Your Kid's Teacher Used To Be A Man...Now What?
 

Linky

First of all, I'll start by saying that I think this is a really good thing in terms of the rights afforded/granted to transgendered people. And I'm really happy that the school board voted 4-1 to accept her application. It gives me some faith in humanity. I think it's clear that Miss McBeth is confident in who she is, and loves teaching enough to want to continue doing so.

And she'll need that confidence when she goes back to school. Because we all know how cruel kids can be. And not just cruel, but confused. And I'm concerned that the brouhaha brought about - by kids, their parents, the media - will wind up overshadowing her teaching, which is what she wants to do in the first place. I think it will take a lot to erode her confidence, but no doubt, it WILL be tested. In addition, there's no guarantee that she'll actually be called upon to substitute - and if she's not, will it be because other teachers are genuinely more qualified, or higher up in the priority list, or because the school board has received complaints and threats?

This is a tough issue. I'd like to know what you think. Do you support the school board's decision? How would you respond if your 8 year-old came back asking you why Miss McBeth looked kind of like a woman but sounded like a man?

I support the surgery, the school boards decision, and I would tell my daughter 100% of the truth. If you are completly honest with your child they're less likely to be confused now and pissed at you for oversimplifying or lying later.

I, as a human being, am appalled that someone would say this. I would much rather it be introduced and explained now, than to let the child develop harmful views of transgendered people. Sadly, I think the child of this parent will have to grow up with these views.

I support the school boards decision, as the gender of a person shouldn't be the focus of the matter. The only focus should be if the person is qualified to teach children or not.

The best part is; this was an episode of the Simpsons last week.

I for one welcome our new transgenered overlords.

...and I support the board's decsion.

Can I just make sure I understand this....this person had a sex change at the age of 70? and is still teaching at the age of 71?

I agree with you. In a perfect world, that would be the only focus. But in the real world, it's not going to be the case. She's going to have to teach while kids whisper about her, perhaps throw things, (and you thought being a sub was bad before...), she'll have to teach to a class where perhaps half the kids are absent because their parents won't allow them in her class. In other words, she's going to have all of these issues that obstruct her from doing the only thing she wanted to do in the first place. And then, does that make her qualified to teach children, if she can't effectively teach them?

Trying to resist making Lady MacBeth joke...

That said, I think the board made the right (if difficult) decision.

I would tell the kid the truth. It's the same with explaining any "uncomfortable" subject (where babies come from, gender, politics).

On the other hand, why bother explaining it? She's a woman now. I would only explain it if neccessary (after all my born a woman grandmother sounds like a man).

Kids may tell jokes and whisper, but they'll still listen. If the kids aren't in school it's the parents own bigotry that is stopping them from going. Kids will always be kids.. hell I was (some will say I still am) Satan incarnate when I was in school, but I still learned a few things. :)

Since it's something she wanted to do in the first place, and because it's still taboo (Transgender) somewhat, she won't mind the obstacles that she'll face. In fact, she may be doing more good than just teaching a few kids. She may have just broken one of many doors down.

Yes Mr. Garrison.

First Southpark had the 'All the flims are about gay cowboys eating pudding' come true.

Now this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rsgarrison.JPG

someone had to do it.

Butters( as Margerine)-" I love make-up, shopping, and getting my snooch pounded on friday nights"
Clyde-"nice"
Mrs. Garrison-" Now, Margerine, us Colorado girls like to get pounded in the snizz just as much as anyone, but we keep it to ourselves"

These parents should be warned: when children are taught to hate a group of people, it is easier for them to hate anyone, incluidng their parents.

Since I am feeling rather lazy today I will just c&p my response from another place:
Trust me, when a 6 year old sees and recognizes that Mr. M is dressing as a woman, that 6 year old will ask, usually quite loudly and without remorse, 'Why is Mr. M dressed like a lady??'
It's the point of confusion that should be addressed by parents in a non-condemning manner, but instead they take the easy way out by using their kids as their excuse for not willing to discuss this type of diversity. The great thing about small children, at least of school age, is when they don't understand they SAY they don't understand and that is the time to talk to them. To stand there and tell anyone that THEY are confusing to their children and therefore should not be around them is a copout.
Addendum: Anyone that can do their job in the best manner needed and is not considered a personal threat to the welfare of their charges should be allowed to do that job regardless of their 'appearance' or personal choices. Hell, if the teachers in TFP alone were judged and hired on personal choices and lifestyles, they'd all be out of jobs. :lol:

Most of you arn't parents. I've been a parent myself for about a year and a half. While intellectually you can imagine being a parent, no one who doesn't have children can understand the emotional attachment involved. My knowledge of evolutionary biology may tell me its all chemical, but it doesn't matter, it just is.

Likewise you don't need to be a parent to think that a grown man wanting his penis to be removed has something fundamentally wrong with him. Regardless of your stance on transsexuals, something didn't work right at some point in genetics, development, whatever that caused this desire.

When something this basic is wrong, it is natural to think what else is wrong with this person. Perhaps nothing else is wrong but the concept of removing ones genitals is alien to most thinking.

Now comes the protective instinct of parents. You don't get between a grizzly and her cubs, well the same applies to soccer moms. If you are odd, and very little is as odd as a sex change, your instinct is to protect. You don't CARE about the feelings of the other person, you worry about your child. As such I would not fault a parent from not wanting their child exposed to this.

I personally think the kids involved are young enough that it wouldn't matter, I would be more worried if it were high school because it would become far more of a distraction.

the question implies something needs to be done.

i dunno. Maybe go to parent/teacher conferences...or read my kid's homework...something like that. You know..what you usually do.

Congrats on being a parent for 18 months. It's gets 'better'.... As the mother of twins for almost 14 years, I can assure you that most of what you say is BS if (big if in some parts of the country, for sure) the parent is open-minded enough to consider all angles. Our primary job, those of us that at least make the attempt to do it, is to teach our kids about feelings and how to both express them, not hurt others and be open enough for them to know they can come to us. "Exposed" to this? I don't think this teacher will be showing scars, etc.
Having worked with kids both as a volunteer in elementary school and as an aide for three years, rest assured that kids WILL ask questions, make comments and want to know things. High school kids are ruder, but they still have a curiosity that should be met logically and without prejudging and if they prejudge, should be shown why that is wrong. It is nice to see that now at least, while some of the rudeness is still around, acceptance is more commonplace than it was way back when I was that age and they ask and confide in those they trust.
My definition of 'odd' in terms of protection is NOT Mr. M becoming Ms. M, it's the slovenly guy up the street who likes handing out candy or the 50 year old man who dresses like the 70's Alice Cooper, rides a bike and can't form a sentence without saying 'doooood'.
Parents that use that 'I want to protect my child' are full of bull. They want to protect themselves from the harder parts of the job they chose to do-teach their own kids about the world without projecting their own bigotries.

So we should punish these people because other people can't get their heads around the concept?

The first incorrect assumption is that something is fundamentally wrong with the teacher. If it's genetics, are we going to keep people with other genetic disorders from teaching? If it's developmental/psychological, how about we turn away anyone who suffers from depression, or has been sexually abused? As long as this teacher is fit to teach and can pass all the screenings that other teachers have to pass, I see no reason to turn her away.

Discomfort about the situation is absolutely normal and understandable; catering to that discomfort by denying a good teacher the chance to practice her profession is not. There are plenty of parents out there who deep deep down would object to having a black person teach their child. Should we cater to that discomfort as well?

wouldnt especially bother me, and I wouldnt have an issue with my kids knowing about people who change gender identity. Its part of the world they're going to live in, I dont see any sense in hiding it, and I dont see it as something especially immoral or unpleasant in any event. All that matters to me is that if the person is a good teacher, who cares about the kids and can connect with them, encourage them, educate them... Im not really that bothered what their sexual preference is, or if they have changed their gender.

Wanting your penis removed is self mutilation at its most profound form. Something is wrong with you if you want that. WHAT precisely is wrong with you I don't know, no one does for sure, but it is in fact not even remotely normal.

If you want to rationalize this until the point where we must accept everything as wonderful and normal, be my guest.

So likewise let me straw man you like you did me and say where do we draw a line? Is a known horsefucker ok to teach your kids? What about a necrophiliac? How about a 'grown baby' who wants to wear a diaper to school? Should we cater to that discomfort as well?

Don't take this tract with me. I said I wouldn't have a problem with it myself, but others should understand where this feeling comes from. I do think this would be an issue with a highschool age kid because we all know what sexuality is like in highschool and this would be a MAJOR disruption to teaching.

If one is upfront about it, it wouldn't be a distraction. It becomes one when the whispering, asides and rumors float like fruitflies on a rotten apple.
Example: In the Jr. High where I worked, there were two obviously gay male teachers and they began to see each other offtime. Everyone knew. Everyone liked these two immensely-one was a music teacher, the other a permanent sub. Kids knew. Did they care? Not on-campus. They spoke highly of both. You aren't giving kids the credit for having at least some brains. And I assure you, they are more aware, more understanding and more accepting than they were 30, 20 or even possibly 10 years ago. Hell, I wasn't even accepted for having acne...they've come a very long way, thankfully.

The bear is protecting her offspring from a predator. The soccer mom is imagining a need to protect her children from something that she doesn't understand. Everyone in my neighborhood seemed concerned about the gay guy in the neighborhood but few of them knew about the registered sex offender we had across the street from my house. Being gay or transexual doesn't make someone want to harm children, have sex with them, bake them in a cake and eat them or any other bizarre thing one can imagine.

Edit: Yes I agree the parents intention is to try to protect the child, but really what are they protecting them from in this case?

To a small child, anything can be controversial. A person in a wheelchair can elicit inappropriate questions, a person of different skin tone can cause verbal curiosity to emenate from their curious minds. Most kids are only going to know something is up because of all the attention she's getting.

These parents need to get over themselves. Their precious little shits aren't going to be perverted or mentally damaged by a kindly old woman with a deep voice and big hands. If she's a good teacher, then that's that, and nothing else.

So a good teacher wearing on oversized diaper would be ok too?

I'm just wondering where we draw the line here, or if we do.

"Mommy didn't Mrs. Smith used to be Mr. Smith?"

"Yes dear, but she didn't feel comfortable being Mr. Smith so now shes Mrs. Smith."

"Mommy why is Mr. Smith wearing a diaper and has a binki on a string around his neck?"

"Mr. Smith is most comfortable when he dresses like a baby, so thats what he does."

i agreee 100%.

there is no point in the idea that some people have of shielding a child from people who are a part of our society.

Children should be taught to embrace differences. and i would have no problem explaining this to my child if they had this individual as their teacher.

sweetpea

I'm happy she can still teach in the district.
It's just something else the kids can learn about.
She spent 70 years as a man.
( "his" sex life may be over anyway)
If she wants to spend the rest as a woman it's ok with me :-)

Hearkening back to the circumcision thread - this seems to be the complete opposite of what you were arguing there. So which way is it? Is cutting off part of your penis OK, but cutting all of it is wrong?

This is obviously a much larger operation than circumcision - and people still obviously feel the need to do it. We shouldn't be judging their need to do it - we should try to be accepting of their choice.

This is a similar kind of discussion to circumcision, that I know will need to take place, at the appropriate time (i.e when my son says "my penis looks like this, Jimmy's penis looks different. why?)

These school kids are unlikely to see their teachers penis or lack thereof - I think the area that would really need addressing is "why is this teacher dressed as a woman?". As parents, it is our responsibilty to explain things to our children - this world is full of stuff that is outside our usual normality - this is just another of them.

We're talking about a transgendered person, not a fetishist, which are totally different things. Also, this is little more than a "slippery slope" argument, which is specious at best (and completely irrelevent at worst).

There are laws about sanitation in school. They could wear the diaper, but not use it.
How about.....the law. If you don't think it's fair, write your local representative and see that transgender surgeries are made to be illegal. Until then it's all hot air.
"Yes, Mrs. Smith was born with a ladies brain in a man's body. Now she is happy."

I happen to know that one of my daughters future teachers (unless she leaves or is made to leave) is gay. Do you know how I know? Everyone thinks it's their buisness, and, due to their inexperience with homosexuals, seem to have the belief that homosexuality is contagious like influenza and are worried that their child will be forever warped and corrupted.

Ustwo... you start off by suggesting that this is how Other (soccor Mom's) might see this and further suggest that you don't agree. They you go in post 21 to agree with the Soccor Mom.

Which is it?

By the way, necrophilia, beastiality and pedophilia are all illegal activities and have to do with deviant sexuality. What does this have to do with transgenderism? You can't seriously be equating them?

As a parent, I know exactly what I would say and what I have said to explain transgenderism to my kids. Like I said above, the truth or nothing at all depending on the situation.

Perhaps our diaper-fixated respondent is just pushing buttons....in which case, unlike Pavlov's dogs, this is as close to a reaction as it gets....

Some of you are able to accept just about anything as being "normal" or at least "acceptable," all in the name of HUMAN RIGHTS. And I agree with you to a certain point. But there is just no denying the fact that this type of behavior is more than a little bit 'off'. Especially in a school environment.

Again, where do you draw the line? Instead of throwing non sequtirs, why don't you answer this question? You can't possibly consider a sex-change as a natural phenomenon?

The line for what is considered normal and acceptable continues to be pushed and pushed and pushed by those who choose to live in such abnormal ways.

This guy should be able to do just about anything he wants in life. But teaching little kids is a little iffy in my mind.

Why? What will prevent her from being a good teacher now that she doesn't have testicles?

Let me ask this....what crime has been committed here that would forbid this person from teaching? That is where I draw the line, ridiculous scenarios notwithstanding.
If this person is qualified, has passed the necessary certifications and has years of successful teaching past, what, pray tell is the problem? Ms. M has an Adam's Apple?? Bet if you met some transgenders in passing, you wouldn't know and certain ones are making baseless comments on the fact that this one aspect of a person's life has been brought to the forefront. This 19th century thinking of all teachers being only one step down from saintly is so archaic. Personally, having worked side by side with teachers for several years, I find them to be superhuman, maybe...but certainly not superomnipotent. I have the highest regard for them and next to parenting, is probably the hardest, most responsible job a person could have.

kids are too delicate to have that in their mind.... it will freak out and pervert elementry kids.... middle school kids would make fun of it way to much, and he would get made fun of and could inspire kids to become transgendered in highschool.... plus it sparks sexual thoughts in the kids..... as for college, i think he could do that without a problem

Nah, it's corrective surgery. We don't know what the cause is with 100% certainty, but there is strong evidence. When this woman dies, I'd be willing to lay a large wager on her BSTc being female in appearance.

Also, there's no evidence that transsexuals suffer more often from psychological disorders other than those directly related to their transsexualism.

In North America there have been three or four MTF teachers transition on the job, all at the high school level. One quit her job as an art teacher the following year due to stress, but was performing her job adequately at the time. Another transitioned in Canada a few years ago and continues to teach high school English, and one teacher recently did the same in . . . somewhere in the Northeast. It remains to be seen how her case will turn out.

There are others doing so quite quietly in stealth mode.

Several others have attempted transition and been fired, by far the most common reaction.

Gilda

She's a substitute. Retired teachers frequently substitute to make extra income. It's actually possible to retire and substitute and make more money that way if you've been teaching long enough.

The age of her SRS is very unusual, but not unheard of. I can guaran-damn-tee you Dr. Preecha was her surgeon, as nobody else will operate on women that age.

Gilda

I have no idea what someone changing their gender has to do with their ability to teach.

I think you have to realize that a transgendered person has no obligation to tell you that they have changed gender. For all you know, the woman you flirted with at the bar last night used to be Fred.

In the end, all that matters is that person is qualified to teach, non-sequitors about illegal activities aside. What you personally feel about it being "deviant" is irrelevant.

Being in a body that's the wrong sex is a fundamental problem, I agree completely. The something that didn't work out is very likely a faulty hormone wash at about the 12th week of gestation, though there are other current theories.

Natural perhaps, but wrong. And the genitals aren't removed, they are surgical altered into the form that matches the patient's internal gender.

Gilda

At least we know she ain't gonna try to fuck one of the kids...

absolutely not. Although it seems that many small minded people would like to do so. :|


i find some of the obvious discrimination in this thread offending.

Keep in mind everyone... transgendered individuals are human beings, people who are just trying to be happy with themselves, people who have struggled with their gender image for goodness knows how long and finally found the courage to embrace who they are... WHY anyone want to stand in the way of that is beyond me.

sweetpea

How do you think being around a transsexual teacher would influence a child to become transsexual? What would the mechanism be?

Gilda

Just have to kind of threadjack based on that. A few years back, several of us went to a huge dance club. At the bar was a lanky blonde, dressed very nicely and surrounded by guys, giggling with the 'head toss'...and not ONE noticed the adam's apple, the huge square hands and long feet!! I whispered my findings to my friends as we watched Missy dance with partner after partner. As we left, one of my friends wanted to say goodnight to the bartender, a friend of hers and, yep, there he was, getting googly with Missy. My friend let him in on our 'discovery', at first he said no way, then on second or third look....realized....now, maybe I can see the others not knowing,what with drinking, etc....but the bartender? :lol:
Which brings me to this: every comment here is based on a preconceived prejudice because of the story as presented. Had the story been about a woman teacher who, after 33 years, got new breasts and then left her spouse for a woman, this wouldn't even make the internet.
Let's see....is the person in question certified to teach? Qualified? Otherwise healthy? This just doesn't seem to be such a big issue to me and yet forums are up in arms over it.
In New Jersey, substitute teachers need to take a certification test just for THAT job and this person has an entire career behind her in the field. So many burn out-teaching is a demanding job-and she wants to keep on. For that alone, I think she's terrific.

What behavior are you talking about? In what way do you expect this woman to behave that would be harmful to the children?

No surgery is. What does that have to do with whether she's competent to teach children?

In what way do you think she's living an abnormal life? By that, I mean, what evidence do you have that she's going to behave any differently around the children than she did before or than any other elderly woman?

Gilda

Absolutely right.

Gilda

That's the only thing that raised my eyebrows. Seems to me 70 is somewhat old to be having surgery that is not necessary to sustain life. What a risk she took.

I draw the line where the behavior of the teacher has an adverse affect on the education of the students. I don't consider surgery, whether it's corrective or elective, a behavior that adversely affects the education of students.

For those who are opposed to this woman being allowed to teach, what is it about it that bothers you so much?

It's a quality of life issue, not quantity, but it is very often necessary to the patient's psychological well being. If she's in good health, one particular Thai surgeon, Dr. Preecha, has quite a bit of experience at performing the surgery on elderly patients safely and effectively. Most SRS surgeries are performed between the ages of 30 and 50, but younger and older do occur.

Gilda

The testies are removed no? An orchectomy is really all that matters, without the gonads the rest is just extra flaps of skin.

the news story doesn't really give much info on the circumstances, and i'm sure i would have a better grasp of the situation if i knew the community/school/teacher.

the bottom line for me is the effectiveness of the teacher. i would need some assurances that what appears to be an old man dressing as a woman would not be a distraction in the classroom. right now i'm skeptical. i don't think it's unreasonable to imagine students concentrating more on the teacher than the material. but i would like to hear reactions from the students and parents from the school, they will have a better feel for this.

Yes, the testes are removed and discarded. I was responding to your statment regarding "removing genitals". This woman still has genitals, she just has them in a form that matches her internal gender.

I personally consider my genitals to be a lot more than just extra flaps of skin, and I suspect most women do as well.

Gilda

Why would you object to a 50 year old bike riding Alice Cooper fan teaching your kids? What threat does he pose?

From an evolutionary psychological point of view... this transsexual is highly successful:


I find it repulsive in a squeamish sort of way. I am also somewhat repulsed by Medical Accidents removing the testicles.

I guess my question is: -if the man above; this victim of medical malpractice; decided to become a teacher -would there be the same brouhaha? Why not?

astro...likely none.

as long as he presented and was read as "masculine" it would never come up at all.

I have this peeve for times when another focuses on half a statement.....I don't care if the person is a fan of someone. I said "the 50 year old man who dresses like the 70's Alice Cooper, rides a bike and can't form a sentence without saying 'doooood' ". That person (who is real, btw) is more unnormal than anyone trying(and succeeding) to reconcile their internal gender with their external. If you would like someone who can't live in the real world to teach your kids, that's your perogative.

given, but how far do we take the surgery-for-psychological-wellbeing bit?

Body Integrity Identity Disorder is a condition in which the patient does not feel complete until a (perfectly healthy) limb has been amputated. They'll do just about anything to get rid of that limb - and some doctors are oblidging them. Once the limb is gone, they feel great.

So the question is, should doctors amputate just because someone feels their current body layout is wrong? And by the same token, should doctors operate in a sex change on a high-risk patient? There are some very disturbing medical ethics questions that arise when you turn to surgery to correct a psychological condition.

While these are interesting questions, they have no bearing on the topic at hand (unless I missing something - no pun intended).

I would consider that person more normal and in touch with the real world than someone who'd undergo surgery to change their gender.

Some here seem to consider trans-gender surgery the most normal thing in the world and seem genuinely confused as to why some might have some sort of reservation regarding it. As open-minded as you all want to appear, can you not see why some people would be very sceptical about it all? I mean, if you can be wary of a 50 year old throwback to 70s punk rock who says "Dude" frequently, can you not understand how others would be wary of someone who surgically went from a he to a she?

Of course most can understand why some people would be concerned or have questions. Given that transgender surgery isn't common and that many have erroneous, preconcieved notions about the whole process... it is almost a given.

I will make no comment on the alice cooper wannabe because I see it as a red herring in this discussion. But I will say that if I read Dawg's intent correctly, there is more that is wierd in this fellow than a woman who just happened to once have had a penis.

The only part that is odd in this is that the teacher returned to work at the same school. Parents (and the administration) are uncomfortable with having to explain what it means to be transgendered to children. Had the teacher started work at another school, the issue would be moot. New teachers start at schools all the time.

Personally, I see this whole thing as a teaching opportunity.

I suppose what I like to do in something like this is bring out the hypocrisy I see in these issues. What makes one thing something parents should just ‘get over’ and another something that’s just a fetish?

If this is all about being comfortable in your own skin and a good teacher then really no moral or psychological matters should come into play. I’m sure someday someone will isolate what makes someone transsexual. It will either genetic or developmental in nature, most likely both, but they will say here is the cause. But this same thing can be said for almost anything, even things like being violent will have definable genetic components.

So lets forget diaper man and it seems to be making people miss the point.

Lets take this one step back even, lets say the teacher was a cross dresser. So now instead of wanting to BE a woman, he just now wants to feel like one. I don’t understand cross dressing any more than I understand transsexuals, but obviously they feel a need to do it or they wouldn’t be doing it. Is this just a fetish to be dismissed out of hand, while wanting your penis ‘altered’ is something that we should just get over?

I ask again, where do YOU draw your line?

This discussion is rather pointless in my opinion. The focus is on who the teacher is rather than how they teach the kids. Very few people approve of a teacher who hits students for example... however a teacher that merely holds the view that Corporeal Punishment is Okay (without crossing the boundry of hitting kids) is probably an acceptable teacher. Another example is that of a Religious teacher who is using school time to attempt to convert students. The line is crossed when 'being' religious takes up class time and is otherwise forced upon unwitting children.

It seems that the Ultra-Conservative element in this society wants to peer into everyone's closets. From their standpoint: it doesn't matter if you are good at your job -all that matters is if they "approve" of you or not. Obviously, a person who has a sex change does not meet their approval.

When it becomes a danger to the children to which he/she is entrusted.

While I, personally, may raise an eyebrow...hell, two eyebrows even, in the end...it's none of my business. It only becomes my business when there exists the potential for harm to come to the students. Somehow, I do not expect Lily McBeth to begin indoctrinating children on the virtues of transsexualism. So long as "Miss" McBeth does "her" job, and does it well...her personal life is of no concern to me. The only thing that I truly care about is her professional life.

Consider. When I'm looking for a good orthodontist, I don't particularly care whether or not he's wearing pretty lacy women's undergarments under his Dockers. Or whether or not he likes to dress up as a chicken when he gets home. All I care about is whether he can straighten my kid's teeth, and do a good job of it.

Excellent post Ustwo.

I will say this... most crossdressers are straight men who do it in their spare time (i.e. at home or the like). In my mind, it's a totally seperate issue. I would not welcome his crossdressing in class, I would also say that someone to coming to class in bondage gear is wrong for the same reason.

I liken transgendered individuals to homosexuals in that it is not a fashion choice (though some would like to depate this, let's not do it here for sake of the arguement). I would not expect a homosexual teacher to be overt in their sexuality anymore than a heterosexual one.

What I'm getting at is that the examples you draw have more to do with sexual proclivities. The issues of homosexuality and transgenderism need not.

I've been lurking on this thread, but this is just too interesting to pass up.

Ustwo, I think I understand where you're coming from even though I think that it's a flawed position. We're talking about personal appearance as the core issue, I think. Mr. McBeth now wants to be seen as Ms. McBeth. Let's leave the sexual aspect of it aside for a moment and look at that other issue that's always devisive in school (and not really relevent except to make a point) - religion.

What if Mr. McBeth, instead of going through gender reassignment, went through a religious conversion? Now he's gone from Christian (I'm making an assumption) to, say a Hasidic Jew, which I'm singling out because of the men's distinctive ear locks, dress and beards. He could also become a Sikh and have to grow his beard and wear a turban. Regardless, his personal appearance is going to be radically different than it was the previous school year. Is anyone upset by that? How about if he dyes his hair purple wears leather clothes and has an earring? Yeah, he looks like an idiot since he's 71, but he's still a good teacher.

Personally, I think that once I'm past the discomforting thought of having my penis cut off, I'm fine with whatever this guy wants to do with his appearance. If he's touching children inappropriately or hitting them or teaching them that the Shakespeare wasn't much of a writer but did a great job building the pyramids, then I've got a problem. Surely, he/she realizes that there are going to be lots of questions by the kids, many of them inappropriate, but that his own decision and life that he chooses to lead.

Excuse me, for just a moment, while I regress back to Middle School. Does this send cold chills up anyone elses spine? Didn't you draw your legs in...just a little closer?

The testes are removed...and discarded. Wow...just like that. Cold. Clinical.

Violence directly harms others. Crossdressing isn't always a paraphilia, though it can be, and it's a pretty harmless one.

I think both are harmless. So what if a guy goes home and puts on a dress? Is that somehow lessening his ability to teach his students? Ms. McBeth is now a woman, so when she shows up in women's clothes, she's dressed appropriately for her sex. To continue with your analogy, she'd be crossdressing if she showed up with a male presentation.

Gilda

I've read of MTF's or their wives wanting to keep them as a trophy of sorts, but it's not allowed, as they're considered medical waste.

Gilda

Gilda, I think Ustwo was speaking about a crossdress who shows up to teach a class dressed as a woman (as opposed to one that does so in their private time).

So you are saying any 'non-normal' behavior should be kept in the closet at home?

That wasn't clear, but thank you. Male crossdressers have been fired from jobs because of crossdressing in their private lives, which I find ridiculous.

Gilda

I've heard of this as well, and I agree ridiculous.

:lol:

Just how successful a doctor do you think I'd be if I showed up wearing a dress?

I'd fire any male employee who cross dressed not because I really give a shit, but because it would cost me money. I'm getting parents to entrust their children with me, I'm not out to change the social order. A business exists to make money, not make social statements. Maybe if I was in Berkeley it wouldn't matter, and I could most likely increase my patient flow by putting Bushhitler posters up as well, but in the rest of middle America I'd be committing financial suicide.

If a guy wants to dress like a woman and work they should open their own place and see how well that works out.

Dude, Ustwo... Key concept being NOT AT WORK. Read a little more carefully...

Ok missed that, I confess.

But people are still skirting around the issue here.

Its ok for a guy to get a sex change and teach but it wouldn't be ok for a guy to cross dress and teach? (and just to be clear this is cross dressing in the class room, not at home, not at a party, but at work)

Okay if your asking does, "Ms. M still KNOW how to teach?" Yes, her gender change did nothing to change her abilities to teach children.

If your asking "Is it okay for a person who changes gender to teach in a class?" Playing the Devils advocate here, yes and no.

Yes I feel that he/she (could go either way) can still teach. No I don't think that he/she should be able to teach in the SAME elementary class/school if he/she has been teaching in the class/school for a while. When I was in elementary school I loved my teachers, and there sex was a part of it. My male teachers were a little more (for the sake of argument) fatherly, and my female teachers motherly. I would compare them to other male role models that were around me. My female teachers I would compare to my female role models.
Children are children and will get confused or unnerved about things. Especially when there parents have biased feelings about them. Yes you can explain this to them all in till you a blue in the face, and most will get it and be okay. Some might still not get why Mr. M became Ms. M and can be comfortable with that. Those boys or girls who were used to the manly Mr. M might just not get the change to Ms. M. Come on there Elementary CHILDREN, not grown adults. They don't see things like adults do, especially when you take the children's parents into account. Bottom line children see things how there parents do 70% of the time, and if there parent has a (wrongly so) negative view then so are they. The schools job isn't to educate the parents it's to educate the children, despite the nonsense the parents may put there.

I'm sorry, some people have to change there lifestyles because of there jobs, some people my have to change there jobs because of there lifestyles.

My solution would be to take a year off, then allow the teacher back to teach at the school. I'd say a large part of the people who were the problem causers will completely forget about it, and you can start your New life fresh. Like it or not your life is now new and there is going to be a lot of changes.

That's because they are two entirely different things.

In the crossdressing scenario, he is acting out a fetish in the classroom. Just as I wouldn't expect to see a teacher show up in bondage gear to teach a class I do not expect to see a crossdresser.

In the transgendered scenario, the teacher was a man before the operation and is (for all intents and purposes) a female after the operation. Unless there is a law forbidding women from teaching I don't see the problem.


I can, however, understand the discomfort of the scenario described by dragonknight above. While I would hope that one day it would be fine for the man to return and as a woman and pick up where they left off, I recognize that this might not be the most practical of situations. Legally, they should be allowed to do it but I think the transgenered person should take a long hard think about the whole situation before they try to resume their old life. There are more people involved than just themselves.

I would, however, support either decision to the fullest.

I wonder if someone had some hideous deformity -if they'd be allowed to teach. I wonder if someone had a punk rock hairstyle -if they'd be allowed to teach. I wonder if teachers who hold opinions that don't favor the current Bush Government -if they'd be allowed to teach.

http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086910.htm

They would if the school didn't want to be sued to hell and gone.

Well, they shouldn't be. There is such a thing as professional dress. Teachers don't even have to dress that professionally. But if you can't be bothered not to look like a train wreck when you show up to your job, you shouldn't have the job. If you insist on doing the punk rock thing, there are plenty of clubs, bars, and junkyards where that kind of look will fly. But teachers are professionals and should act as such.




In most cases, yes. The article you quoted is somewhat irrelevant. Just becasue one school has one asshole does not mean that is the same case for all schools.




http://atheism.about.com/b/a/086910.htm[/QUOTE]

I'm sure that story is 100% accurate astrocloud as I know everything on the internet is true :)

There's a difference between gender issues and sex issues.

Gender isn't about who you sleep with, which kinks and fetishes you have, or even what clothes you wear. Sexuality isn't about whether you are male or female.

The thing about gender is that it is not something that you can conceal without hurting yourself. Changing your physical appearance through medical procedures isn't about comfort, as you suggest, it's about psychological wellbeing. I sincerely doubt that the procedures one goes through to change their appearance are "comfortable."

People are brought up being told things like "This is what boys wear" or "this is what a female looks like" and when you know you're not in the right category, you want to become what you know you should be.

Ustwo, you're pretty certain you're male, but if you woke up one morning and you were suddenly mostly hairless, soft cheekbones, had breasts and a vulva, and were mighty pretty, I have a feeling you'd still be certain that you were male.

That would definitely throw someone for a loop, but obviously things don't work that way.

If a man feels as if he needs to be a woman, or feels as if he actually is a woman, then that man is confused. Nothing wrong with that, but when he decides to have "sexual reassignment surgery," as someone put it, that doesn't make him a woman. It makes him a confused man with altered body parts. He is still the same person he was. He is not a she.

Now I know every once in a while someone is born with visual sexual complications but that is not what we're talking about here.

If you want to be an aardvark, sniffing ants up your nose isn't going to do it for you. And if you want to be a woman....well, too bad; you're not a woman. Mutilating yourself might fool some people in regards to your appearance, but you are still the same man you always were. And will be for your entire life, surgery or not. You can do a lot of lying to yourself, but all the people you know, all the women you slept with, your brothers and sisters and your mother and father will all know you are a man who is confused.

And again, that's fine. But you shouldn't be allowed to go through that transformation in front of these school kids.

While I agree surgery like this doesn't make you a woman, I would say you are DEFINATELY not the same man you were.

You may be the same person, but you'd be in the right body for you, even if other people disagreed with that.

And why shouldn't people learn about things like this in school? It's not too much more distracting than having a big (wide or tall) teacher, a teacher with a "funny" accent, a religous teacher, or a hot teacher, but it is educational.

A coworker told me that she wouldn't want her future children to talk to gay people incase they decided that gay people were okay. I have a feeling this is the same fear.

I disagree. MacBeth is still a man-- albeit a dickless one. He's therefore a cross-dresser.

P.S. Did I overlook the poll where we decided which restroom Lady MacBeth will be using?

If he/she/it were a high school teacher, and he went to one of their football games dressed as the opposite sex (whatever that is), I have the strong feeling that his class might not get as much accomplished in the next few sessions.

The underlying principle is the same as what you said in the horsefucking thread-- some people have an extremely high tolerance of the "ick factor."

Although I admit that Stan and Cartman seem to have adapted to Mr. Hat quite well.

I don't think its a high 'ick' factor, its just a different 'ick' factor. I'm sure the threesomes I've had in my life would trigger other peoples 'ick' factor. I recall joking with a friend of mine years ago about how it wouldn't bother me if my GF had a girlfriend as well, and he thought of it as the same as having another boyfriend. We all have different ick factors.

What I do find someone interesting is the hypocrisy involved. There is a smug 'get over it' attitude for those whos ick factor includes what many would consider self mutilation, yet themselves defend their own 'ick' factor.

If a teacher decided to look like this......

http://sandiegojack.com/whack/conten...e/piercing.jpg

Would that be any different than a sex change in terms of classroom distruption? If this is all about who you feel you are and how you need to express that, I don't think a huge leap is needed.

The other issue is you can't pick your teachers in the government school system. Its not as if parents have a choice unless they can afford private schools, in which case they pay double in property taxes and then private school tuition.

Really though, despite all the fuss, I find this to be most likely the least pressing issue to be delt with in government schools these days.

Well, if he (?) teaches acupuncture or tattoo art ...

Which of course brings up the topic of vouchers, but that's probably better suited for Tilted Politics.

Nice illustration of your point, though.

Except that for a transsexual, that's exactly how it feels. They have something profound inside them that tells them that their body is not the sex it is supposed to be. Her mind is already female.

Sexual reassignment surgery is the standard terminology, primarily because it is accompanied by a legal change of sex. We are assigned a sex at birth based on a visual inspection of our genitals, and SRS changes that assignment to reflect the new genitals. GRS, or genital reconstruction surgery is another common term, but SRS is the most common.

If someone starts with a female mind and male body, then alters that body to a female form, that person then has a female mind and a morphically female body. That is what we call a woman.

You're correct. Ambiguous or abnormal physical sexual characteristics disqualify one from being classified as transsexual. One of the prerequisites is that the transsexual have normal primary sexual characteristics.

How do you define what makes a person a man? That's the unstated assumption all of your statements are based upon, and it isn't exactly clear what that basis is. Is it genetics, birth assignment, primary sexual characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, mental compositon, or something else?

SRS is not mutilation. It used to be, it used to leave a mutilated mess that resembled no human set of genitals, but it's been a long time since that was true. Modern SRS techniques routinely produce genitals that are indistiguishable from biological ones in appearance and sexual function, at least for MTF surgery from a competent surgeon, of which there are many.

If a person feels female in that person's mind, has a body that is in appearance and function female, is legally and socially female, is treated by others as female, doesn't it make more sense to refer to that person as a female and not a male?

You are factually wrong here. It is not a matter of opinion or interpretation, you are just factually absolutely wrong.

She didn't. She went through it on a surgeon's table, most likely in Bankok, Thailand, far, far away from the kids.

Gilda

Firstly, I'm not saying the guy pictured isn't a freak :)

but I have to say that this example (above) is completely different from the original question. If a well respected teacher was to disappear during summer holidays and return to work with face tattoos and piercings could the school dismiss them? And if so, why?

Further, how much tattooing is too much? how many piercings? where do you draw the line?

They are the same teacher, aren't they?

Why would there be a poll? She'll use the almost certainly use the ladies room. It can be a difficult choice early on for younger and middle-aged MTF's, but I doubt anyone wil blink an eye.

Gilda

Actually, it's quite different. That guy (?? I'm really not 100% sure, sorry) is modifying his appearance to stick out of societal norms. This 70 year old teacher is undergoing modification to try to fit into societal norms. When you're evaluating whether a "classroom disruption" is justified, I think that makes a world of difference.


That's reassuring, because it means that the people posting so prolifically to this thread aren't so far apart...

There's a whole lot more to the sexual reassignment process than just SRS, and the surgery is generally the last step in the process. Exceptions are made in expedient circumstances such as extreme age.

Gilda

Darn it. You came here and said what I wanted to say, but better and using less words and stuff. Well done.

Here's one example. Take a fine tipped sewing pin, and heat up up, stick it into your face and hold it there while you run heat and electricity through it for between seven and twenty seconds. Sounds' like it would hurt, doesn't it? Now have this done some 20-50,000 times over a period of one to three years. Electrolysis to remove the beard is one of the most painful and expensive parts of the process.

Take it a bit further, and have this done on the shaft of the penis, around the base of the penis to clear about an inch of space, and a strip half an inch wide going down the center of the scrotum to the perenium. Doesn't take nearly as long, but it turns the pain factor way, way up.

Exactly.

Gilda

Sure it is. That person is a freak. I say that without malice, because it's pretty clear to me that he's decided that's what he wants to be, so I seriously doubt that it would be considered an insult.

An MTF isn't trying to stand out, in most cases, but to fit in. It's exactly the opposite impulse and desire.

Often, you can. If there are multiple teachers at a grade level, it isn't unusual for schools to honor a parent's request for a certain teacher.

Also, remember that this is a substitute. She's going to be there one day, not the everyday teacher.

Gilda

I'm glad I said it properly, Gilda.

Both feel most happy apparently in their respective mutilated states.

YOU have decided that having a need to have your penis 'altered' and your testicles removed is different than this guys desire to be a human pin cushion.

I see no difference they both felt that disfiguring themselves was what was best for them.

After all who are YOU to judge?

When I Was A Boy

I won't forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand
I said I was a boy, I'm glad he didn't check.
I learned to fly, I learned to fight, I lived a whole life in one night
We saved each other's lives out on the pirate's deck.
And I remember that night when I'm leaving a late night with some friends
And I hear somebody tell me it's not safe, someone should help me
I need to find a nice man to walk me home.
When I was a boy, I scared the pants off of my mom,
Climbed what I could climbup on
And I don't know how I survived, I guess I knew the tricks that all the boys knew
And you could walk me home, but I was a boy, too.

I was a kid that you would like, just a small boy on her bike
Riding topless, yeah I never cared who saw.
My neighbor came outside to say, "Get your shirt," I said "No way
It's the last time, I'm not breaking any law."
And now I'm in a clothing store, and the signs say Less is More
More that's tight means more to see, more for them, not more for me
That can't help me climb a tree in ten seconds flat
When I was a boy, see that picture? That was me
Grass stained shirt and dusty knees.
And I know things have gotta change,
They got pills to sell, they've got implants to put in, they've got implants to remove
But I am not forgetting
That I was a boy too.

And like the woods where I would creep, it's a secret I can keep
Except when I'm tired, except when I'm being caught off guard.
I've had a lonesome awful day, the conversation finds it's way
To catchng fireflies out in the backyard
And I tell the man I'm with about the other life I lived
And I say now you're top gun, I have lost and you have won
And he says "Oh no, oh, no, can't you see
When I was a girl, my mom and I, we always talked
And I picked flowers everywhere that I walked
And I could always cry, now even when I'm alone I seldom do
And I have lost some kindness,
But I was a girl too.
And you were just like me, and I was just like you."

Dar Williams

Gilda

Nope. An MTF feels most unhappy in her mutilated state, and that's why she has surgery to correct that.

Need is different than desire. The latter is a choice, the former, not so much.

Nope. SRS does not leave the patient disfigured, and no MTF feels she is disfiguring herself by having the surgery, at least none of those I've met.

Gilda