydro Corp. is expected to announce plans to bring "municipal Wireless-Fidelity" (WiFi for short) to Toronto. It's a mesh of radio signals that can blanket an entire city, giving subscribers wireless Internet access virtually anywhere.

Toronto Hydro was keeping mum on the project details in advance of today's news conference. But the broader dream of a wireless city looks something like this:

WiFi receiving and transmitting units will be mounted on items of urban furniture, like street lamps or pay phones. They'll pick up radio waves carrying the Internet and pass them on from street lamp to street lamp. The waves will course up and down every street in the city, through parks, schoolyards, markets and pool halls. Subscribers will surf the Internet on a park bench or in a shopping mall.

But there's debate on how much of the the dream will actually be realized.

Professor Ben Liang, who researches wireless technologies as part of the University of Toronto's electrical and computer engineering department, said it's unlikely Toronto Hydro will manage to cover every last inch of the city.

"Most likely they are talking about public places. If it's the basement of a building and it's private property, I doubt they would cover that."

Liang said the project will dramatically increase the number of Internet signals flying through the air, but the signals themselves won't be any stronger than usual. "The signals travel through people. But they're harder to get through concrete and metal."

That means an apartment on the 20th floor of a building could be out of luck, Liang said. Even that idyllic vision of Internet surfing on a park bench could be a problem if it's a park full of trees. "A tree will block the signal somewhat."

Liang said the wireless industry won't use stronger signals because it's not yet known if they could cause health problems.

But what about an abundance of weaker signals? It remains to be seen if anyone in the city would be spooked by the increase in regular-strength signals the project would unleash.

They wouldn't be the first to question the safety of WiFi transmissions. Fred Gilbert, president of Lakehead University in Thunder Bay, recently banned WiFi networks from parts of the campus, saying it's still not known if regular exposure to wireless signals can have long-term health consequences.

Still, health concerns don't appear to be slowing down the rise of municipal WiFi in North America. More than 200 cities are gearing up for total WiFi coverage. These projects are in various stages of development, but Fredericton, N.B., appears to be in the lead.

It identified the need to develop community wireless connectivity in 1999, and that led to the Fred eZone, which today covers virtually the entire downtown core with free wireless service.

South of the border in Philadelphia, a program is almost ready to launch. By late 2006 or early 2007, the 350 square kilometres that encompass the city and its surroundings could be one giant wireless hot spot.

Wireless Philadelphia is a non-profit company working on the project to ensure that as Internet access expands across Philadelphia, low-income citizens will get expanding opportunities to use it. The City of Toronto and Toronto Hydro have indicated they will pursue similar initiatives here.

Derek Pew, acting CEO at Wireless Philadelphia, said the municipal WiFi will be offered to low-income users for about $10 (U.S.) a month (with market-value subscriptions costing about $20 monthly).

Along with offering the Internet everywhere and helping low-income people spend more time online, the project in Philadelphia is expected to pump up tourism and streamline government.

In The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, a science-fiction series written by Douglas Adams, characters travel the universe using a handheld device with a viewscreen that gives them information about the planets they visit.

As in space, so in Philadelphia. Pew said tourists arriving in the city might soon get handheld devices — viewscreens and all — that will help them see the sights. "As you wander around Philadelphia, you'll run into a portal or a website that gives you information on when things are open, tours.... The days of people with maps in their hands stopping somebody on the street for directions, those will be gone."

For government, the expanded Internet access could mean more people getting information in cyberspace, freeing up jammed phone lines, Pew said.

Government could also use the system to monitor parking meters and other automated systems, such as hydro meters in homes.

The technology is sure to heat up the competition among wireless carriers — some of which have locked subscribers into multi-year contracts. What happens, then, to someone with a contract who wants to try municipal WiFi?

"Unless the carrier decides they want to let a person move on to the Toronto network, then I guess he has his contract to honour," Pew said.

But contracts run out, he said, and the service won't launch in Toronto any time soon.

"By the time they get it built, that customer will be close to the end of his contract. It takes more than a year to construct one of these networks, and that's after you've already agreed to it. From start to finish, you're looking at an almost two- to three-year process."

amonkie · 03-07-2006, 07:06 PM

Tempe, home of Arizona State, began implementation of a similiar plan in 2005 -

http://www.tempe.gov/business/wifi/

Quote:

On April 21, 2005 the Tempe City Council voted to award a 5-year contract for city-wide wireless broadband services to MobilePro Corporation out of Bethesda, MD (http://www.mobileprocorp.com). The award is contingent upon the Council approval of the final lease agreement.

MobilePro has partnered with StrixSystems (http://www.strixsystems.com) and Limelight Networks (http://www.limelightnetworks.com) to build and support the wireless network.

The wireless network will cover all of Tempe and offer services to residents and visitors on an annual, monthly, daily and hourly basis. The network will allow access to multiple Internet service providers (ISP), and is robust enough to provide telephone service via Voice-over-IP (VOIP).

The network will be in an “always on” state. Any Wi-Fi enabled device can access the network “landing page” free of charge. Access to City of Tempe services (http://www.tempe.gov) and ASU services (http://www.asu.edu) will also be available from the landing page free of charge. This free access is being offered as part of the agreement with MobilePro and the City.

There will be a zone in the merchant district of downtown Tempe that offers free Internet access on a limited basis. Tempe and ASU encourage shoppers and students to enjoy the downtown area and lakeside venues while surfing the net.

The agreement between the City of Tempe and MobilePro allows for the creation of a municipal network deployed on the same infrastructure as the Public network. This second, "virtual" network will be used by municipal workers to enhance their ability to provide services in the community. Police, Fire, Water, Traffic and Development Services personnel will utilize the network to leverage mobile technology that will make the City more efficient and safer for its residents. Every Police officer, patrol car and Fire truck on the street can be equipped with a laptop computer that is Wi-Fi enabled giving them the ability to access information that has never before been available in the field due to limited bandwidth.

In Tempe, this was not a city subsidized project - since I was not a resident of Tempe I was not able to speak for the breadth of coverage, but around our campus ALL of the downtown hot spots/cafes/bars/bookstores all had wi fi coverage, and if you had the laptop, it was so easy to just go out and enjoy the environment and work at the same time. I had not heard any complaints from anyone about the service being unreliable or spotty.

highthief · 03-08-2006, 09:55 AM

I bet Rogers and Bell ain't too happy!

Charlatan · 03-08-2006, 10:01 AM

I should think not. But so what? Nothing like a little competition to keep the various monopolies on their toes...

Rodney · 03-08-2006, 10:20 AM

Nah, see, it's Toronto, therefore it's socialist and not good for true Amurricuns. They should just keep paying high rates to the telecoms, as is their patriotic duty.

Plaid13 · 03-08-2006, 11:17 AM

i wonder just how much bandwidth something like that would have and what if anything they would do to deal with piracy and stuff like that.

Supple Cow · 03-08-2006, 11:39 AM

Well, NYC isn't one big hot spot yet, but we do have public wi-fi in some places. I like the idea of having internet access outdoors. When the weather's nice, I like to move as much of my life outdoors as possible so I've been known to bring my laptop to Bryant Park. My school also has it in the lawn in middle of the main campus so the rest of the neighboring community can come and use it, too.

I look forward to seeing a whole city go wireless this way, if only to see what happens. Aside from the piracy issue Plaid13 has brought up, I just wonder about the cost and what that will mean in taxes... I bet this topic is going to end up in Politics sooner or later.

Charlatan · 03-08-2006, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supple Cow

I just wonder about the cost and what that will mean in taxes... I bet this topic is going to end up in Politics sooner or later.

I was thinking that might be the case...

In the end, Toronto Hydro already has extensive telephony holdings (mostly backbone stuff). Additionally, they own all the utility poles in the city (that's what makes this possible for so little money, otherwise they'd have to rent space from others like cellular companies do).

The service will not likely be free but I imagine it will be subsidized somewhat by the City of Toronto (it isn't clear at this point that it will be).

BadNick · 03-08-2006, 12:43 PM

Go Toronto! Is Toronto Hydro a government run enterprise or a private business? I'll read more in case it's already there.
Though Toronto has really changed a lot and become a lot more diversified since I first spent my Summers there starting about 50yrs ago, I still really like Toronto, even the socialists usually seem friendly

In my home town, after on-again-off-again political wrangling during the last year or so, I'm pretty sure Philadelphia recently approved a plan to go city-wide WiFi for "no charge" http://www.phila.gov/wireless/briefing.html

Hope this isn't really off-topic, but it reminds me of that concept where all the little WiFi'ers around the country would act like transmission nodes and make the whole U.S. of A one big spider web of interconnected WiFi family

Is that real?

Sweetpea · 03-08-2006, 12:50 PM

That is a fantastic Idea!!!!!

/me moves to Toronto

sweetpea

Tamerlain · 03-08-2006, 12:59 PM

On the whole, I think this is a great idea. But...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Supple Cow

I just wonder about the cost and what that will mean in taxes... I bet this topic is going to end up in Politics sooner or later.

I'm especially interested in this part, since Toronto has been in financial disarray for quite a few years now. I don't think tax payers are going to be happy seeing their money go to something like this when there are so many problems that need to be solved in Toronto right now.

-Tamerlain

fresnelly · 03-08-2006, 01:44 PM

I suppose If they do this prudently and reliably, it could be lucrative for the utility. I wonder where the revenue will go. It would be great if it helped subsidize electricity rates or support grid maintenance, rather than get swallowed up in Hydro's infamous bureaucracy.

Daniel_ · 03-08-2006, 02:27 PM

There's just this minute been a story on the BBC TV evening news talking about this happening in London (where it will cost) and Bristol (where it will be free).

Ustwo · 03-08-2006, 02:46 PM

TANSTAAFL.

Ustwo · 03-10-2006, 11:12 PM

A good friend of mine works for AT&T/SBC.

The ironic thing is apparently many cities in the US are wired this way and almost no one is using them. They are thinking of scrapping the whole thing.

An example he gave me was all major parks in Michigan were giving WiFi abilities, they had 12 hits in a month, a year after it was in.

Cheap internet phones he said may save this, but for data access its more of a gimick for just about everyone.

Charlatan · 03-11-2006, 05:10 AM

Ustwo, no there isn't any such thing as a free lunch...

Quote:

Originally Posted by TorontoHydro's FAQ page

6. What are your rates for this service?
For the first six months, the service will be available free of charge to anyone in the ‘blanketed’ zone. After that time, four packages will be available, and rates will be competitive with Bell, Rogers and Telus.

What gave you the idea that the service would be free?

Some of the things that may come from a city-wide wi-fi blanket:

1) city-wide "free" ip cell phone usage
2) the ability for parking meters and other city objects to report to a central server (i.e. cost savings)
3) taxi cabs with site specific advertising on board
4) tourist information via rentable tablets (get coupons, information, guided tours and directions)

Plus tons of things that people haven't even begun to imagine yet.

The key to this being cheaper than say, Rogers or Bell, who offer cellular services, is that Toronto Hydro owns all the utility poles. Rogers and Bell must rent space for their cellular arays. Toronto Hydro is already a major player in the telcom business. They run trunk lines through most neighbourhoods already.

No free lunch. Just a city-wide buffet.

Martian · 03-11-2006, 05:18 AM

I know a few Torontonians who will love this.

Hell, when they get around to implementing it, it may be enough to cause me to finally move to the Big T.

Ustwo · 03-11-2006, 10:09 AM

I think the issue is only a small minorty of the population will be using it. Its cute, its nice if you use it, but most people won't.

Charlatan · 03-11-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I think the issue is only a small minorty of the population will be using it. Its cute, its nice if you use it, but most people won't.

I'm not sure what that has to do with getting a free lunch...

In anycase, that is the joy of capitalism... a business offers a service. If it catches on, the company makes money. If it doesn't, they don't.

Time will tell if this service catches on. I see no reason to be pessimistic at this point. I am cautiously optimistic. If the service works well and is affordable, I would more than happy to use it.

I have been looking for an excuse to get rid of my land line and live by my cellular service. This would tip it over.

World's King · 03-11-2006, 04:22 PM

Anyone here ever read or seen a Transmetropolitan?

I see the world goin' that direction more and more everyday.

blar · 03-11-2006, 05:13 PM

hrmmm i better buy a lap top soon so i can surf the web on UofT campus

city-wide free cellphone coverage though IP??????

cellophanedeity · 03-12-2006, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blar

hrmmm i better buy a lap top soon so i can surf the web on UofT campus

city-wide free cellphone coverage though IP??????

You can surf the web on UofT campus, or at least in most of the buildings, if you're a student.

Also, most cafes in the area are hotspots.

I hope this catches on though, it would be awesome.

blar · 03-18-2006, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellophanedeity

You can surf the web on UofT campus, or at least in most of the buildings, if you're a student.

Also, most cafes in the area are hotspots.

I hope this catches on though, it would be awesome.

yea lol i just realized this a few weeks

03-08-2006, 09:55 AM	#3 (permalink)
highthief Junkie Location: Ontario, Canada	I bet Rogers and Bell ain't too happy! __________________ Si vis pacem parabellum.

03-08-2006, 10:01 AM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I should think not. But so what? Nothing like a little competition to keep the various monopolies on their toes... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-08-2006, 11:39 AM	#7 (permalink)
Supple Cow Americow, the Beautiful Location: Washington, D.C.	Well, NYC isn't one big hot spot yet, but we do have public wi-fi in some places. I like the idea of having internet access outdoors. When the weather's nice, I like to move as much of my life outdoors as possible so I've been known to bring my laptop to Bryant Park. My school also has it in the lawn in middle of the main campus so the rest of the neighboring community can come and use it, too. I look forward to seeing a whole city go wireless this way, if only to see what happens. Aside from the piracy issue Plaid13 has brought up, I just wonder about the cost and what that will mean in taxes... I bet this topic is going to end up in Politics sooner or later. __________________ "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed." (Michael Jordan)

03-08-2006, 12:43 PM	#9 (permalink)
BadNick Riding the Ocean Spray Location: S.E. PA in U Sofa	Go Toronto! Is Toronto Hydro a government run enterprise or a private business? I'll read more in case it's already there. Though Toronto has really changed a lot and become a lot more diversified since I first spent my Summers there starting about 50yrs ago, I still really like Toronto, even the socialists usually seem friendly In my home town, after on-again-off-again political wrangling during the last year or so, I'm pretty sure Philadelphia recently approved a plan to go city-wide WiFi for "no charge" http://www.phila.gov/wireless/briefing.html Hope this isn't really off-topic, but it reminds me of that concept where all the little WiFi'ers around the country would act like transmission nodes and make the whole U.S. of A one big spider web of interconnected WiFi family Is that real? Last edited by BadNick; 03-08-2006 at 12:46 PM..

03-08-2006, 12:50 PM	#10 (permalink)
Sweetpea Fade out Location: in love	That is a fantastic Idea!!!!! /me moves to Toronto sweetpea __________________ Having a Pet Will Change Your Life! Looking for a great pet?! Click Here! "I am the Type of Person Who Can Get Away With A lot, Simply Because I Don't Ask Permission for the Privilege of Being Myself"

03-08-2006, 10:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	Nah, see, it's Toronto, therefore it's socialist and not good for true Amurricuns. They should just keep paying high rates to the telecoms, as is their patriotic duty.

03-08-2006, 11:17 AM	#6 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	i wonder just how much bandwidth something like that would have and what if anything they would do to deal with piracy and stuff like that.

03-08-2006, 01:44 PM	#12 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	I suppose If they do this prudently and reliably, it could be lucrative for the utility. I wonder where the revenue will go. It would be great if it helped subsidize electricity rates or support grid maintenance, rather than get swallowed up in Hydro's infamous bureaucracy. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

03-08-2006, 02:27 PM	#13 (permalink)
Daniel_ Evil Priest: The Devil Made Me Do It! Location: Southern England	There's just this minute been a story on the BBC TV evening news talking about this happening in London (where it will cost) and Bristol (where it will be free). __________________ ╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗ Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air, And deep beneath the rolling waves, In labyrinths of Coral Caves, The Echo of a distant time Comes willowing across the sand; And everthing is Green and Submarine ╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

03-08-2006, 02:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	TANSTAAFL. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-10-2006, 11:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	A good friend of mine works for AT&T/SBC. The ironic thing is apparently many cities in the US are wired this way and almost no one is using them. They are thinking of scrapping the whole thing. An example he gave me was all major parks in Michigan were giving WiFi abilities, they had 12 hits in a month, a year after it was in. Cheap internet phones he said may save this, but for data access its more of a gimick for just about everyone. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-11-2006, 05:18 AM	#17 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I know a few Torontonians who will love this. Hell, when they get around to implementing it, it may be enough to cause me to finally move to the Big T. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

03-11-2006, 10:09 AM	#18 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	I think the issue is only a small minorty of the population will be using it. Its cute, its nice if you use it, but most people won't. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-11-2006, 04:22 PM	#20 (permalink)
World's King Here Location: Denver City Denver	Anyone here ever read or seen a Transmetropolitan? I see the world goin' that direction more and more everyday. __________________ heavy is the head that wears the crown

03-11-2006, 05:13 PM	#21 (permalink)
blar Insane	hrmmm i better buy a lap top soon so i can surf the web on UofT campus city-wide free cellphone coverage though IP??????