Cheney Shoots Donor in Hunting Accident - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

BigBen · 02-15-2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

...but rather the secrecy involved afterword....

Absolutely. 100%. Something stinks, and this is going to blow up.

Stompy · 02-15-2006, 08:19 AM

Accidental death 99% of the time falls into manslaughter.

The main thing with manslaughter is murder without malice or intent to cause harm while doing something illegal (like trespassing), however, manslaughter is also applied in most cases where the offender isn't doing anything illegal (ie: driving and his tire blows out and hits some kids).

A popular example would be self-defense. If someone robs you or attacks you, you have every right to defend yourself to protect your safety. You aren't doing anything illegal, yet if you happen to kill them, you'll get slapped with manslaughter. It's nothing terribly lengthy.. maybe 6 months to a year, but still.. it's utterly ridiculous.

Most of the time, unless there's a dire reason to do otherwise, a person *will* serve time for the most ridiculous accidents. Just happens to be a blunder of our justice system that we unfortunately have to deal with, but... it's the way things are for *everyone*.

Now... negligence while hunting is on a completely different level, and a bit more serious, than "whoops, my tire blew out and I killed your kid," or, "he broke into my house, so I shot at him to protect my family." There are *always* charges involved.

If I get time later, I'll serach on Google for articles involving hunting accidents. Even in the most simple of cases, and basic of accidents (where no one died), each person was charged with "careless use of a firearm" that resulted in a small term. I don't think there was ever a case where the person just walked free and had the entire situation expedited within a few days.

dksuddeth · 02-15-2006, 09:15 AM

regarding the secrecy and turning away the local deputy...

Does anyone remember the last time that local texas lawmen and the secret service got in to a pushing and shoving match?? nothing happened then and nothing is going to happen now. Nothing will happen in the future because we, as a society, in our liberalized effort to 'socialize' our government have given the federal government so much damn power that this is easily gotten away with, even expected. This will not change no matter whether its a democrat or republican in office because every time something tragic happens (katrina for example) the first ones we blame are the feds. The majority are practically ignoring the responsibility at the state and local level.....why do we even have mayors and governers?

Bottom line, if you want to be able to hold the federal office holders accountable for their actions, you need to start electing people that are actually willing to make the fed government less powerful and you don't do that by playing dem vs rep, you do that by electing libertarians. Until then, this is all just a game to see who can make the other look worse.

pan6467 · 02-15-2006, 09:31 AM

The problem here lies in partisanship.

IF Cheney were to be investigated over this, the GOP talking heads from Limbaugh down to these boards would scream how it was all a giant partisan witch hunt and put public pressure on to let him get away with it.... and if the man dies.... Cheney will literally have gotten away with homocide (taking another man's life accidental or not).

Is it fair.... NO

But that is the climate of the country right now. The hatred and partisanship allows the politicians to get away with whatever the fuck they want because all they have to do is rally the "partisan witch hunt" cry.

BigBen · 02-15-2006, 11:02 AM

Absolutely true, Pan.

How do we stop it? Is there a way to achieve justice without being accused of being Partisan?

What justice is warranted in this situation? I think the SS should be held accountable for obstruction and Cheney should tell the public what happened (and soon) and come clean with everything.

clavus · 02-15-2006, 11:29 AM

Maybe I should post this on Tilted Weapons, but...

Now personally, I don't give a poop if the White House delayed telling the press about Deadeye Dick's Shoting Adventure. But the story just isn't adding up.

The guy approached from the rear. Cheney spun over 90 degrees(?) and shot him at a distance of 30 yards. Cheney was using a shotgun slightly smaller than a 20 gauge, yet managed to puncture his heart with BIRDSHOT... at 90 feet away?

Wha? I can't even kill a BIRD with birdshot 90 feet away.

Doesn't that seem pretty damn unlikely?

samcol · 02-15-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

regarding the secrecy and turning away the local deputy...

Does anyone remember the last time that local texas lawmen and the secret service got in to a pushing and shoving match?? nothing happened then and nothing is going to happen now. Nothing will happen in the future because we, as a society, in our liberalized effort to 'socialize' our government have given the federal government so much damn power that this is easily gotten away with, even expected. This will not change no matter whether its a democrat or republican in office because every time something tragic happens (katrina for example) the first ones we blame are the feds. The majority are practically ignoring the responsibility at the state and local level.....why do we even have mayors and governers?

Bottom line, if you want to be able to hold the federal office holders accountable for their actions, you need to start electing people that are actually willing to make the fed government less powerful and you don't do that by playing dem vs rep, you do that by electing libertarians. Until then, this is all just a game to see who can make the other look worse.

Yes, the local police had more power than the feds in that situation anyhow. He should of demanded that they allow his department to investigate right then, which was his job and duty. Now we will probably never know what really happened unless the victim describes the event differently.

Instead we get cheney micromanaging the whole event and thus we don't really know what was going on. Why does the administration always have to count on everyone 'trusting' them instead of just letting government utilize it's inherent checks and balances.

samcol · 02-15-2006, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clavus

Maybe I should post this on Tilted Weapons, but...

Now personally, I don't give a poop if the White House delayed telling the press about Deadeye Dick's Shoting Adventure. But the story just isn't adding up.

The guy approached from the rear. Cheney spun over 90 degrees(?) and shot him at a distance of 30 yards. Cheney was using a shotgun slightly smaller than a 20 gauge, yet managed to puncture his heart with BIRDSHOT... at 90 feet away?

Wha? I can't even kill a BIRD with birdshot 90 feet away.

Doesn't that seem pretty damn unlikely?

Great points and that's kind of what I've been wondering. I've never been bird hunting but from what I've been hearing at 30 yards a shotgun of that size usually only knocks the bird down and you still have to wring it's neck to kill it. It doesn't sound like a situation where someone could get shot embedded that deeply.

Not to mention the whole spinning around 180 degrees to shoot a bird is a huge no no especially from an experienced hunter like the vp.

dksuddeth · 02-15-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Yes, the local police had more power than the feds in that situation anyhow.

This would be your wishful thinking, but in reality, federal agents have greater jurisdictional power over locals any day of the week.

pan6467 · 02-15-2006, 12:12 PM

Well we get to hear his story tonight on guess which GOP friendly cable news network?????

Personally, something like this should not be allowed to be just on 1 single network, this should be a full blown press conference with ANY news agency that wants to be there.

Talk about true bullshit now.

ratbastid · 02-15-2006, 12:33 PM

The administration would MUCH rather be dealing with this than with the new batch of Abu Graib photos that just got released.

This is spin control again. It's even better, because this time we think we've GOT them on something. Stay alert--all SORTS of stuff is going to start blipping on the radar and vanishing under the Shotgun Cheney story.

BigBen · 02-15-2006, 12:39 PM

/Ben brings in Tilted Weapons, Tilted Knowledge into one post:

There are different gauges of shotgun, and I have shot 12 and 20 gauge. I saw a 10 gauge once, but it looked too scary to fire.

The higher the gauge number, the smaller the barrel;

Why? The gauge is a measurement of diameter of lead balls that weigh one pound. These balls were often used in commerce and trade when scales were used but before a big standard unit of measure. Thus, 7 gauge means that 7 lead balls of equal size will weigh one pound.

12 gauge is popular for its ballistic properties, I guess.

Secondly, there are DOZENS of different types of "Birdshot", ranging from (help me out here, duckhunters) #3 to #9. The larger the number, the finer the pellets. #9 birdshot is like sand, I think.

The different types of birdshot produce different effects on different types of fowl at different ranges.

Therefore, if you are a hunter and you know exactly what you are doing, you would chose a 20 gauge over/under shotgun with #7 on top and #3 on the bottom.

Thirdly, there are different types of CHOKES available for your barrel. A choke is a little tube-like thing that concentrates (or disperses, whichever way you look at it) the pattern of pellets at different ranges. The Choke (and your barrel) are threaded, so you can change one for the other.

Types of chokes include Full, Modified, Sporting, et cetera.

Finally, to conclude: damage when hit at 30 yards with a shotgun blast (full or partial) would depend on:
A: Gauge of shotgun
B: Ammunition being used.
C: Choke pattern used in the barrel.

12 gauge, #3 birdshot with full choke would seriously fuck you up at 30 yards.

20 gauge, #9 shot with modified choke would not even make it that far. (I think, help me out here, birdhunters).

samcol · 02-15-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

This would be your wishful thinking, but in reality, federal agents have greater jurisdictional power over locals any day of the week.

I'll admit I don't know much about law, but why did the local and state police go to investigate and release the police report? It seems to me they were in charge but got bullied by the feds and didn't do anything about it. The secret service called the local polic department instead of the FBI. How does this even fall under federal jurisdiction?

clavus · 02-15-2006, 01:10 PM

I'm thinking 20 gauge w/ #9 shot is what I used to use for doves and quail. The gun the VP used as a funky gauge - 22.6?? It was bit smaller.

A 12 guage would not be appropriate for quail. You'd have nothing left but feathers. Hell, anything that would pierce a man's heart at 90 feet would not be appropriate for small birds. You'd vaporize the little buggers.

Charlatan · 02-15-2006, 01:12 PM

Maybe Whittington was naked at the time of the shooting. Old people's skin can be very thin.

maleficent · 02-15-2006, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Maybe Whittington was naked at the time of the shooting. Old people's skin can be very thin.

Oooh well he was the donor... maybe he was ... ummm... well... ya know... as a bonus for giving to the cause...

(sorry... )

Bill O'Rights · 02-15-2006, 01:19 PM

Sometimes, mal...just sometimes...you scare me, the way your mind works.

Thanks for that image. ewwww
Do you have any idea just how many hours I'm going to have to spend in the TB, just to get rid of that?

maleficent · 02-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Sometimes, mal...just sometimes...you scare me, the way your mind works.

Thanks for that image. ewwww
Do you have any idea just how many hours I'm going to have to spend in the TB, just to get rid of that?

Sex scandals = very bad
shooting a donor = we can live with that

I smell a coverup of gargantuan proportions...

(and now, i'm going to tilted paranoia

Charlatan · 02-15-2006, 01:29 PM

Cheney and Wittington were having a little too much Wild Turkey and little bit of Brokeback action when Cheney's gun accidentally went off...

Makes sense to me.

msh58 · 02-15-2006, 04:54 PM

thought shotgun cheney did well in his interview and his friend seems to be stabilizing.

so i guess it wasn't his plan for campaign finance reform, take money from the donor than shoot them.

dksuddeth · 02-15-2006, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

I'll admit I don't know much about law, but why did the local and state police go to investigate and release the police report? It seems to me they were in charge but got bullied by the feds and didn't do anything about it. The secret service called the local polic department instead of the FBI. How does this even fall under federal jurisdiction?

Texas law is a strange animal. In ANY possible criminal act, texas law enforcement MUST investigate and prosecute if necessary. This does not mean that the feds WON'T take over, just that texas law is supposed to be followed. This is a constitutional gray area though, much like it was over the JFK assassination, and I don't see texas law enforcement standing up to the secret service anytime soon.

Superbelt · 02-15-2006, 07:25 PM

It was a 24 gauge. Which has somewhere around 250 pellets in it. And Wittington caught over 200 in his body according to the hospital. No way in hell he was 90 feet away. He probrably wasn't more than 20 feet away.
This guys face is probrably pulp.

...
So, in his interview with Pravda he admitted to drinking 1 beer about 4-5 hours prior.
Others who were at the retardo-bird slaughter event were later interviewed as saying he had several beers before going out.
And the Hospital has given a no comment as to whether or not the guy who got gunned down had alcohol in his system. Which is effectively saying, we won't tell you HOW MUCH alcohol was in his blood.

They were at least buzzing out there.
It really grabs me the wrong way knowing someone under so much public scrutiny is going to get away with ignoring law enforcement.
At least the idea that Wittington is at fault for intercepting Cheney's birdshot will be dying down after the interview.

clavus · 02-15-2006, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superbelt

It was a 24 gauge.

What part of my ass did I pull "22.6 gauge" from?

I only had one beer before I posted that, though other sources may tell you that I had four or five.

Plaid13 · 02-15-2006, 08:39 PM

Sucks that the old guy got shot but... its funny and scary as hell that this is the quality of people that run this country. 30 yards away with bird shot isnt too bad but hitting a guy that old with anything could be very bad. hes just lucky it wasnt buck shot. For him to shoot that guy from that far away he must of shot at that bird when it was very low to the ground. im not sure but i always thought it was illegal to shoot at a bird that was below head level. But that could just be common safty sence.

Marvelous Marv · 02-15-2006, 11:08 PM

More clarifications:

1. The news report I saw said that the pellet "traveled" to Whittington's heart. It didn't "pierce" it.

2. Cheney said he had a beer at lunch, and they went out hunting two hours later. He said no one else drank anything. I'm not swearing it's true, but that's what he said.

3. Cheney said the reason for delaying release of the matter was because they wanted to inform Whittington's family prior to having it all over the media.

4. There is no truth to the rumor that the Texas Longhorns wore their orange jerseys at the White House yesterday because they heard Cheney would be there.

Marvelous Marv · 02-15-2006, 11:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Accidental death 99% of the time falls into manslaughter.

The main thing with manslaughter is murder without malice or intent to cause harm while doing something illegal (like trespassing), ...

Most of the time, unless there's a dire reason to do otherwise, a person *will* serve time for the most ridiculous accidents. Just happens to be a blunder of our justice system that we unfortunately have to deal with, but... it's the way things are for *everyone*.

Now... negligence while hunting is on a completely different level, and a bit more serious, than "whoops, my tire blew out and I killed your kid," or, "he broke into my house, so I shot at him to protect my family." There are *always* charges involved...

Tell that to Mary Jo Kopechne. How long was it before Teddy turned himself in? However long it took to sober up?

flstf · 02-16-2006, 08:57 AM

My initial reaction to this shooting accident is sympathy for Whittington and Cheney. I imagine Cheney must feel terrible about shooting his friend/aquantance.

The only thing that would change my feelings is if it is shown that he was drunk. Everything else is just politics and this seems like an accident that could happen to anybody.

Charlatan · 02-16-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Tell that to Mary Jo Kopechne. How long was it before Teddy turned himself in? However long it took to sober up?

You forgot to add... OMG! Clinton lied about getting a blow job.

Seriously. We are all aware of Kennedy's accident. If Cheney was drunk, he will likely get away with it as well.

pan6467 · 02-16-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marvelous Marv

Tell that to Mary Jo Kopechne. How long was it before Teddy turned himself in? However long it took to sober up?

I see so because a Dem did it 35 years ago it's ok for a GOP to do it today?

But I do like the fact that you are comparing Cheney to Kennedy.... lol

Why does everything come down to that? I thought the GOP sold themselves as the moral and least corruptable party.

stevo · 02-16-2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I see so because a Dem did it 35 years ago it's ok for a GOP to do it today?

But I do like the fact that you are comparing Cheney to Kennedy.... lol

Why does everything come down to that? I thought the GOP sold themselves as the moral and least corruptable party.

I don't think Marv is stating moral equivalence, but only pointing out the HYPOCRISY of the left...

Poppinjay · 02-16-2006, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevo

I don't think Marv is stating moral equivalence, but only pointing out the HYPOCRISY of the left...

How so? Has this board been ripe with people defending Kennedy's driving record?

Stompy · 02-16-2006, 10:26 AM

Oh, I didn't think he was pointing out hypocrisy.

I thought he was proving my point that politicians act above the law.

(Which he did very well, thanks)

stevo · 02-16-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

How so? Has this board been ripe with people defending Kennedy's driving record?

Not defending, but completely ignoring. I like how the left's arguement is always "What happened in the past doesn't matter, just because so&so did X doesn't make it right for [republican] to do it." Thats the hypocrisy.

Why is this front-page in-you-face coverage news anyway? Sure its a news story, maybe even something on the front. page the day the story breaks. But this seems to be the only thing the media wants to cover. How about covering Al Gore going to Saudi Arabia and defaming the US. Is that not newsworthy?

Plus all this talk about cheny being above the law is rediculous. You people act like there has never been an accidental shooting that never warrented a police investigation. I garuntee you there have been accidental shootings in the past where the "victim" didn't want to press charges, told the officials it was an accident and that was the end of it.

This has got to be the biggest non-story of the year.

Here's a good OPed that sums up the press corps' actions quite nicely.

Quote:

The shooting party
By Tony Blankley
February 15, 2006

In the absence of any pressing news these days — other than Iran's nuclear weapons development crisis, the election of Hamas terrorists in Palestine, on-going worldwide Muslim riots and killing in reaction to a cartoon, Al Gore's near sedition while speaking in Saudi Arabia, the turning over of our East Coast ports to be managed by a United Arab Emirates firm, the criminal leaking of vital NSA secrets to the New York Times, Mexican military incursions across our southern border, the Iraqi crisis, Congress's refusal to deal with the developing financial collapse of Social Security and Medicare, inter alia — the White House press corps has exploded in righteous fury over the question of the vice president's little shooting party last weekend.
As I understand the profound concern of the ever alert White House reporters, they smell a constitutional crisis because the shooting party failed to alert the media of the accidental shooting down in Corpus Christi, Texas. Well, actually they did alert the Corpus Christi media — but that didn't count. Unless the exalted ones have been formally informed by an official government press secretary, no public communication has technically occurred.
I checked the bylaws of the White House press corps, and they are right. It seems that the bylaws refer to Article XXIII of the U.S. Constitution which expressly designates that White House reporters with a minimum annual income of $375,000 (plus minimum stock options equal to not less than two-thirds their yearly salary, plus use of driver and long sedan during business hours, which hours must include post-deadline dinner engagements of a semi-social nature) are the exclusive recipients of all government information.
If information isn't hand-delivered in gold-edged paper to them while they are reclined on their chaise longue, it hasn't been released to the public. And if they don't report a fact, it hasn't happened. This provision is vital to a vigorous and independent free press. (I should note, my copy of the Constitution must be outdated, because it doesn't have an Article XXIII.)
Of course, this provision technically makes the White House press corps not reporters, but receivers — sort of glorified shipping clerks, but with the prerogative to rewrite and repackage the material before they deliver it to the public.
When an out-of-town newspaper got the scoop, the dignity of the White House press corps had been impeached, so they threw a public temper tantrum. As that has worked for many of them since their early childhood, they obviously expect it to work while on the job — to use the term loosely.
To add to their indignity, the reporter for The Washington Post went on MSNBC dressed up in a hunting costume to ridicule the vice president. (It is said that the enfeebled and debased French Dauphin, Charles VII, dressed in women's clothing to hide from Joan of Arc, who was trying to save France.)
I suppose most of us, as we rise in life, develop a sense of entitlement and pompous dignity. Doubtless we all think we are more important than we are.
As Charles de Gaulle once sardonically observed while walking past a graveyard: "that place is full of indispensable men."
But the Washington press corps, and particularly the White House press corps, has developed, as an institution, a grossly dilated view of itself. Most of us can tolerate arrogance, if it is accompanied by extraordinary capacity and virtuosity. The brilliant scientist, the war-winning general, the great artists are entitled to their pride.
But the hallmark of the Washington press corps these days is mediocrity, groupthink, a lack of curiosity and rampant careerism. These attributes were all on show in the shooting-party incident. But this is just a trivial incident — except for the poor, shot gentleman who suffered a heart attack, may he recover fully and quickly.
We live at a moment of revolutionary change in the international order. The rise and violenceofradical,possibly caliphate-forming Islam and the huge, culture-changing, unexamined consequences of rampant globalization make the present one of the least predictable moments to be alive.
Both government officials and citizens are in desperate need of a national press corps that is alive to the change and digging to find factual hints of the near future. We need the kind of future-oriented intellectual vigor, curiosity and genuine iconoclasm that typified American reporters in the first half of the last century.
Instead, as the shooting-party incident exemplified, we have in the White House at the most elite level of American journalism, self-absorbed, self-important men and women who stand on their prerogatives even over marginal and inconsequential matters.
Should they ever have a truly daring, creative, productive, hard-researched idea about what is going on in this dangerous world — they should alert the media.

http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20060...2148-1710r.htm
but its so blatently biased you might as well forget you ever read it.

stevo · 02-16-2006, 12:23 PM

TSG has the police report. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...61cheney1.html as you can see in the report the Kennedy County Sherrifs Office was contacted right after the accident. All this talk about with holding information about the incident is because the whitehouse didn't call a press conference immediately. so yeah they "witheld" the info from the press corps and contacted the local paper instead. oooooh conspiracy.

Oh, and it was a 28 gauge.

Poppinjay · 02-16-2006, 12:30 PM

So, any time an event like this happens to a republican, we have to add the caveat, "oh, but let's remember Kennedy drove off a bridge with a young woman in his car when he was 28".

OK, gotcha.

Marvelous Marv · 02-16-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

How so? Has this board been ripe with people defending Kennedy's driving record?

No, as a matter of fact, the silence has been deafening.

stevo · 02-16-2006, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

So, any time an event like this happens to a republican, we have to add the caveat, "oh, but let's remember Kennedy drove off a bridge with a young woman in his car when he was 28".

OK, gotcha.

"...when he was 28 and drunk." But yeah, that would be nice.

kutulu · 02-16-2006, 02:33 PM

Bringing up TK is retarded. It was a different time and people got away with a lot if you had the connections. Drunk driving was also treated differently than it is today. If that happened to him today, he WOULD be arrested and charged with manslaughter, rightly so.

I'd like to think that we hold ourselves to a higher standard these days where everyone is held to the same laws but apparently you don't.

maximusveritas · 02-16-2006, 03:45 PM

I don't understand what the point is about bringing up Chappaquiddick either. Obviously, the fact that we're still talking about it today, so many years later, shows that it was a big deal. So why isn't what Cheney did a big deal also? I think the only hypocrisy here is coming from those who are saying that the Cheney incident isn't a big deal, while the Kennedy one still is even after all these years.
I guess I should just be happy someone hasn't tried to blame this on Clinton.

kutulu · 02-16-2006, 04:06 PM

Oh, and for the record, criminal charges were filed against TK and he did plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accidenct resulting in an injury. The punishment was little more than a slap on the wrist but based on the previous responses its rather apparent that the right woudl have a heart attack if anything like that happened to Cheney.

There was also a grand jury regarding the matter but no indictment was issued. Again, the right are bound to get their panties a bunch if that happened as well.

I can hear the "OMG BUT <insert Dem politician here> DID IT TOO!11! now.

02-15-2006, 08:19 AM	#122 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Accidental death 99% of the time falls into manslaughter. The main thing with manslaughter is murder without malice or intent to cause harm while doing something illegal (like trespassing), however, manslaughter is also applied in most cases where the offender isn't doing anything illegal (ie: driving and his tire blows out and hits some kids). A popular example would be self-defense. If someone robs you or attacks you, you have every right to defend yourself to protect your safety. You aren't doing anything illegal, yet if you happen to kill them, you'll get slapped with manslaughter. It's nothing terribly lengthy.. maybe 6 months to a year, but still.. it's utterly ridiculous. Most of the time, unless there's a dire reason to do otherwise, a person will serve time for the most ridiculous accidents. Just happens to be a blunder of our justice system that we unfortunately have to deal with, but... it's the way things are for everyone. Now... negligence while hunting is on a completely different level, and a bit more serious, than "whoops, my tire blew out and I killed your kid," or, "he broke into my house, so I shot at him to protect my family." There are always charges involved. If I get time later, I'll serach on Google for articles involving hunting accidents. Even in the most simple of cases, and basic of accidents (where no one died), each person was charged with "careless use of a firearm" that resulted in a small term. I don't think there was ever a case where the person just walked free and had the entire situation expedited within a few days. __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 02-15-2006 at 08:22 AM..

02-15-2006, 09:15 AM	#123 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	regarding the secrecy and turning away the local deputy... Does anyone remember the last time that local texas lawmen and the secret service got in to a pushing and shoving match?? nothing happened then and nothing is going to happen now. Nothing will happen in the future because we, as a society, in our liberalized effort to 'socialize' our government have given the federal government so much damn power that this is easily gotten away with, even expected. This will not change no matter whether its a democrat or republican in office because every time something tragic happens (katrina for example) the first ones we blame are the feds. The majority are practically ignoring the responsibility at the state and local level.....why do we even have mayors and governers? Bottom line, if you want to be able to hold the federal office holders accountable for their actions, you need to start electing people that are actually willing to make the fed government less powerful and you don't do that by playing dem vs rep, you do that by electing libertarians. Until then, this is all just a game to see who can make the other look worse. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

02-15-2006, 09:31 AM	#124 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	The problem here lies in partisanship. IF Cheney were to be investigated over this, the GOP talking heads from Limbaugh down to these boards would scream how it was all a giant partisan witch hunt and put public pressure on to let him get away with it.... and if the man dies.... Cheney will literally have gotten away with homocide (taking another man's life accidental or not). Is it fair.... NO But that is the climate of the country right now. The hatred and partisanship allows the politicians to get away with whatever the fuck they want because all they have to do is rally the "partisan witch hunt" cry. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 02-15-2006 at 10:19 AM..

02-15-2006, 11:02 AM	#125 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Absolutely true, Pan. How do we stop it? Is there a way to achieve justice without being accused of being Partisan? What justice is warranted in this situation? I think the SS should be held accountable for obstruction and Cheney should tell the public what happened (and soon) and come clean with everything. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

02-15-2006, 11:29 AM	#126 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	Maybe I should post this on Tilted Weapons, but... Now personally, I don't give a poop if the White House delayed telling the press about Deadeye Dick's Shoting Adventure. But the story just isn't adding up. The guy approached from the rear. Cheney spun over 90 degrees(?) and shot him at a distance of 30 yards. Cheney was using a shotgun slightly smaller than a 20 gauge, yet managed to puncture his heart with BIRDSHOT... at 90 feet away? Wha? I can't even kill a BIRD with birdshot 90 feet away. Doesn't that seem pretty damn unlikely? __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

02-15-2006, 12:12 PM	#130 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	Well we get to hear his story tonight on guess which GOP friendly cable news network????? Personally, something like this should not be allowed to be just on 1 single network, this should be a full blown press conference with ANY news agency that wants to be there. Talk about true bullshit now. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

02-15-2006, 12:33 PM	#131 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	The administration would MUCH rather be dealing with this than with the new batch of Abu Graib photos that just got released. This is spin control again. It's even better, because this time we think we've GOT them on something. Stay alert--all SORTS of stuff is going to start blipping on the radar and vanishing under the Shotgun Cheney story.

02-15-2006, 12:39 PM	#132 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	/Ben brings in Tilted Weapons, Tilted Knowledge into one post: There are different gauges of shotgun, and I have shot 12 and 20 gauge. I saw a 10 gauge once, but it looked too scary to fire. The higher the gauge number, the smaller the barrel; Why? The gauge is a measurement of diameter of lead balls that weigh one pound. These balls were often used in commerce and trade when scales were used but before a big standard unit of measure. Thus, 7 gauge means that 7 lead balls of equal size will weigh one pound. 12 gauge is popular for its ballistic properties, I guess. Secondly, there are DOZENS of different types of "Birdshot", ranging from (help me out here, duckhunters) #3 to #9. The larger the number, the finer the pellets. #9 birdshot is like sand, I think. The different types of birdshot produce different effects on different types of fowl at different ranges. Therefore, if you are a hunter and you know exactly what you are doing, you would chose a 20 gauge over/under shotgun with #7 on top and #3 on the bottom. Thirdly, there are different types of CHOKES available for your barrel. A choke is a little tube-like thing that concentrates (or disperses, whichever way you look at it) the pattern of pellets at different ranges. The Choke (and your barrel) are threaded, so you can change one for the other. Types of chokes include Full, Modified, Sporting, et cetera. Finally, to conclude: damage when hit at 30 yards with a shotgun blast (full or partial) would depend on: A: Gauge of shotgun B: Ammunition being used. C: Choke pattern used in the barrel. 12 gauge, #3 birdshot with full choke would seriously fuck you up at 30 yards. 20 gauge, #9 shot with modified choke would not even make it that far. (I think, help me out here, birdhunters). __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

02-15-2006, 01:10 PM	#134 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	I'm thinking 20 gauge w/ #9 shot is what I used to use for doves and quail. The gun the VP used as a funky gauge - 22.6?? It was bit smaller. A 12 guage would not be appropriate for quail. You'd have nothing left but feathers. Hell, anything that would pierce a man's heart at 90 feet would not be appropriate for small birds. You'd vaporize the little buggers. __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

02-15-2006, 01:12 PM	#135 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Maybe Whittington was naked at the time of the shooting. Old people's skin can be very thin. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-15-2006, 01:19 PM	#137 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Sometimes, mal...just sometimes...you scare me, the way your mind works. Thanks for that image. ewwww Do you have any idea just how many hours I'm going to have to spend in the TB, just to get rid of that? __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

02-15-2006, 01:29 PM	#139 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Cheney and Wittington were having a little too much Wild Turkey and little bit of Brokeback action when Cheney's gun accidentally went off... Makes sense to me. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

02-15-2006, 04:54 PM	#140 (permalink)
msh58 Crazy	thought shotgun cheney did well in his interview and his friend seems to be stabilizing. so i guess it wasn't his plan for campaign finance reform, take money from the donor than shoot them.

02-15-2006, 07:25 PM	#142 (permalink)
Superbelt This vexes me. I am terribly vexed. Location: Grantville, Pa	It was a 24 gauge. Which has somewhere around 250 pellets in it. And Wittington caught over 200 in his body according to the hospital. No way in hell he was 90 feet away. He probrably wasn't more than 20 feet away. This guys face is probrably pulp. ... So, in his interview with Pravda he admitted to drinking 1 beer about 4-5 hours prior. Others who were at the retardo-bird slaughter event were later interviewed as saying he had several beers before going out. And the Hospital has given a no comment as to whether or not the guy who got gunned down had alcohol in his system. Which is effectively saying, we won't tell you HOW MUCH alcohol was in his blood. They were at least buzzing out there. It really grabs me the wrong way knowing someone under so much public scrutiny is going to get away with ignoring law enforcement. At least the idea that Wittington is at fault for intercepting Cheney's birdshot will be dying down after the interview.

02-15-2006, 08:39 PM	#144 (permalink)
Plaid13 I want a Plaid crayon	Sucks that the old guy got shot but... its funny and scary as hell that this is the quality of people that run this country. 30 yards away with bird shot isnt too bad but hitting a guy that old with anything could be very bad. hes just lucky it wasnt buck shot. For him to shoot that guy from that far away he must of shot at that bird when it was very low to the ground. im not sure but i always thought it was illegal to shoot at a bird that was below head level. But that could just be common safty sence.

02-15-2006, 11:08 PM	#145 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	More clarifications: 1. The news report I saw said that the pellet "traveled" to Whittington's heart. It didn't "pierce" it. 2. Cheney said he had a beer at lunch, and they went out hunting two hours later. He said no one else drank anything. I'm not swearing it's true, but that's what he said. 3. Cheney said the reason for delaying release of the matter was because they wanted to inform Whittington's family prior to having it all over the media. 4. There is no truth to the rumor that the Texas Longhorns wore their orange jerseys at the White House yesterday because they heard Cheney would be there. __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

02-16-2006, 08:57 AM	#147 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	My initial reaction to this shooting accident is sympathy for Whittington and Cheney. I imagine Cheney must feel terrible about shooting his friend/aquantance. The only thing that would change my feelings is if it is shown that he was drunk. Everything else is just politics and this seems like an accident that could happen to anybody.

02-16-2006, 10:26 AM	#152 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Oh, I didn't think he was pointing out hypocrisy. I thought he was proving my point that politicians act above the law. (Which he did very well, thanks) __________________ I love lamp.

02-16-2006, 12:23 PM	#154 (permalink)
stevo Rail Baron Location: Tallyfla	TSG has the police report. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive...61cheney1.html as you can see in the report the Kennedy County Sherrifs Office was contacted right after the accident. All this talk about with holding information about the incident is because the whitehouse didn't call a press conference immediately. so yeah they "witheld" the info from the press corps and contacted the local paper instead. oooooh conspiracy. Oh, and it was a 28 gauge. __________________ "If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

02-16-2006, 12:30 PM	#155 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	So, any time an event like this happens to a republican, we have to add the caveat, "oh, but let's remember Kennedy drove off a bridge with a young woman in his car when he was 28". OK, gotcha. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

02-16-2006, 02:33 PM	#158 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Bringing up TK is retarded. It was a different time and people got away with a lot if you had the connections. Drunk driving was also treated differently than it is today. If that happened to him today, he WOULD be arrested and charged with manslaughter, rightly so. I'd like to think that we hold ourselves to a higher standard these days where everyone is held to the same laws but apparently you don't.

02-16-2006, 03:45 PM	#159 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I don't understand what the point is about bringing up Chappaquiddick either. Obviously, the fact that we're still talking about it today, so many years later, shows that it was a big deal. So why isn't what Cheney did a big deal also? I think the only hypocrisy here is coming from those who are saying that the Cheney incident isn't a big deal, while the Kennedy one still is even after all these years. I guess I should just be happy someone hasn't tried to blame this on Clinton.

02-16-2006, 04:06 PM	#160 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	Oh, and for the record, criminal charges were filed against TK and he did plead guilty to leaving the scene of an accidenct resulting in an injury. The punishment was little more than a slap on the wrist but based on the previous responses its rather apparent that the right woudl have a heart attack if anything like that happened to Cheney. There was also a grand jury regarding the matter but no indictment was issued. Again, the right are bound to get their panties a bunch if that happened as well. I can hear the "OMG BUT <insert Dem politician here> DID IT TOO!11! now.