Do Christians feel welcome here?
 

(Not sure which forum this belongs in, so feel free to move it elsewhere, Mods.)

Last year I started a thread titled, "Do gays feel welcome here?" in an attempt to gauge whether or not that segment of the population felt that the TFP was as welcoming and tolerant a place as we all tout it to be. Or rather, whether the TFP was actually more representative of a certain segment of the population, and not *as* welcoming to those outside of it.

I am starting this thread with a similar curiousity: whether or not Christians feel comfortable here... evangelical (Protestant) Christians in particular. This is inspired by recent exchanges with TFP member Pastor Tim. In the Danish Cartoon forum, he posted as part of a reply to me:

Personally, I try not to attack anyone personally on TFP (and I think the mods would be all over me if I did :) ), though sometimes I know I fail in distinguishing the person from the ideology. But I think that for the most part, this place IS an open forum, and that most points of view are given a fair chance for intelligent, demanding discussion. That is the value of TFP for me. I think the TFP certainly has its dark sides, just like any other community of humans... but to me, the intelligence, experience, empathy, and candor of most members outweighs any degree of intolerance/rudeness that gets tossed around here at times.

However, it has been a while since I was an evangelical Christian, and many of my related sensitivities (of the sort Pastor Tim mentions) have long since worn off. I suppose my sensitivities now run in the other direction, to question anything that comes across as overtly religious language and to get to know the real person behind those statements. This holds true for people of any background, including Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, what-have-you. I want to know who you ARE, not what you believe. Or at least, to know what conditions formed your ideologies (which we all have, religious or otherwise).

So, that's where I'm coming from. I am certainly not anti-Christian, seeing as I still very much respect the lifestyle choices of the evangelical friends that I spent most of my formative years with. I don't agree with everything they do, but I do not hold their beliefs and practices against them; they do what they believe is right, and I can't say I am doing any better than that.

But is the TFP anti-Judeo-Christian? I would like to hear from other members on this, as well as Pastor Tim, of course. (We could even address the question of whether Muslims feel welcome here, or Buddhists, or anyone else... but let's start with Christians for now.)

well, i'll say this...

i feel less at home on account of orientation than i do because of religious affiliation.

the anti-christian rhetoric has been somewhat heated at times, but nobody's made the comparision between Christianity and fucking a horse...where as that was the analogy to queer idenity just a week or so ago.

i don't know if that answers your question, but that's what i see of it.

as a republican I can deinfately sense some hostility (theres seems to be a bit of a lefward lean on here), and considering that a lot of conservative ideals are christian ones, I'd say it's a less than stellar welcome.

But I don't believe in that stuff, so I don't really know.

I'm far from Evangelical, born and raised as a roman catholic, went to catholic grade school and high school, but I like to think for myself and I have some issues with Dogma. That being said, I personally feel many here thumb their nose at Christians: Being a person that frequents the politics forums, many contentious issues are brought up due to the parlence of our times; it is stiffling and often times angering the level of ignorance that I see. Many people are serious misinformed or flat out, again the word ignorant, of the christian faith. Whether it is on the political issues past and present, read Pope Pius or the oft referred to but hysterical false statements surrounding the near millenia past crusades, or even current sentiments.

Way I see is, by and large this is a forum of something that would probably considered "progressive" thought; I constantly feel judged, and often insulted by comments levied and sentiments held (which admittedly would be tough to read over a medium of the internet, but I'm not some daft soak, its not tough to read where people are coming from nor where they are going).

In a blatant immediate sense no I do not feel unwelcomed, but as a Christian here I do often feel insulted. Then again I'm not evangelical, nor am I fiery defender of my mothers faith, I like to find out things for myself, so I try not to take offense, but still I find myself constantly frustrated at posts made and sentiments held.

I think in general that TFP is a very open and accepting place to views on every topic on every end of the spectrum. But as you said, nothing is perfect. Are there some here who are open to discussions about/using/involving a Christian (specifically Judeo-Christian as you mentioned) worldview? Of course. Are there some who will have a strongly negative attitue towards it regardless of any good points being made, or simply ignore it? Of course. Like any large community of diverse people there are going to be diverse opinions, and some more strong than others.

There is the fact that this is a board that is for adults only and has adult content. Now this isn't the sole focus of the board, but it is present. It could be a factor that might keep those with more conservative worldviews away, but I don't believe it's forced down anyone throats that in order to be a member here one must love porn and obsess over sex. :p For the most part it is restricted to certain forums which one could easily choose to ignore if they didn't want to take part in it. So I think it's very possible to still be active on the forum without participating in the more "adult" features.

So, yes, there are obstecles such as adult themes and potential negativity from other members that a Christian who holds a more conservative Judeo-Christian worldview might have to overcome. But I think if they were willing to get past these things, they could have a very rewarding and comfortable membership here.

As for myself, I grew up in an *incredibly* conservative Protestant family. I'm currently a Religious Studies minor and I'm always seeking to learn more about spirituality and to futher my personal gorwth in that area. As such I am now considerably more liberal than anyone in my family, but I still consider myself highly spiritual/religious depending on how you define it. There are discussions here which challenge you to really look at what you believe and why and I think those discussions would be equally meaningful to someone who is on the conservative end of religious thought.

As a Christian, I have at times felt dismissed because of my beliefs--but that is equally true of the world beyond TFP. I've never felt judged, though. Personally, I believe that to be spiritual is to constantly struggle to define and explain one's self. The struggle, in the end, is worth it, even in the face of detractors and critics.

Most of the people I respect around here have a "live and let live" approach to faith; it is something we share. Those who would dismiss me are not worthy of my concern, and therefore I continue to feel welcome here.

Speaking from the point of view of someone who was once very, very much a Southern Baptist...

I feel like, as has been stated, that if there was anyone on TFP that was very Christian, they would soon find that they are not in like-minded company. As, in my upbringing, I was taught that Christians were to associate and seek out others who shared the same faith in the understanding that associating with those of like mind would stregnthen the faith of everyone, I doubt that they'd be around long.

I admit, when I read Pastor Tim's first post I did a little eye-rolling. In my expierence, I have encountered about five outspoken Christians in my lifetime that didn't make me want to respond to their lifestyle with a quick right hook. However, Pastor Tim is the kind of person I wish every Christian could be- very calm, collected, and secure in his spirituality, and willing to meet other people's viewpoints with an open mind. He has earned my respect, and I gladly welcome him and his point of view to this community.

However, most Christians (including my own mother) are *very* outspoken and blindly follow their own ideas about the tenants of their faith. This leads to some heated, feverish, soapbox-style supporting of their point of view to the exclusion of everyone else. As I believe that the TFP supports open mindedness, this kind of mentality would not be welcomed on the boards. However, if this kind of close-mindedness was shown by any member, regardless of sex/sexual preference/religion/etc, it would not be tolerated. Therefore, I think TFP is welcoming of EVERYONE, provided they show themselves to be willing to listen to what others have to say and treat the other members of the board with respect.

I would like to see more people with the conviction and solidarity in their own spirituality like Pastor Tim. Hearning the opnions and viewpoints of a myriad of people makes me a better person. I will not brush off a Christian's opnion simply because it is a doctrine to which I no longer hold- I will, however, find that person's arguments at fault if they fail to respect my own point of view at the same time.

Keep it up, Pastor Tim... you'll never know how much I wish my mother was like you....

TFP is generally a welcoming place, but often all christians are lumped in with the loud-mouth evangelicals. I suppose its not too different then how muslims are often lumped together with their fanatics, though. I'm not really bothered.

I've generally felt welcome, personally, but I've seen some pretty offensive things from time to time over in the Philosophy forum (and I'm pretty thick-skinned). Most people here are understanding of people with different worldviews, even Christians, but some people obviously have a chip on their shoulder regarding religion.

I've appreciated Pastor Tim's participation greatly. I wish he would post more. I'm a Christian, albeit not evangelical. Inevitably, whenever a thread is started about Christian philosophies, some genius will drop intothe middle of it to denounce all of the fools for believing in a sky God. It's always a disappointment when it's a poster who I usually agree with on other issues. I don't knock your books out of your hands after your junior college class in philosophy.

I don't understand why Christians are getting away with playing victims these days. They have at least a 75% majority in the country and control all the major parts of government and private indusrty. How are Christians being victimized?

Well of course this place is (generally) hostile and disrespectful to Christians. It's a no-brainer. Even in this thread there are statements that are based on stereotyping and "christophobia," :rolleyes: if you will. Shall I cry and become a whinning victim over it? NO WAY. I'm a big boy who likes to play big boy games. Jesus teaches me this: I should and will be challenged. Why shouldn't I be stereotyped and dismissed? I say bring it on. Do I have some special rights not to be insulted or offended? Well of course not. Jesus teaches me that adversity brings strength.

I call myself an agnostic Christian. I don't know that the Bible stories are true; I don't know much that it matters. It's the teachings and examples that I follow, more of the New Testament than the Old.

Religious worship and practice puts my mind and soul in a place where it's good for it to be. And whether it's put there by the Holy Spirit or simply by the very nature of people gathering together to worship and celebrate sand reinforce the Good, I don't much care. I do belong to a fairly liberal church, one that believes in our responsibility to make the world a better place here and now, rather than waiting for Jesus to come back and take care of it all for us. I believe that we were intended through Christianity to try to be more like Jesus, not simply to come to him with all our troubles. In doing so, we make the world a better place. I do not believe that the world is by nature evil and thus unredeemable by humans alone; that's a cop-out. Even if it were true, we should try. Otherwise, what are we here for?

Given all that, I feel fairly well at home on the TFP. Since I hold to principles rather than dogma, criticisms of Christianity don't insult me. Christianity _should_ be criticized. It needs all the help it can get, and sitting back and taking somebody else's interpretation of Christianity as gospel _is not help._ In my opinion, Christians should question and explore, just as just about everyone here does. There are of course branches of Christianity that don't encourage that kind of thinking.

In that sense, I'm not what everybody thinks of these days as a Christian; but there are a great many like me around. We just don't have the funding :-), or the attention of the media. Moreover, a lot of people who think like us tend to have an aversion to Christianity, I suppose through bad experiences in their youth. Perhaps they were told to "shut up and believe" once too often, or saw friends and family member profess one thing at church but do something wildly different at home. These are problems with religions the world over.

I personally have had some discussions and disagreements with Pastor Tim. Consider them family arguments -- perhaps more passionate than those between strangers. I hope he doesn't take offense, and understands that I honor his Christianity. And I certainly hope that he honors mine. If not: we can discuss it! :-)

It's "in" to put down christians these days. After all we are all loud mouthed evangelical homophobes. And your majority comment has zero bearing on the situation as the vast majority of christians are your average joes/janes trying to live their lives, yet they get knocked by an insanely loud and rabid minority.

Um, sorry but TFP is not all United States, there's Canada, UK, etc etc where Christian are not even a majority.

I would feel that Christians are very welcoming here compariable to other religious groups of the world such as Muslims. Personally, I'm not so welcoming of Muslims because of their inability to tolerance our expression of idea and freedom as much as Catholics and Christians can tolerate it.

In my leadership development lecture today, we have a muslim guy arguing every word of the definition of morality, ethics and integrity on the basis of what his beliefs and religion demands of him. That is a very ignorance arguement, valid but stupid in this part of the world.

Some people are just oversensative period, and they will whine about it and get defensive. If you are in a minority opinion here you need to develope a thick skin or you will feel unwelcome.

If you are a Christian and use that as a basis for your debates you better be willing to accept that there are those of us here who will not accept 'gods word' as logical debate.

much of the discussion on TFP is antithetical to the Christian worldview... but such words rarely come across as antagonistic. we christians have to compete in the world of ideas just like everyone else. opposing ideas do not bother me when expressed for their own sake.

the bulk of distinctly anti-christian comments come from ignorance. many people assume that by virtue of living in the western hemisphere they know what christianity is all about. passing a church on your way to work, watching 5 minutes of the 700 Club while channel surfing, or memories of childhood sunday-school do not make you an expert on christianity as a faith. if that is your extent of personal contact with christianity... you're probably not qualified to engage in serious discussion about the faith as Christians experience it. discussions of Christianity are welcomed by this poster, i just wish each TFP member would re-examine their acquaintance with the subject.

to answer your question directly: i do feel welcome here. TFP is the only online community that i've stuck with for more than a few months. you guys are great.

I am a christian. I think that a lot of christians walk around with a chip on their shoulders and are easily offended. I think it's a tactic to gain ground in some way. After all you can't point out their shortcomings -if you can't offend them.

Really? Wow.. I might have to move to Canada.

All joking aside, I don't see why Christianity, or any other religion, would feel unwelcome here. However, TFP's ideal is "The Evolution of Humanity, Sexuality, and Philosophy." With that in mind, many conservative and/or religious ideals are about the preservation or stagnation of one belief about humanity, not the evolution/integration of those beliefs into modern day. When someone mentions that they Love Christ or that they're Christian, I don't look at them any differently than someone who says cows are holy and should not be consecrated. It is simply a belief and it likely has no relevance to the conversation at hand, other than knowing the person better.

In the context of the "real world," preservation and stagnation of society are good things -- they keep rules and laws in order. So, in "real life," religious and conservative people will always enjoy a majority. However, I think if any forum or discussion where ideals are abstracted from reality, liberalism will reign, while conservatism and religious rulesets will be less dominant. In abstracted situations, people feel more comfortable discussing the "what-ifs" and perhaps evaluating and re-evaluating their success strategies in life. When they return to the "real-world," the necessity for keeping things as they are for successful functioning (as it was) is necessary.

In short, this does not mean that Christians shouldn't feel welcome.. such is just the nature of the beast; free discussion promotes liberal (or radical) thought, whereas "work" promotes conservative thought. No one likes someone questioning how things have been done for 20 years WHILE it's happening, as that degrades the quality of the product of the labour. In this sense, conservatism rules. However, in the "free time," "discussion time" or "lunch break," more discussion about how things are done and if they're valid (liberal thought) begins to prevail instead. It's simply a matter of context, and I don't think its an phenomenon exclusive to TFP.

I don't think TFP is any different then anywhere else in this respect. Many non-Christians look down on Christians because of a vocal minority. It is unfortunate but it is expected. Jesus even said we should expect that. It is unfortunate that a minority of people can tarnish the image of the whole group. What many non-Christians fail to reliaze is the difference between the vocal minority and the mainstream Christians. It is also interesting how much people push against Christianity. I'm wondering if I notice this just because I live in a country where Christianity is the majority. Does anyone on this forum have experience with other countries and Islam, Buddism, or Hinduism? In countries that are predominatly those religions do the local populations attack those religions for their beliefs?

Anyway, i'm pretty much used to getting ridiculed for my beliefs despite the fact that I never try to impose them on others. What I don't understand is why athiests care what I believe as long as I don't try to push my beliefs on them? What reasons do they have for trying to prove Christians wrong?

The only thing that ever bothers me is when someone assumes i'm an idiot who has been brain washed because I believe in Jesus and the bible. I have done lots of research into it, I have a very scientific mind, and I have come to the conclusion that 1) Jesus existed, 2) The new testiment is a very accurate historical document (one of the most accurate histories books we have from those time periods), and 3) Jesus is who he claimed to be.

For anyone who is interested in the historical accuracy of the new testement you should try reading "Case for Christ" the author is an award winning journalist who interviews many scholors and compares the new testament to other historical documents and methodically goes through what evidence we have.

Rodney's post bears repeating, at least to better express my own thoughts. We have a lot in common! :)

To be clear (perhaps I was not, in my OP), I could probably be classified, if need be, as an agnostic-Christian-Buddhist, with some transcendentalist (or is that Unitarian these days?) flavorings. I know that to the average evangelical, this combination is anathema; if one does not forswear to belong only to Christ and none other, than one cannot be called a Christian. I respect that distinction, so maybe I am not a Christian at all--that is okay with me. I don't much need labels of that sort, anymore.

Let me also clarify: I spent my formative years deeply embedded in the evangelical mainstream. My BA is from an evangelical university, where I engaged myself very much with the values of the community and the examination of scripture and creed. As it stands, while I have chosen to depart from a strict adherance to those beliefs and that community, I respect those who continue to choose that lifestyle. And I want to engage those members of TFP who choose that lifestyle, just as I hope to engage any member of TFP who have chosen other lifestyles. Personally, I find the TFP community to be an almost-adequate replacement for the community I thrived in as an evangelical... this place is amazing. :thumbsup:

I like what Rodney said about these being "family arguments," however... because I once considered myself at home in Christianity, and made it my business to know that house inside and out. I am no stranger to it, which perhaps makes my comments seem more antagonistic than others. But it is not out of hostility that I make these comments; it is out of a desire to truly challenge others from the perspective of one who has "been there," and been there deeply. And I am certainly open to being challenged in return, though honestly, I am not sure if there is anything new under the sun in these discussions... but I am open to it, if so.

Maybe this was a bit abstract, but I thought I should clarify my own position.

And thank you for all your responses, so far. I am learning a lot about individual members here. :)

I completely agree. Some people like to be offended. Some people live for it. Some people love to play the 'oh, poor me' card. Now I'm not saying all religious folks are like that, but religion just seems to draw an inordinate amount of people like this to the flock.

I'm also not saying there isn't an anti-Christian vibe here sometimes. I think most of it is inadvertent and not a whole lot worse than the the anti- liberal/smoker/fat/whatever stuff that gets bantered about, but some of it...well, it's there. Now I think the mods do an excellent job of keeping the overtly offensive stuff of the boards, but you can't censor everything that might offend or the boards would look like some declassified 'Top Secret' report, but they get most of the outrageously ridiculous stuff.

I lean towards no religion or belief.
I find it inconceivable that a higher being could exist, such as "god".
And I find it foolish to blindly lead your life according to what some book says or how some pastor interprets it.

That being said, I have many family members who are deeply religious, many friends who are just as such. About half are Christian, the rest are other religions. A number of them are not American. This in essence is no different then on the TFP, the fact that I share so little views with them when it comes to spirituality and religion doesn’t mean we won’t get along. To shun a person away because of what they feel and think goes against everything this forum is meant to be about. People will always disagree with each other, and to expect perfect harmony is just foolish.

As long as both parties are able to keep their cool and act like adults there is no reason why any one person will feel unwelcome. Now, just for example, my aunt is a extremely Christian devoted women, to the point that she will get offended if you do not agree with her views. This community is so large, we are bound to have a number of those people, and they are going to speak their mind. Those are the very people who will stand out and you will remember them, and sadly they might influence the overall stereotype we all naturally apply to groups of people (The TFP in this case).

Where did the absurd notion come from that somehow people have a right NOT to be offended? This is a totalitarian notion that is antithetical to western liberal democracy and to Christianity (to get back on topic). This "freedom from offense" fiction is a slippery slope that demands ever increasing restrictions on free speech and free thought. Christians have nothing to fear from ideological competition and debate. We should fear, however, those who use their twisted logic to find "new" rights for favored groups.

I think the TFP on the whole is a pretty accepting community compared to the world at large - religion or otherwise.

That doesn't mean I haven't seen hypocrisy and judgment from people who claim those things are wrong. Some cognitive dissonance, if you will. Heck, I think I've posted about two instances this week on that topic.

Thus far, this has been a very interesting, invigorating and thought-provoking thread. I will do so more reading and thinking here, but perhaps I won't post again. But Abaya was very kind to start it. Thank-you, and thanks to all for the thoughts. They all have a place.

Pastor Tim
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

So you would also be against literature? I live my life based on the books of Sinclair Lewis and select others. Am I a fool?

If you said you would be foolish to lead your life according to what some book says, I would agree with you. You should live your life by the means you see fit. The fact that you find it foolish essentially dismisses a philosophy and belief and its followers as fools.

The rest of your post describes very nicely how you co-exist with religious people and how you are tolerant even when they seem not to be. But the fact is, even when Christianity is mildly broached on TFP, somebody will join the thread to say what you said at the beginning of your post.

Example here

I ignore those posts and I don't really find them menacing or unwelcome. I just find it dis-heartening that somebody can post really interesting insights on say, cars or movies or music, but then blindly dismiss Christians as fools.

As someone who is new around here I would have to say it has some Christian abhor to it.

The forum has the one of the most basic Christian principles, the loving of all. But, it seems that if I went into the sexuality page and gave some advice and used the Bible in my reply I would probably be kicked for flaming. (sex is good but it should be reserved for marrige) This goes for any posting I could make in any of the different subsections. My religion is a very large part of me, and it makes me who I am today.

But, I do find it ironic that many who are not religous assume that this is a friendly place toward Christians. It will truely be a welcoming place when I can come and make a thread about Jesus and who he is and why he came here without being attacked for "pushing my religion on everyone." I would love for that to happen one day, and as for me; (and I assume most of you) I would never attack someone of another faith for telling people about it. This seems to only reserved for Christians.

Here is a quote for Christians who seem to think that being hateful towards others because of sin is God pleasing.

We are all sinners; making noone better than another

As a christian do I feel welcome? Yes, I do. That said, I see my opinions and beliefs both belittled and supported based entirely on my faith. Upon examining it, I can see that if I were atheist I could say the same thing. I think that TFP is a pretty good cross section of world society. Of course there are parts missing due to language and governement barriers but overall I think that if a person couldn't take the disagreement here it's safe to say they couldn't take it anywhere else.

I think the TFP is friendly for ALL who come. It doesn't matter what religion, race, sex or orientation you are, there are sets of open arms to all who come. Now, that does not mean that everyone will always get along and sing kumbaya(sp?) and dance merrily around the campfire. People have different opinions and different views on EVERYTHING.- Bear with me I'm getting to my point sometime-

Ok, now to where I'm trying to go (hopefully). I have no problem with people believing in something different than me or having an issue with what I believe in. The only time this can pose a problem is when one side states their belief as a FACT that this becomes dangerous. Christians can give the advice they want to give but they must note and respect when someone disagrees with their belief. I don't think it's a personal attack if someone says they don't believe the same thing -it's merely an observation. The same would go for the non-christian crowd. They need to accept that Christian ideals are going to be said on this board as long as there are christian members.

bigTex, I highly doubt you'd get kicked for "flaming" by merely stating your opinon on a matter. You may push the envelope, however, if you decree that your opinon is fact and it becomes a personal issue. I believe you could also make a thread about who you believe christ is and what he's done for you or whatever, but you have to accept the differing views of others. I personally would find no fault in you if you were to start such a thread.. however it would have to be of a discussionary nature not simply a sermon. (note this is purely my opinion, other mods may have different views of this)

Ok I didn't get everything I wanted say in there but my mind is wandering all over the place today.

Tim: I was hoping this thread would indeed help Christians to feel more welcome posting, or at least to be able to express their feelings about any hostility that they might feel. I hoped to begin a dialogue between those of faith and those who do not share that faith, here on TFP. So I am puzzled by your response.

If you are comfortable, can you say more about why you might not post again? (I guess that would require posting again, though... so no pressure. If you are uncomfortable, that is okay; but I do think we would all benefit from hearing what you have to say, if that is any encouragement to you.)

i would think that the only time anyone who identifies as christian would maybe feel alienated here would follow from a post or series of them that intertwine political and religious views in a way that to criticize the one is to criticize the other.

pastor tim's post to the danish cartoon thread was potentially one such moment--i wrote something that i deleted because i figured that the presentation of a political argument could only be construed as an attack on his religious committments--that because the views were tied directly to his position as preacher and there was no way to split the two apart. it seemed to me a situational thing, not systemic.

Destrox has almost completely described me. Where as I used to classify myself as a Christian [and still do from time to time to not bother with the gasps and the quick session conversion into why I should believe], I am really tired of all religion in general. All it ever leads to is a ridiculous amount of discussion to discuss things that were many years before your time short of biting somebody's head off b/c they do not believe AND raging "holy" wars that to this day still go on b/c of it. Christians being offended? Please...

Moreover, I get very pissed from time to time w/ the world I live in. No doubt in recent years thanks to our good friend George Bush Jr. But more ironically I have kept all these "chrisitan", "catholic" vows w/o even as so much reading the bible's entire script. I've read a little but I can't read the whole thing. The dictation is so... preachy. And even more ironically, is that the same people who were raised with those vows more strictly are the same murderers, rapists, pedophiles [catholic priests], serial killers [b/c god told them to], having sex and conceiving a child out of wedlock, etc sinners.

Are we to count the truth as an insult? I know my facts. As I know my beliefs and my rules I have set for myself:

• Never hit or abuse a woman EVER; unless there is no absolute alternative such as a split-second decision before you are about to be shot, stabbed, or otherwise severely injured by the woman - That is the only scenario where I could - even then I'd try to find another way... For women are too sacred to me.
• Never use drugs [short of being specific - it's safe to assume I don't use anything even liquor - which I consider to be a drug *shrug* I don't need it to have a good time]
• Never buy a gun - I believe my fists are enough to beat man's ass short of my will not to be beaten
• Respect your parents - this includes never cursing them out which I've seen countless times in this day and age. You can raise your voice at them however if your trying to make a point.
• To respect all walks of life and not take this Earth for granted - Too tired to elaborate
• Too tired to go on. There's probably a lot more, but I'm not planning on starting a bible anytime soon.

Anyway, I had a pleasant dream where all religion was banished and there were no wars and no one believed anything except what they wanted to; still not causing any debate. No 700 Club, no holy scriptures, no religious books, no religious charity trying to take your 5 cents a day and do god knows what with it... The paintings still existed. It was nice... so nice I wish I could have that dream once a month.

To wrap up, no, christians are not being dogged or singled out. I've never heard anyone once say "Go back to your reality and watch 7th Heaven!". Atheists though are going to be picked apart, chewed up, and spit out by hardcore christians. Moreover I dare any devout christian [who truly goes by the book] to visit Off The Wayside or The Full Monty. WAIT!!! You're seriously going in there? Don't! This is my formal warning - do NOT. I don't think you'd be open minded to that at all. Why not? Well... remember, you said you were a devout christian?

Sidebar:
Anyway, poppinjay, that is why I didn't want to post in here at all. Not b/c I didn't want any discussion about it or couldn't bear with any disagreement. But b/c you just jumped on Destrox for his figure of speech. It really is nothing to be offended by [like you said yourself, you ignore it] short of someone using a curse word on you. Turn foolish, into a unimaginable way of thinking. To listen to a book or another man who bases his beliefs from the book, does not make any sense to me. However like I said and you said, life should be lived according to your own intrepretation. Everybody has their own opinions.

Short of a Tilted Religion w/ multi-subsectional groups for every religion, I see no resolution - even that has the potential for individual heatedness. How do you think I feel about Congress being majority Republican? I just take it with some salt and know whatever they do they will never turn me or dishearten me. What disheartens me, is life and society itself. It speaks volumes about the respect and following for religion. I am truly disgusted with this world. I know it can't be perfect - I just wish it was a WHOLE lot more civilized. And no man or book can EVER dictate that...

Religion will never unify more people than it separates... And that includes the basic principle of tolerance for other religions. B/c one religion ALWAYS thinks it's right no matter if they cite TFOR [made it up, so sue me]. So therefore the rest have to be wrong by that thought???

If anyone is bound to get offended solely by my post alone and is basing their decision to post here again [like Tim], I strongly urge you not to base that on account of me. I do not "witch hunt" christians. In addition, I speak rarely about any such issues, political and religion included... I speak from the heart, personal experience, and what I see day in/day out.

I was born and raised Lutheran. I never even had a second thought about it until I was essentially an adult. Once I did put it under the microscope, I found that there was no logic behind it. It pained me to realize that, but it was for me to realize. My faith was hindered by knowledge, pure and simple. It still pains me to this day, but I can't simply throw my understandign to the wind for the promise of salvation from sin. Did Jesus die on the cross? Yep. Was Jesus the son of God? I don't know. The only proof is a very old and questionble text filled with great moral lessons.

That being said, I don't know how to feel about other christians. As someone who had no problems living with the various paradox and contradiction of christianity for two decades, I can certinally relate. I understand the feeling of community and connection that comes from the faith (not christianity pecifically but any faith). I also understand the comfort from believing in something as big and wonderful as God. The thought that there is in fact a true, perfect mind ruling over all of existence can really bring a sense of order to life. Having faith can be an excelent way to live your life, and I do not consider a life dedicated to God to be a wasted life, so long as one understands the teachings of their religion (as opposed to doing selish and greedy things in the name of God).

On the other hand, I have to wonder why more christians don't question their faith more. When you apply christianity, for example, to science, many things don't add up. So we are asked to have faith about them. The problem is that having faith in something is giving it your trust, and trust is earned. Should I simply trust God? I don't see how I could. I no longer see the rationale behind assuming that Jesus walked on water. How? Was the surface tension changed somehow? Was Jesus more boyant than the average human? Doubtful. More likely Jesus was a great man who was an excelent teacher for people who needed a path in life.

I had a battle in my mind between the young, imaginative, faithful child, and the scrutinizing, rationalizing, unfaithful adult. In the case of religion, the child is losing.

That being said, I do catch myself lashing out at christians from time to time. I say catch because I don't do it with the intention to offend or disrespect. In fact I respect a great many christians. So why do I occasioanlly lash out? It could be that I'm bitter over losing my religous innocense. It could be that I'm mad I didn't figure it out sooner. It could also be that I'm angry that I and so mnany others are probably being decieved.

I'm espically angry that people still choose to use religion as a tool or weapon to the detriment of other people. This is where a great deal of my religionism(?) comes from. Whenever I see Pat Robertson or Dr. James Dobson or other televangilists and listen carefully to their message, it seems like the focus is not on the foundation of the scripture - to love thy neighbor, to treat others with respect, to give to the needy, and the other wonderful lessons - but they insist on spreading dogma and fear so that those that follow them will follow blindly. Religous leaders shouldn't be involved in politics. In fact, there probably shouldn't be religous leaders at all.

If I have ever offended you, the reader, about anything, post back and let me know. If I am offended, I always shoot back and let someone know. If I'm wrong, I'll admit it, apologize and move on. This forum is about communication, and the only way to communicate on TFP is to post. Without the continued communication, this place loses all it's value.

I'm not a devout Christian. But I do believe there is a God and I do believe that he is the only path to the heaven that I believe in. Beyond that I am still examining my beliefs. I have found many discussions useful in examining the things I have been taught. I was raised a conservative northern Baptist.

I have found that the philosophy board is where I feel the most attacked. The attacks are not frequent or by many members. There have been a few occaisions where the tone of the attack was more or less "You're an idiot if you believe that." Also in MANY of the evolutionary discussions that I attempted to participate in years ago I found it useless to even bring up any facts that I found. Because- the response to facts that I found were to either deny their validity, or to ignore my comments and reiterate a previous complaint that creationists believe 'this bunk.'

As a result I don't waste my time contributing to any discussion in which ANY member decides to claim that a differing point of view is a result of a weak minded individual(which has been said more than once). I avoid discussions in which the member/s proclaim that any facts brought to the discussion that are intended to support my point of view are false without said members supporting their argument with fact. This has happened.

In other areas of the board, an expression of faith in God seems to be accepted without disparaging remarks.

I believe most religions in which fanatics make the headlines tend to get their egos worked up and down the block on any message board. Let's take muslims for example... that whole part of the world right now is eating itself alive and all of the people who are associated with it, but not a part of it are still gonna feel it. You could surround yourself with people who are just like you, but I find that to be embracing ignorance. Immerse yourself in diversity - you will find both solace and adversity. You will learn what makes other people tick so that you can understand yourself.

To me, there is a leveling force in the social world... it enforces that nobody is holy, because for every person who says they are, there are many people who say they aren't.

I know that I tend to react irrationally to religious ideas, so I won't respond rather than be unreasonable. But not everyone does refrain. Perhaps it's that religion is such a deeply personal thing. Consider this:

Go to the Politics forum, and pick almost any thread. What do you see? One, people attacking each other over their beliefs - political rather than religious, but beliefs nonetheness. It's not just religion - people defend their belief systems (whatever they may apply to) vehemently.

Two, inevitably, someone's political beliefs will be associated with close-minded religious views. That, I believe, is entirely due to the very public face of Christians and religion that is prevalent today. The few are representing the many, and those of us outside the group aren't liking those few... and making the mistake of thinking they're the many.

Maybe a Christian person, particularly an evangelical person, is more conservative than I in their social views. That doesn't mean I shouldn't learn from them, and why they believe what they believe. If nothing else, we could all do with a bit more foreign perspective.

- In my opinion and observation only -

In a way I think that no religious person will feel truly welcome or understood outside of their own community. This is partially because of the nature of religion and faith - we call adherents "believers in" or "followers of" a religion and not "convinced by" or "open to". If you are of a particular faith, the facts of your spirituality are really only the tip of the iceberg. If, on the other hand you are an outside observer, a religion is really just a collection of facts and practices - lacking the intensely personal aspects that make up faith. From that perspective, I don't know why I'd ever expect Christians to feel understood and appreciated in a Christian sort of way by non-believers. And people who are misunderstood often feel unwelcomed.

I think we've got an interesting cross-section of people here at TFP, including some people who are just not open to religions in general. This is in stark contrast to American culture (sorry non-Americans - I love you but you are outnumbered), where Christianity may not be a state religion, but enjoys a certain de facto authenticity. So I guess it is a strange thing to have a lot of people who consider something so personal as Christian faith to be nothing more than just another idea among many. It must be especially strange when the world around you treats your ethos as deserving some automatic respect... I don't think that this a wholely hostile environment to faithful people, but neither is it automatically accepting. I sincerely hope that doesn't translate to a feeling of unwelcome...

I would take issue that Christians control government (if they did, I suggest that we would not support Israel to such a great extent, and we would thereby incur less hatred from the middle east), nor do they come close to "controlling" Hollywood.

I can't recall who said it, maybe Spike Lee, but he stated publicly that one of his films would not get a best picture Oscar, because it was released in the same year as one about the Holocaust. He was right, too.

Support for Israel isn't a Christian priority? Historically, there have been extremely strong voices for Israel within Evangelic and fundamentalist Christianities...

I'm puzzled by your suggestion here...it makes very little sense to me. Several Christian groups are involved in funding Aliyah, the big hitters of the Christian Right are all vocally pro-Israel...

agreed, I thought that most christians supported Israel since it was god's land or whatever. That and any nation that is against Israel will fall in end times :shrug: (remember my parents were fundamentalist baptist so I heard all kinds of odd things)

/end jack

I think religion on this board is grudgingly tolerated. If it was a room full of people, anytime a western or middle eastern religon was brought up, it'd suddenly go quiet, and you'd hear people whispering to eachother. Definetly not a comfortable / welcoming place for anyone to speak out about their religious based believes. Which I find remotely ironic, because this board has a tendancy to automatically assume that an "open minded" lifestyle is automatically better than one based on faith.

What's the difference?

As for bigTex..

Give your opinion. It's just as valid as anyone elses, right? As long as there's a recognizable disconnect...

I mean, as long as you can offer advice on the problem at hand rather than automatically preaching from the pulpit, I can't imagine anyone would have a problem with that.

It's incredibly difficult to express the subtleties of language on a message board. It's incredibly difficult to convey the emotion and intent behind the message with just words...well, and the comparable smiley face, right.
----> :)

So, like I said, I imagine a lot of the offense is inadvertent.

Oh, I like this:

But this:
Are you saying that faith is closed-minded? Because being open-minded IS better than being closed-minded, if by "faith", you mean closed-minded. I don't see faith as being closed-minded, though. I'm a person of deep faith, but I am very open-minded. Faith != closed-minded.

On to the topic...

You can be deeply spiritual, a person of strong faith, and not be a loudmouth whackjob about it. Example: me.

What I see on the TFP, in the realm of "unwelcome", is when people of any faith, race, sexual orientation, etc., preach to others. Preaching comes in many, many forms. Some use their race/ethnicity as a tool in debate, some might invoke scripture during an argument, and others may insist there's a pervasive bias against those of certain sexual orientations, which they then insist makes everyone else's arguments wrong.

People who come for the exchange of free thought are welcome here. All people willing to respect each other and have reasonably friendly discourse are welcome here. This is not a place, however, to be championing your cause- whatever your cause may be. By that I mean, if that's what you do here- preaching to people about this or that, and always trying to push your information on others- you would likely be met with some measure of resistance.

Does that mean it's "unwelcome", or meets with "disapproval"... or is it more an expression of the desire for everyone here to get on without having others' idealogies shoved down their throats? No one, on any side, likes unprompted rhetoric- and it's in the expression of your opinions that you either take advantage of the wonderful opportunities for thoughtful, insightful, informational debate and conversations we can have here, or if you're just preaching rhetoric to people. It's not about what kind of material you present, it's in how you present it.

To think that being open minded is the best way to go, you first have to be closed minded enough to believe that open-mindedness is the best way to go. So it contradicts itself right from the get go.

I'm glad your reply to my argument makes no sense, because now I have nothing to say in return and can go do something else.

Thanks,

- analog.

I think on the whole, because TFP is SO massive and incorporates the entire world, that christians do get picked on sometimes.....I dont ever like being told I use god as a "crutch" etc, but I expect it in a place like this.

My god teaches me to accept everybody and live by example, not to shove my religion down other peoples throats.....if asked Im happy to discuss my god, my faith and the like.

All I have to say is....Jesus sat among the sinners....and I think he'd have a ball talking to the people on TFP

After reading through all of these posts, I'd like to add something to my original one.

I think the reason why some of us (Christians) do feel "out-of-sorts" at times (be it unwelcome, critcized too harshly, whatever) around here is because a good portion of the Christians on this board are quite liberal/scholarly/progressive in their thought regarding their religion, and yet we seemed to all get lumped in with the "crazy Fundies" the minute we reveal that we are Christian.

Abaya, as for combining Buddhism and Christianity: I have been practicing both for over a year now alongside one another. I find that true Buddhist ideals go perfectly with modern Christian practice. Furthermore, because in most forms of Buddhism there is no god (even in Pureland, there's only Amida, and he's a teacher, not a god), it really doesn't go against any Christian ideal/law/what-have-you. If anything, I've found Buddhism to be a great expansion of Christ's way--I would recommend the Diamond Sutra for reading :)

Your reply happend to be posted at the time I was posting a reply to an above reply by guthmund.

I personally don't automatically equate religion to close mindedness. Infact, Im pretty sure the idea of loving everyone, and letting God be the one that does the judging, is taught in Sunday school. I was just stating that I feel that there is a large group on this board that automatically lash out at people for being closed minded, when at the same time they are being closed minded about their "open minded" views being better. Sorry I didn't express this feeling with better chosen words earlier.

That is a very interesting point. Anytime religious ideals are raised, there is discussion. Some of it isn't very nice, but most of it is very civil, even when posters disagree.

To that end, becuase TPF presents a forum where all ideas can be expressed (and debated), I feel comfortable expressing my opinions, whether about my religious beliefs (roman catholic), political philosophy (moderate republican), or experiences and attitudes shaped by my military service.

So the long and the short of it is, the room sure doesn't go quiet! And I like that.

By the way, Jesus ate with sinners, and when questioned about it he said "It is not the well who need a doctor, but the sick." (Matthew 9:12). So Christians who hang out only with Christians are defeating the purpose.

Sir Lance.....thank you for not letting me be the only one to point that out!!!

If I haven't said this before, I'm of the right wing evangelical Christian persuasion, and I have been of the opinion that the TFP's unofficial position towards Christians and Christianity follows somewhat what the general world view is of Christianity; that Christianity is tired, bored, old fashioned, mysogenistic, racist, closed minded, and irrational.

I take it in stride, though. I didn't come here expecting to find a group of Bible believing Christians discussing the Messianic Psalms... In any secular group where there are 'intellectual' discussions on any number of topics, religion is sure to come up, and in this day and age, I am not surprised to find that most people who aren't Christians aren't big on Christianity.

I think he would, too.

You mean that's not what this place is...?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I wrote this in another thread, and it seems to apply here. There is an abiding assumption among many of us here IMO that logic reigns supreme, and I reject that. I think logic and faith are two very different and equally strong human characteristics. Love itself is a faith that defies all logic, but I assert that love is what most people aspire to obtain and enjoy more than anything else.

I'm Christian, and I don't worry if I'm welcome or not! :) I am disappointed when the "Reject All Religious Faith" trump card is played here to disengage from a discussion. I don't ask for others to believe what I believe, but here and elsewhere I ask for respect for the things I honor in my life.

Yeah, Jesus ate with sinners, but he also condemned sin. Just because he communed with sinners doesn't mean he approved of what they did, or how they spoke... that is a fact that is sorely overlooked.

I don't think people should use that as a defense of their actions, or as a way of showing their understanding of God the Son. Jesus is not to be compared with 'the guy next door'. He was not and is not 'one of us' and should not be treated as such...

Thats an opinion you're totally entitled too...my point was he didnt spend all his time with "like minded" people. Of course he condemned the sin, but he didnt shun the sinner either and thats how I try to spend my life. God made one perfect person.....ONE, thats it. If I choose to see my God as someone that I can talk to as a friend and advisor then thats my perogative and its worked for me my entire life. God made Jesus in human form so that we might relate better to a REAL person, yes kind of like the guy next door...and thats how Jesus treated the people back then, so I see no difference it doing the same thing.

I dont understand what you said about "using it to defend actions" cause I dont see anyone doing that....its more pointing out that christians that spend their time only hanging out with whom THEY deem worthy is not the kind of christian I am.

Having heard that many TFP'ers are indeed of this persuasion, and that many of you do feel welcome here, I have another question for you: Do you avoid certain boards on TFP because of your beliefs? I ask because when I was an evangelical, I can tell you that I would have avoided this place like hell (heh, hell was a scary place back then!). That whole temptation thing, looking at immoral pictures, allowing my mind to entertain impure thoughts... honestly folks, I was NOT into that when I was evangelical Christian. Remember, I attended an evangelical university... we signed a contract of lifestyle when we entered, promising not to drink, smoke, or engage in immoral sexual behavior. I swore to all of it, and kept my word. That was the kind of Christian I used to be. Words like "evolution" and "sexuality," right at the top of the page, would've scared me off pretty quick.

The only reason I could imagine coming to a place like this, back then (and I am being sincere here, in imagining how I used to be/think)... would be to pray for people here and try to "witness" in some way. I would pray that God would somehow reach out to the misguided, confused, blinded-by-sin people here... and I would probably avoid looking at any of the sexual boards. But I'd probably end up glancing anyway, feeling guilty, and praying more about it. Eventually I'd have to stop coming here, unless I could get that pattern of "sin" under control. That's basically what went on in my head, as an evangelical. (Perhaps some of you see why I have "strayed," :lol: )

Now, I am not saying all evangelicals are like that... but for those who are, I assume part of your beliefs are to honestly imitate Christ and be pure of heart and mind. And thus I am very curious about whether or not you avoid the explicit boards on TFP, choosing to participate only on boards where you feel you won't be exposed to temptation? Or, do you look anyway?... if so, how do you avoid the disconnect between your belief in what is holy, and what you choose to focus your eyes on?

/hopes this isn't a threadjack of my own thread... :hmm:

Actually Mary was conceived without sin, the immaculate conception. Two people were without sin. Sorry for the analness, this is a catholic precept, but matters of my faith are often contentious when misrepresented, felt I had to rep it. This again is coming from a catholic, protestants by and large do not respect Mary the same as Orthodoxs/catholics/or even Muslims.

quite honestly I dont consider them the same...but thats just me

Mary was born (from normal conception) with the grace of god....she was not OF god like Jesus was

My perspective is that open-mindedness tends to be a liberal worldview, hence the slant. But extremists of every variety are typically closed-minded. So the correlation is weak, at best.

Personally, I have met/heard a number of very vocal Christians who believe their way is the one true way. Frankly, they aren't alone. There are people in every way of life who believe the exact same thing.

I have also met a lot of Christians and people of many other different worldviews who are at least skeptical about some or many of the views associated with their religion.

I also recognize that my personal experiences are not representative of the population as a whole, and thus try not to make generalizations. They're too easy to use and make it too easy to judge people before you really know them.

I personally believe in a combination/alternation of spirituality and atheism. I too am skeptical one way or another about both. I too struggle to decide what my philosophy is. But I recognize that of everyone else, and just ignore fundamentalists, since their rhetoric is a waste of time.

Immaculate conception is a holiday in the Catholic Church, and is for all intents and purposes agreed upon by Muslims. "Immaculate Mary".

From the Catechism

I, in no way want to debate what each person believes and why....its true I dont know much about what the catholics believe....its never made sense to me for example....my understanding of the bible says that Jesus tells us the only way thru the father is thru the son, and you confess your sins to him....its never told me that I have to pray to mary to get her to intervene with jesus....the whole point of what I believe is what jesus did for me and what his word tells me to do.....I completely understand that the catholic bible has different books from mine and thusly I do not fully grasp the catholic belief and if they believe they need to confess their sins to a priest instead of directly to god and must perform the priests directions to get absolution....then more power too them, like I said, thats not at all how I interpret what the bible tells me.

To me it doesnt matter what the muslims, catholics, jews, protestants etc believe, its how you live your life according to what you believe and follow the basic commandments from god that I look at.

People will be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks exactly what how they do because whichever holy book you use speaks differently to all people

I understand and that's cool; just the whole thing is as a precept, catholicism started the whole thing. And for the record Mary isn't all iconic, but she is to be revered for us, amongst Christians it seems she really isn't, she is merely a birthing vessel.

To each there own, I don't judge you nor say you are wrong or hold it against you or anyone that your beliefs might be different then mine. It's funny growing up I had one of those old school Vatican I style grandma's, you know if you weren't catholic you go to hell. For me that is the basis of my dissention on organized religion. As a christian/catholic it never made sense to me that even as a Christian you only represent what, 1/5, maybe 1/4 of the world population, right? Seems awfully lame that some all loving, omnipotent god would hate on people who were born in India and thus raised differently then my ass for being born in Minnesota of the Judeo-Christian sect. Circumstance would be one hell of a bitch.

I strangely feel I'm included in this litter. Please, be it as it may, I have lived a long troubled life, IMO, short of committing actual sins. It's a wonder I haven't by now. I am tired, OH so tired of debating religion in any regard. We were made, we should respect life, we should respect the life we were given, and that we should place all women and children on the highest pedestal we can find. PERIOD. Everybody can think whatever they want in terms of creationism after the fact - every has race has their different intrepretation. What you fail to realize, RACE, for instance, is going to played everytime in religion. So many different ethinicities and Americans have the gall to portray him as white??? He can't be black, latino, god for bid Aussie or Asian? Maybe even Indian? Every race believes God to be of a descent of their own if not unhuman but spritual.

I feel like Christianity is overbearing and smothering. And if I'm not apart of the crowd I'm not welcome anywhere. In fact, when "Christians" have met an Athetist, in my viewings, they ALWAYS say "That's ok. Come with us, talk with us, eat with us" but then they say in closing: "We will show you the way". To either enlightenment or a happy path? I don't know.

I sadly do not agree with you thinkin' the TFP is not more than most of the time respecting your beliefs. Rather if disagreement happens occasionally, you're going to have to take it. No one on God's green earth is going to allow you to say your beliefs w/o ONCE challenging you. That is what is so great about people. They took the gift of thought and... REALLY used it! They don't accept things just as they are, or just b/c they're written as fact. But take their life experiences and fomulate opinions and beliefs based on that.

Basically, to expect to NEVER be challenged or disagreed with is a foolhardy concept in itself. And you'd just better understand that before you go any further in discussing "faith". Faith is not fact, it's a belief. W/o discussion there is more ignorance... it's just not voiced.

Oy, caramba.

Im glad you didnt take what I said the wrong way :icare: I wasnt entirely sure that I conveyed correctly. To me...fundamentally we believe the same things and we were both educated on the smaller things differently.

We can all learn from each other...my whole point in the "perfect person" reference was that NONE of us will ever be like that, God knew that when he gave us free will......

but hey, you taught me something I didnt really know tonite and actually made me do some catholic research....thats always a good thing...I dont like coming off as a dumb ass when talking about religion....really I dont :lol:

This is interesting because it points out what a sinner I am. I don't avoid any boards here. In fact, I rather enjoy them all. Can I be a Christian and look at porn? I am weak, and I've never found the strength to stay away from it. One thing I know, God does not want me to have a life that is dominated by guilt and self-loathing. What purpose would that serve? So I just keep praying that God will use my strengths to serve His purposes and forgive my weaknesses.

Wow. If you think I'm messed up now, can you imagine what a mess I would be without Jesus?

How would I possibly be against literature? I really dont see any relevance to my post and your conclusion. You should have easily been able to pickup that I refering to bible, and not saying all books in general. This is a thread about religion, and specifically the christian religion. If not, there ya go. Yes, I find it foolish that some people will deny any theories or science that go against some things of what the bible says no matter how strong of evidence there is. It blocks out our ability to learn and advance our place in this world. Is that not what literature is there for?

The whole start to my first post was to simply lay down the basis of who I am, and where my placement is in the thread.

Maybe that is the question I am getting down to... I guess for me, porn was such a HUUUUGE no-no in my church and university (the university actually tried to ban all on-campus computers from accessing any porn sites), that I have a hard time knowing how I, if I was still a Christian, would have reconciled my viewing of porn and other sexually-explicit topics with my faith.

I think that is actually one part of why I left the church... because I felt that to continue calling myself an evangelical without walking the walk, would be a sham and give a bad name to those who *do* walk the walk. And, let's be honest, I just wanted to have more fun. :lol: But as I said, I am honestly curious about how others have managed the reconciliation, and I figure the TFP is as good a place as any to ask that question.

I think you're right on that point, Aladdin (yes, we agree!!) :) .. does guilt serve a purpose? I think for me, it was another reason why I got tired of churchly rhetoric. I didn't feel guilty as long as I repressed everything inside me, confessed every tiny sin, prayed for sinners (including myself) and whatnot... but damn, when I started opening up to "corruptive" influences (bless them, hehe), I had to deal with the guilt. And after a long wrestle with those consequences, I decided that it was lame that I had been programmed to feel guilty for things that were quite natural and healthy. My "morality" shifted... and my friends prayed for me... heck, my 10-years-ago self would think that my today's self would be burning in hell... but I'm doin' alright.

I guess my question was more along the lines of: Christians, do you ever feel threatened by the topics on some explicit threads? Do you ever avoid them, not out of guilt but out of a desire for purity? For me, I decided purity wasn't the big deal it was cracked up to be... I wanted to be more human. TFP is a great place for that! :)

Maybe I am just curious about the *kinds* of Christians we have as members... I'm getting the idea that they are, on a whole, more liberal (at least sexually, though perhaps not politically) than most of Christian America. Otherwise, why would they be here?

As far as I can tell from the Philosophy Board, the Christians here run the gamut from Calvinist (well, maybe I'm the only one), fundamentalist (not many, and they tend not to stay long), evangelical (the most common of the more 'conservative' people), to more liberal sorts (Martin Guerre, mind if I throw you in here?).

Abaya - your last post changed my perspective on this thread. You're asking if Christians feel comfortable on TFP (as in if it is compatible with their faith), not if TFP welcomes Christians, right? That's pretty different, and I'd be interested in hearing how Christians reconcile the possible differences...

Shani I'm amazed that I taught you something, and I am even more grateful that you would relay that to me. Going to Catholic High School I was educated in Church history, doctrine, well rounded and versed with the world religions, but I was a stoner in high school; which was not but 3-4 years ago. Let me thank you for reinvigorating those dusted brain cells, makes me feel better about myself :icare:

Who wants to learn about the history of the Catolic Church and it's evolution with the driest dude alive at 830am, well under the influence of the dankstas?

Well, ubertuber, I guess you're right... I did threadjack my own thread. :lol: Should I start a new one?

In the meantime, I see the two questions as being related. Yes, I started out by wondering if TFP welcomes Christians. But then as I kept reading, and noticed how many Christians (and what a diversity of them) responded, I wondered how and why so many people from a religion that espouses sexual purity (at least, from the mainstream that I was involved in... man, I was waitin' for marriage!) could come here, feel welcome, and engage with sexually explicit material. Thus I wondered if maybe, some of them do NOT engage with that material. Hence my question.

Now, I would say that this is a free forum, and people can come and go as they please... if one doesn't like the content, then they are free to leave or abstain from a forum. But there *are* evangelical Christians here, which means there is something about the content that they like. But if the sexual content goes against their values, then how do they deal with it?

As I said, in my former life I would have run from this place as if it were hell itself. :) So it has me very curious to know how our more strict Christians deal with the "temptations" offered here. :) I imagine some do not view it as a hindrance to their faith... but there is some kind of dissonance there that I don't understand, and would like to.

A last thought... I wonder if there is a niche here for evangelical Christians who, since much of their community frowns upon fornication and sodomy (to use their terms) and frank discussion of sex in general... come here because they are sincerely curious about how to enhance their own sex lives (within a marriage, I would imagine) and don't have anywhere else to go. If so, this would indicate a blatant gap in the provision of the church for the needs of its community... I certainly felt that gap, when I was involved.

Thoughts?

My religious beliefs haven't been brought up, but I am a Christian. I am a contemporary Methodist. I haven't been attacked or abused in any way, but I fully expect it. Not on here in particular, but I accept it as a fact of life. Jesus said in so many words, no slave is better than their master, as I have been persecuted so will you be.

I will admit to having avoided tilted philosophy for fear of being ripped to shreads, seeing as how I'm very confrontation shy. I will admit to being much less religiously active since I came to college. I also happen to be desperately in love with a Pagan. Let's just say I'm trying to figure out exactly what I believe, but I know that I am and will always be a Christian.

The forum is a wonderful place where we give opinions, recieve others' opinions, and ultimately, learn new things and ideas. I wouldn't say it's any more unfriendly to Christians than the media. I can't watch Family Guy without having a Jesus joke thrown in there, but that really doesn't deter me from watching.

The point is: I'm not bothered enough to stop using the forum. In fact, I find it thoroughly enjoyable.

Well, if you think that American Baptist is liberal...

I think I should confess something....when looking at upgrade of account, I do tend to refrain from alotting full membership to the Overtly christian members here...not because I am Biased against the faith, but because I feel they would run away if given access.

American Baptist is pretty liberal isn't it? Very different from Southern Baptists.

Lead me not unto temptation....? or watch out, I just blew your mind kind of thing? :p


That was at me? Yeah, I guess that makes sense (maybe it's the cold medicine kicking in :) ).

Kind of like that tolerance bit...you know... How can someone preach tolerance and at the same time be intolerant of intolerance? I would think that once you become intolerant of intolerance you can't, by definition, be tolerant.

That was one of the problems I had with the Church, and why I didn't go for 20 years. Then I figured it out... some of the people might be hypocrits, but that doesn't pollute the message.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blade02
"To think that being open minded is the best way to go, you first have to be closed minded enough to believe that open-mindedness is the best way to go. So it contradicts itself right from the get go."

It makes sense to me.
"Open mindedness" is just a synonym for "I have no firm convictions." When one proclaims open-mindedness, it is typically intended to set one apart from "close-mindedness," which is pejorative. "Open-mindedness" is a claim that implies intellectual superiority.
Proclaiming "open-mindedness" means there is only one thing to be sure about, and that is that there are no firm conclusions. The irony here is that so-called open-mindedness is actually a refusal to think about things in a certain way. It could even be argued that "open-mindedness" is a refusal to think at all, because thinking requires making distinctions and categorizing; judging and arriving at conclusions. Maintaining an "open-mind" requires a dogmatic faith that there are no firm conclusions.

William F. Buckley said it clearer (and with many fewer words) than I could ever hope to:
“The purpose of an open mind is to close it, on particular subjects. If you never do — you've simply abdicated the responsibility to think.”

Different?

In ways, yeah. To be honest, I tend to think that the SBC is apostate to the historic values and traditions of American Baptist life (i mean that in the larger sense of all baptists in America, not just my denomination). The radicality of the changes they made in the 70s is the primary indication of that.

But i would hardly say that the ABC is liberal. Our latest statement of idenity is:

Thanks, ubertuber. :) I didn't intend for this to become a Philosophy thread... I know it's tempting to go that direction, but I really want to hear more from Christians on how they interact with/feel about TFP, and also how they deal with the explicit material. Consider it a more social-scientific inquiry than a theological one (at least, coming from me, since that's my field). :)

Up front, I didn't read the whole of the thread...

However, I can say that personally, and I believe I see this in some others around the TFP as well, I only have an issue with devout, blind-faith people who refuse to see anothers point of view. I consider myself a non-denominational spiritualist. I think that all major religions have good points and flaws. I will not hold it against one for being Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu... all of those are wonderful things, and religion is something that should be felt on a personal level. However, I will be quick to lash out against anyone who commits to their faith so blindly as to refute or degrade anothers' spiritual beliefs. Again, this goes for followers of any religion or spiritual guidance. Again, it comes down to live and let live. *shrug*

ALLOW ME A POINT OF CLARIFICATION, SINCE SOME HAVE EXPRESSED SOME CONCERN ON MY BEHALF, BASED ON MY LAST POST... and clearly, I wasn't clear enough there!

When I said I might not post any more, I only meant in this particular thread. I'm not sure it would be helpful or add much to the debate -- and the rhetoric has grown considerably since I last posted. I think that's a good thing.

I think being able to exchange and engage other ideas is profitable. When I tried to observe that perhaps much of what is expressed here is somewhat anti-thetical to a Christian world view, it wasn't of necessity a criticism, rather an observation.

I lived for 23 years before I was "born again" or converted to Christ. During the last 6 of those years I was a very good sinner, if you get my meaning: ie: I sinned well, and took lots of opportunities to practice it. So I'm not ignorant of how it is to be on the "other side of the aisle" so to speak.

I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of, and I'm very thankful for God's grace in forgiving me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm not surprised at the point of the view the majority enjoy, accept, express, etc.. here. And in general I'm not offended by it, nor shocked etc..

What saddens me is that it sometimes seems some will try to bulldoze their point over and use ad hominem attacks to bolster their argument. I would like to think we can interact with each other without stooping so low. And even if others do I'll try not to.

Frankly, do I think I'll "convert" anyone on here? No. [Biblical clarification: it's not my job to convert anyone; that's God's business. My job, as a Christian, is to try to be the best ambassador for His Kingdom that I can be.] But perhaps some one can have their "field of vision" enlarged by something I write, and I know I don't know everything -- not even close! -- so I'm sure I can learn some things, too.

Again, I may or may not post IN THIS THREAD again simply because I'm not sure if I have anything productive to add to the discourse. I haven't had time to read and re-read the whole thread, and I'm not sure I could keep up with it all. If I do post again, it may be to try to make a few general observations and perhaps a few specific reactions / refutations.

One main observation, if I may, is that while I'm still a little bit surprised that I'm the only pastor on TFP -- at least it seems the only one who's "fessed up" -- I'm encouraged that this thread has seem to drawn out many voices who in general may lean more towards my way of thinking on a whole host of issues.

Y'all have probably been here all along, but this brought you all together for me to see all at once! And that's encouraging to me.

Also, I'm very thankful several have expressed concern towards me and for me. Many have been very kind towards me, and I'm hubmly thankful for them.

Again, the thread in the main has been interesting, invigorating, and thought-provoking. I'll be checking in again from time to time, and perhaps I will post in this thread again, but maybe not. I'll think and pray about it.

My blessings to you all.

I wonder if this thread would have as many replies if you could simply vote "yes" or "no" and what the outcome would be?

As a mod you are entitled to do as you wish, alloting the appropriate titles on whom you wish, but if I can speak openly, I have to say I find that somewhat unfair... Does that mean that I'll never become a full member because I share my opinions and speak my mind about where I stand in terms of my faith? Can you explain what you mean by "I feel they would run away if given access"... Do you mean we would become pushy and beligerent because we would be somewhat more "untouchable"?

I feel that if I've been here as long as I have, submitting as many quality posts as the next guy, staying within the guidelines of the TFP, that I should acheive full status just as all the others have... I'm not perfect, I've sometimes posted inappropriately, sometimes tested the limits, etc. but for the most part I've played the game fairly. I guess I just want to be included like everyone else. I want a fair shake...

Well ....allow me to address your confusion. Full membership allows access to areas of the board that contain materials generally considered offensive to an "Overtly" christian mindset, I think we can agree on this aspect. This is a single part of the person, and is taken into consideration when evaluating membership qualities, and I will continue to do so, as a means of helping our membership evolve.
Understand also....membership is continuously evaluated, and established members monitored for compatibility with the community. As an example....requesting pictures of members in EX....walking the fine line of trolling....these are things we take into serious consideration when deciding on the future of members here.

Sometimes Daoust....it is a fine line....indeed.

The "we" in red above was referring to the US government, not Christians. I didn't make that clear.

My point was intended to be that Christians do not control our government to as great an extent as some people believe. A politician who proposed diminishing our support of Israel (even though they have been caught spying on us) would encounter a great deal of opposition from the Jewish community. He or she would also be branded as a "bigot" or "anti-Semite."

In New York, such a position would be political suicide.

Back to the original question: No, I don't think Christians are particularly welcome here. All too often, revealing you are a Christian opens the door to assumptions that by no means apply to all of us.

For example, it only took you four sentences to zero in on the "Christian Right" as if they speak for all Christians.

This is an excellent point, and you made it a lot more quickly than I did in my post earlier... I agree with you, but I'd like to take it a little farther.

There aren't so many groups in the world (or here on TFP, especially in places like the politics group) that don't get treated this way. I think when you don't feel this way it is because your particular group has a dominant presence (not exclusively so, but weighty nonetheless).

I wonder if you feel that Christians are especially unwelcome here... From my perspective, they're treated as just another group of people. By that I don't mean they're ignored, but rather that they are fair game for analysis and criticism like any other group (whether religious, social, or other). But then, I'm not particularly Christian these days, so my opinion doesn't speak to the experience that Christians have here.

I'm interested in hearing more from Christians about how they reconcile their faith with some of the common practices/beliefs around here...

I've read through a lot, but not all posts in here, and have come to a conclusion.

The TFP may well contain posts that may boil down to simple attacks on Christianity, no doubt. However, the TFP most likely does not contain posts that are personal attacks on other members for being Christian. That makes a pretty important difference in how welcoming the place is considered to be.

Any person that takes "attacks" on their faith as personal attacks is going to feel not welcome. I think we strive to guide the members we do have from "attack" style posts to more reasonable discussion of why they don't believe a certain thing. Be it any religion or creed they disagree with. That's what we do here. We discuss things. Any poster who makes blanket statements, of any kind, in any serious discussion here gets every flaw to that statement pointed out by fellow members.

You don't get, at the TFP, "You're an idiot for being a "NAME RELIGION HERE."

You might get "All people who are "NAME RELIGION HERE" are idiots."

I guarantee that first post would get you warned by a mod, and the second one would have several other member's comments dissmissing it as the show of ignorance it is.

That's how I figure we're a more welcoming place than most of the world.

I stand by that assessment.

I sense that this forum has a tendency to be skeptical toward religion, and certain members can be outright hostile toward those beliefs at times, but years ago, when I considered myself to be a "Good Christian," I did not in any way feel unwelcome because of my views.

I'm still losing your point.

Politically active Christians tend to support Israel at higher rates than average voters.

if Christians controlled the government...they would support Israel...less?

Wtf?

And don't play that game with me, marv. I'm Baptist myself...and i know that there's a whole lot of variety to Christendom. But if we're talking politics, America, and now...we're talking about more conservative Christianities. That's not exactly rocket science.

My point is this. In American political discourses as a whole, Christians (especially conservative ones) are being accomodated and empowered to a degree not seen since the Scopes trial. Fundamentalist rhetorics have greater sway in political life than they have in a long time...and that's not a perjorative desription, but just a reporting.

On the TFP, the general left-lean means that's not as true. But i'd suggest to anyone whining that it's hard to follow Jesus here...that it's 10 times harder to be queer. Qwitcherbitchin' might be my kindest advice.

I dont know.. i just dont let certian posts goad me into a reply.. most that spam the anti-christian ideal want you mad and post a retort just to say.. hey christ boy.. your not supposed to act like that.. not saying it happens here just my view on it all.

its like agrueing over the internet.. you never see physically who your argueing with.. why do it.. its like beating a dead horse with a stick.. no point n it.

everyone is entitled to their opinion and beliefs.. sure if someone wants to chat it up about God, I'm all for it. but you will find that even with christians there are many views.

Actually, I grasped your original meaning. It was that I became concerned after abaya brought it up [Domino effect? :lol:]. And felt compelled to do it, "just in case". :D I also get you when you say you feel there isn't more you could add to the debate and I've felt like that countless times. So no hard feelings there. ;)

I don't know if this refers to me. I'd specifically like to be called out. Again, I have to embrace reality as hard as I embrace my ideals, principles, and values. To deny it, is unforgivable. I'm not going to sweep anything under the rug to save face.

Ok, got you loud and clear. I don't think I'll be any more productive either. If you do reply, great. I also feel his thread has had enough debate.

And,
Dude, you took tecoyah totally out of context. He literally meant "run away" as in leave their account, leave TFP. Have you visited OTW [Off The Wayside] or the Titty Board? Those areas are not something for everybody, if not provocative. There probably should be an extra [auto?] PM sent to people who donate/non-paying members acheiving full access asking them if they want access to the questionable sections of the TFP. B/c if they unknowingly waltz in there w/o knowing what's going on... it's not going to be pretty.

I remember the first time I visited OTW. Uhhhh..... :hmm:.....and I'm still reeling from the effects. :p But I'm aware of it now and I'm very used to it. In fact, I tried to get tags implemented there b/c of some quirky titled threads I opened thinkin' one thing and became shocked [:eek:] when it was horribly the opposite [to that of my expectations]...

LMAO, I stopped reading here. I figured the thread wasn't going much of anywhere so I ended with a good laugh. Thanks, analog.

I suppose it depends on your perspective. Ive never felt any reaction against my religion here, but as a communist I've found a lot of opposition to my political views, to the point that I got banned from this site temporarily for the way I expressed them. I know I cant say things that I believe to be true here because I'd just be excluded from the site if I do. It doesnt upset me that much, I just dont come here when I want to talk about my beliefs or politics. I can still enjoy talking about sports or movies or poetry.

I think TFP welcomes everybody, but is not particularly hospitable to stupid people. If you have a belief, be it political, philosophical, religious, or anything else, if you have no proof, if you hold this belief despite proof to the contrary, you won't last long here.

All the christians I've met (outside of the internet) except for two, are, in my opinion, stupid people. Their beliefs do not hold up to scrutiny. As such, I am wary of those that I met here, and will challenge them. Of course, there are very few stupid people here, due to the nature of TFP.


I myself, hold no real religious beliefs. I think some christian denominations are plausible, buddism is very cool, and of course there's always the chance that the world is nothing more than we see.

I wouldn't say ESPECIALLY unwelcome. Like much (possibly MOST) internet discussion, things are said that are unlikely to be brought up in a real-life conversation. I'm certainly guilty of that at times. However, I can't recall a time in real life when someone accused me of being a fan of Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson. Online, it's pretty easy to be lumped in with them.

IRL, the religious beliefs of the Buddhists, Jews, and Muslims (or Islamists, since that seems to be the fashionable descriptor) I know just don't crop up in conversation that often. I tend not to get in religious discussions with Christians either, because abortion alone will take up a morning without resolving anything. Of course, religion can't be AVOIDED if you're talking to a Mormon. (:lol:--sort of)

In an online political debate, the typecasting, not just about religion, is fairly common, and I doubt that anyone likes being fitted into their own little slot, based on one or two facets of their makeup.

Things also get awkward when a moderator does it, not that you have.

This is not one of my most coherent posts, but maybe it got my message across.