Charlatan

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

cellophanedeity

There's a difference between gender issues and sex issues.

Gender isn't about who you sleep with, which kinks and fetishes you have, or even what clothes you wear. Sexuality isn't about whether you are male or female.

The thing about gender is that it is not something that you can conceal without hurting yourself. Changing your physical appearance through medical procedures isn't about comfort, as you suggest, it's about psychological wellbeing. I sincerely doubt that the procedures one goes through to change their appearance are "comfortable."

People are brought up being told things like "This is what boys wear" or "this is what a female looks like" and when you know you're not in the right category, you want to become what you know you should be.

Ustwo, you're pretty certain you're male, but if you woke up one morning and you were suddenly mostly hairless, soft cheekbones, had breasts and a vulva, and were mighty pretty, I have a feeling you'd still be certain that you were male.

docbungle

That would definitely throw someone for a loop, but obviously things don't work that way.

If a man feels as if he needs to be a woman, or feels as if he actually is a woman, then that man is confused. Nothing wrong with that, but when he decides to have "sexual reassignment surgery," as someone put it, that doesn't make him a woman. It makes him a confused man with altered body parts. He is still the same person he was. He is not a she.

Now I know every once in a while someone is born with visual sexual complications but that is not what we're talking about here.

If you want to be an aardvark, sniffing ants up your nose isn't going to do it for you. And if you want to be a woman....well, too bad; you're not a woman. Mutilating yourself might fool some people in regards to your appearance, but you are still the same man you always were. And will be for your entire life, surgery or not. You can do a lot of lying to yourself, but all the people you know, all the women you slept with, your brothers and sisters and your mother and father will all know you are a man who is confused.

And again, that's fine. But you shouldn't be allowed to go through that transformation in front of these school kids.

__________________
Bad Luck City

Ustwo

While I agree surgery like this doesn't make you a woman, I would say you are DEFINATELY not the same man you were.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

cellophanedeity

You may be the same person, but you'd be in the right body for you, even if other people disagreed with that.

And why shouldn't people learn about things like this in school? It's not too much more distracting than having a big (wide or tall) teacher, a teacher with a "funny" accent, a religous teacher, or a hot teacher, but it is educational.

A coworker told me that she wouldn't want her future children to talk to gay people incase they decided that gay people were okay. I have a feeling this is the same fear.

Marvelous Marv

I disagree. MacBeth is still a man-- albeit a dickless one. He's therefore a cross-dresser.

P.S. Did I overlook the poll where we decided which restroom Lady MacBeth will be using?

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Marvelous Marv

If he/she/it were a high school teacher, and he went to one of their football games dressed as the opposite sex (whatever that is), I have the strong feeling that his class might not get as much accomplished in the next few sessions.

The underlying principle is the same as what you said in the horsefucking thread-- some people have an extremely high tolerance of the "ick factor."

Although I admit that Stan and Cartman seem to have adapted to Mr. Hat quite well.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Ustwo

I don't think its a high 'ick' factor, its just a different 'ick' factor. I'm sure the threesomes I've had in my life would trigger other peoples 'ick' factor. I recall joking with a friend of mine years ago about how it wouldn't bother me if my GF had a girlfriend as well, and he thought of it as the same as having another boyfriend. We all have different ick factors.

What I do find someone interesting is the hypocrisy involved. There is a smug 'get over it' attitude for those whos ick factor includes what many would consider self mutilation, yet themselves defend their own 'ick' factor.

If a teacher decided to look like this......



Would that be any different than a sex change in terms of classroom distruption? If this is all about who you feel you are and how you need to express that, I don't think a huge leap is needed.

The other issue is you can't pick your teachers in the government school system. Its not as if parents have a choice unless they can afford private schools, in which case they pay double in property taxes and then private school tuition.

Really though, despite all the fuss, I find this to be most likely the least pressing issue to be delt with in government schools these days.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Marvelous Marv

Well, if he (?) teaches acupuncture or tattoo art ...

Which of course brings up the topic of vouchers, but that's probably better suited for Tilted Politics.

Nice illustration of your point, though.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Gilda

Except that for a transsexual, that's exactly how it feels. They have something profound inside them that tells them that their body is not the sex it is supposed to be. Her mind is already female.

Sexual reassignment surgery is the standard terminology, primarily because it is accompanied by a legal change of sex. We are assigned a sex at birth based on a visual inspection of our genitals, and SRS changes that assignment to reflect the new genitals. GRS, or genital reconstruction surgery is another common term, but SRS is the most common.

If someone starts with a female mind and male body, then alters that body to a female form, that person then has a female mind and a morphically female body. That is what we call a woman.

You're correct. Ambiguous or abnormal physical sexual characteristics disqualify one from being classified as transsexual. One of the prerequisites is that the transsexual have normal primary sexual characteristics.

How do you define what makes a person a man? That's the unstated assumption all of your statements are based upon, and it isn't exactly clear what that basis is. Is it genetics, birth assignment, primary sexual characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, mental compositon, or something else?

SRS is not mutilation. It used to be, it used to leave a mutilated mess that resembled no human set of genitals, but it's been a long time since that was true. Modern SRS techniques routinely produce genitals that are indistiguishable from biological ones in appearance and sexual function, at least for MTF surgery from a competent surgeon, of which there are many.

If a person feels female in that person's mind, has a body that is in appearance and function female, is legally and socially female, is treated by others as female, doesn't it make more sense to refer to that person as a female and not a male?

You are factually wrong here. It is not a matter of opinion or interpretation, you are just factually absolutely wrong.

She didn't. She went through it on a surgeon's table, most likely in Bankok, Thailand, far, far away from the kids.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

spindles

Firstly, I'm not saying the guy pictured isn't a freak

but I have to say that this example (above) is completely different from the original question. If a well respected teacher was to disappear during summer holidays and return to work with face tattoos and piercings could the school dismiss them? And if so, why?

Further, how much tattooing is too much? how many piercings? where do you draw the line?

They are the same teacher, aren't they?

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who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

Gilda

Why would there be a poll? She'll use the almost certainly use the ladies room. It can be a difficult choice early on for younger and middle-aged MTF's, but I doubt anyone wil blink an eye.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

ubertuber

Actually, it's quite different. That guy (?? I'm really not 100% sure, sorry) is modifying his appearance to stick out of societal norms. This 70 year old teacher is undergoing modification to try to fit into societal norms. When you're evaluating whether a "classroom disruption" is justified, I think that makes a world of difference.


That's reassuring, because it means that the people posting so prolifically to this thread aren't so far apart...

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Gilda

There's a whole lot more to the sexual reassignment process than just SRS, and the surgery is generally the last step in the process. Exceptions are made in expedient circumstances such as extreme age.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Darn it. You came here and said what I wanted to say, but better and using less words and stuff. Well done.

Here's one example. Take a fine tipped sewing pin, and heat up up, stick it into your face and hold it there while you run heat and electricity through it for between seven and twenty seconds. Sounds' like it would hurt, doesn't it? Now have this done some 20-50,000 times over a period of one to three years. Electrolysis to remove the beard is one of the most painful and expensive parts of the process.

Take it a bit further, and have this done on the shaft of the penis, around the base of the penis to clear about an inch of space, and a strip half an inch wide going down the center of the scrotum to the perenium. Doesn't take nearly as long, but it turns the pain factor way, way up.

Exactly.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Sure it is. That person is a freak. I say that without malice, because it's pretty clear to me that he's decided that's what he wants to be, so I seriously doubt that it would be considered an insult.

An MTF isn't trying to stand out, in most cases, but to fit in. It's exactly the opposite impulse and desire.

Often, you can. If there are multiple teachers at a grade level, it isn't unusual for schools to honor a parent's request for a certain teacher.

Also, remember that this is a substitute. She's going to be there one day, not the everyday teacher.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

cellophanedeity

I'm glad I said it properly, Gilda.

Ustwo

Both feel most happy apparently in their respective mutilated states.

YOU have decided that having a need to have your penis 'altered' and your testicles removed is different than this guys desire to be a human pin cushion.

I see no difference they both felt that disfiguring themselves was what was best for them.

After all who are YOU to judge?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Gilda

When I Was A Boy

I won't forget when Peter Pan came to my house, took my hand
I said I was a boy, I'm glad he didn't check.
I learned to fly, I learned to fight, I lived a whole life in one night
We saved each other's lives out on the pirate's deck.
And I remember that night when I'm leaving a late night with some friends
And I hear somebody tell me it's not safe, someone should help me
I need to find a nice man to walk me home.
When I was a boy, I scared the pants off of my mom,
Climbed what I could climbup on
And I don't know how I survived, I guess I knew the tricks that all the boys knew
And you could walk me home, but I was a boy, too.

I was a kid that you would like, just a small boy on her bike
Riding topless, yeah I never cared who saw.
My neighbor came outside to say, "Get your shirt," I said "No way
It's the last time, I'm not breaking any law."
And now I'm in a clothing store, and the signs say Less is More
More that's tight means more to see, more for them, not more for me
That can't help me climb a tree in ten seconds flat
When I was a boy, see that picture? That was me
Grass stained shirt and dusty knees.
And I know things have gotta change,
They got pills to sell, they've got implants to put in, they've got implants to remove
But I am not forgetting
That I was a boy too.

And like the woods where I would creep, it's a secret I can keep
Except when I'm tired, except when I'm being caught off guard.
I've had a lonesome awful day, the conversation finds it's way
To catchng fireflies out in the backyard
And I tell the man I'm with about the other life I lived
And I say now you're top gun, I have lost and you have won
And he says "Oh no, oh, no, can't you see
When I was a girl, my mom and I, we always talked
And I picked flowers everywhere that I walked
And I could always cry, now even when I'm alone I seldom do
And I have lost some kindness,
But I was a girl too.
And you were just like me, and I was just like you."

Dar Williams

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

Nope. An MTF feels most unhappy in her mutilated state, and that's why she has surgery to correct that.

Need is different than desire. The latter is a choice, the former, not so much.

Nope. SRS does not leave the patient disfigured, and no MTF feels she is disfiguring herself by having the surgery, at least none of those I've met.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

ubertuber

I don't think you're responding to what you quoted. I wrote about the difference between fitting into and not fitting into societal norms. I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Also, it's probably a bad idea to try to pin the relativist label on me, as it won't fit... FYI

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

docbungle

How do you define what makes a thumb a thumb? It is what it is. If you cut it off and sew it onto your forehead, it does not become a surgically modified forehead apparatus; it is still a thumb. And it is sticking out of your forehead. And just because the majority of society does not accept this as normal does not mean they have hateful or even harmful views.


How a person feels about themselves does not define their gender. I wish I was a midget. But cutting off my legs won't make me into one. No matter what I tell myself. ("From the moment he was born...he always thought he should have been shorter. Finally, at age 71, he decided to take matters into his own hands... ") It will just make me a confused man who decided to have his legs cut off.

You are factually wrong here. It absolutely IS a matter of opinion and interpretation. Which is why we are having this discussion. Or did you write the book?


Semantics.

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Bad Luck City

Marvelous Marv

And if the female teachers in the school are uncomfortable with that arrangement, I'm sure it's "their problem," not MacBeth's.


It's been said many times, many ways, but our president's assessment is as good as any:

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Ustwo

You gave motives to each, you claimed one was trying to shock and another was trying to fit in.

Yet both make them happy and both are shocking to the 'norm'.

You decided which was right and which was wrong based on your own values you decided it was ok for one and not the other.

Are you superior to a mother who doesn't want a transexual teaching her children?

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Gilda

"It is what it is" isn't a definition. What is it that makes a man a man and not a woman? You seem to think this is obvious, but I truly don't see what criteria you're using. Chromosomes, primary sexual characteristics, secondary sexual characteristics, behavior, mode of presentation, mental state? I think it's a complex combination of all of those, and it depends greatly upon the manner in which we interact with a person what criteria become most important.

Actually, that's pretty good definition of gender. What you're thinking of is sex, the physical aspect, and you're right that how you feel inside doesn't define you physical sex. Your internal sense of being male or female is your gender identity.

I was responding directly to this with that statment:

"You can do a lot of lying to yourself, but all the people you know, all the women you slept with, your brothers and sisters and your mother and father will all know you are a man who is confused."

I know for a fact that this statement is incorrect. It isn't a matter of debate or discussion, it is just demonstrably wrong on its face.

Semantics matter, especially in a semantic discussion. What part of her transition is she going through in front of the students she'll see for a day as an elementary school substitute?

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

Gilda

No, bathrooms do become a sticky issue precisely because of the perception issues involved. At schools it's less of an issue. Every school I've ever worked at or visited as a supervisor has had single occupancy restrooms, sometimes unisex, and sometimes gendered. With such a restroom, it makes little difference, as you don't have two people sharing at any time anyway.

Gilda

__________________
I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that.

~Steven Colbert

ubertuber

Ok - I suppose I could have been clearer. I wasn't intending to describe motives (though in retrospect it certainly could have been read that way), I was describing effects. In that light, I stand by my assessment of your body modification specialist as a completely unrealistic comparison. However, it is worth saying that even with this point I am discussing on your terms, not mine. My personal belief is that societal norm is a completely subjective term that has limited benefit - particularly when weighed against concerns of sexual or sexual identity discrimination (please read on before reacting to that).

I suspect you know that superiority has nothing to do with the issue. Legality is much more applicable. In that spirit, I'll direct you to some snippets I found on Work Place Fairness. You and I both know that parents want all sorts of things, to the point of attempting to impose their will on curricular and legal matters. They don't always get their way, and rightly so. I believe I've seen post disparagingly towards this idea of parental sovereignty in the classroom in the past (please see this thread for a quick example)

(emphasis mine)

The inclusion of New Jersey is relevant, as that is where this particular case is coming up.

I wonder if you'll satisfy my curiosity on something Ustwo. Are you playing the part of the gadfly or devil's advocate here? I just have to ask because I've seen you switch tacks several times in this thread, and each position is accompanied by examples that are seemingly chosen for their shock value. I'd still happily discuss with you, but I'm genuinely curious as to where you are coming from...

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Ustwo

Whats the difference?

My position doesn't really matter here as I am sympathetic to both sides. I can empathize with someone who has something so fundamentally wrong with them that they find the only relief in radical surgery. I can also empathize with a mother who would rather someone with such fundamental issues not be teaching her children.

What does wrankle me a bit is the seeming hypocrisy some exhibit in this and even the 'horse fucking' thread.

I accept THESE sexual oddities and you should to or you are a bigot, but THOSE other ones are wrong.

I level this as a general charge as I don't see a need to pick people out.

My point is if you have a limit as to what is acceptable, you (and I'm using the imperial you, not you specifically) should have a bit more empathy for those who perhaps have different limits.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Strange Famous

Well, I hope Im not leadin the conversation of course, and Im not a moderator on this site and I dont expect I ever will be, but I think many people will find it hard to understand how the stated ethos of this site is compatible with the describtion of gender change as an "oddity", or the clearly intended comparison between transexuals and people fucking horses.

I just dont understand really people's need to judge all the time... if someone feels they are a woman in a man's body, or vica verca, why feel the need to describe this as mental illness... we have scientific technique's capable of making such a person feel happier in their skin - for what reason is there to condemn them? Who else does it hurt?

I dont think I should be ashamed for a child of mine to learn that some women want to be men, or men want to be women... I dont see it at all as a corruption, and the parents who complain stike me as ridiculous. If they have a sensible moral point, I havent heard it. If they want to tell me that their bible says it is forbidden, I can only say that I will not listen to a Christian quote Leviticus at me while they eat shellfish and celebrate their conception of God with a roasted ham.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

splck

That sums up my thoughts on this rather well.

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nice line eh?

docbungle

and then



No one is comparing transexuals and people fucking horses. What was being compared was the hypocrisy, in both this thread and that one. That was clearly stated.

Are you implying that those of us who find sex changes to be "odd" be modified from saying such in this discussion? I think that would be more against the stated ethos of this site.

No one is condemning them. Just implying a bit of confusion and oddness.

Being sensible has never been the backbone for people's morals. That goes for people on both sides of this issue and many others.

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Bad Luck City

Marvelous Marv

[Threadjack] I doubt that you would have admitted bathrooms are a "sticky issue" in a discussion about gays in the military, since the lack of privacy (and bathrooms) in the field is precisely why it's a problem.

[/Threadjack]

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Marvelous Marv

So if I feel inside that I'm a sex god, will that be my identity?

Please hurry with your answer, because I may want to skip my house payment and move to Hollywood.

Edit: Okay, some of the humor-impaired aren't going to like that, so I'll add more.

If the individual pictured says he a leopard, is he a leopard, or a man who wants to look like a leopard? What if he feels inside that he's a leopard?

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Astrocloud

My point was that someone who is disfigured shouldn't be discriminated against. NOT because the schools would get sued but rather because it shouldn't matter what you look like.

The same goes for punk rock haircuts. We need more punk rock teachers.

Astrocloud

Let's face it. If he wants to teach kids -why shouldn't he teach kids? Because he looks different? Go back to what I said about a disfigured person.

trickyy

i thought we were talking about who should teach our kids, not just teach?
i don't care who they let teach, but i doubt i'd enroll my kids at leopard man's school.

Astrocloud

What if leopard man wasn't leopard man but rather someone deformed by an accident. Like Anakin here:

(Yes, I know it's a movie. Pretend he's a real man burned in a real lightsaber fight)

He would still be freaky looking -like leopardman; but should he be allowed to teach?

...And before you say something like "the schools will be sued if we don't let this handicapped-burned guy teach".I'm talking about "in principle" meaning that is it right?

I suppose that at some point we should allow the schools to teach that people are not all cookie cutter versions of one another.

Gilda

You're wrong.

Also, I'm not sure if I've shared this here before, but I'm openly lesbian, and I've never heard a single objection from another woman to my using the same restroom as the straight girls.

Gilda

Marvelous Marv

That's not what I asked, and you know it.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

Astrocloud

I'm keeping on topic. You are not. (and you know it)