Should I have sympathy for poor drivers who kill themselves?
 

This article tells the story of how a mother and her four year old child died while driving under poor conditions on a "dangerous road."
Now, it is of popular opinion that the road is dangerous and that the canal should be moved so that that road is less dangerous.

Now, I'm a brand new driver. I just recently got my G2 license (one step below getting a permanent driver's license) and rented a car just last weekend. It was my first time driving by myself, driving on the highway, and driving in the city (I took a road trip to Toronto). The weather that Saturday was horrible. It was raining slush (or snowing rain, take your pick), so while it continued to rain(snow), the slush was just piling up on the road instead of draining away like rain would have, making the road extremely dangerous. In my Toyota Echo, I couldn't exceed 80 km/h without hydroplaning , even while driving in the tracks of the car in front of me. Yet, I managed to drive 100 km, twice, without incident. How? Because I was careful and vigilant.

Now, I have all the sympathy in the world for the child of the idiot mother who drove along the Holland Marsh Canal without slowing down enough to see in front of her and to stop on time. It is the most basic safety precaution in driving. If the conditions are slippery, slow down. If your visibility is limited, slow down! This includes rain, snow, fog, the dark, and even corners!

So, I see this as another case of people killing themselves with their own idiocy, except that this one took her child with her. And, to top it all off, people are blaming the road. It wasn't the road, it was the driver!

Am I being too critical? Does anyone have another point of view on this issue?

I think you are being hypocritical... you admit the road conditions were bad... and you were hyroplaning going above a certain speed - but yet, you went above that speed, not once but twice...

Every driver in the world thinks they are so careful and safe... Maybe this mother had the same mindset you did.. she thought she was being safe...

She may have been driving slow. You don't know the specific conditions. If you want to feel superior and real smart that's your business.

There is a reason they call them.....Accidents.

It makes no mention of the speed she was driving at, so how do you know she was driving unsafely? Also, it is fucking ludicrous to say that we should just ignore dangerous conditions and then blame it on the people when they get hurt by them. The road is dangerous to people who have never driven it before and don't know it. You think it should be allowed to remain unsafe simply because it's possible to not die on it if you drive slow enough?

The arrogance of youth.

When you have your first accident let us know.

some people in SUVs think it means 4WD and that even if they have 4WD that it means they can drive as fast as they want and still be safe. Most avid 4WD friends I have that actually take their SUVs off roading drive them at around 10MPH most of the time when off road and usually even slower. These drivers aren't just the ones I know from California but the ones in Iceland as well.

To answer the title of the post directly - yes, you should unless you're a cold bastard lacking basic empathy. Think about it, this is a mother and child that died in a horrible way. You have no way of knowing why they were on the road or what the circumstances of the accident were. Maybe the kid had a fever and they were on their way to the hospital. Maybe they got surprised by the weather and never intended to be out that late.

By your own admission, KnifeMissle, you're not an experienced driver and you don't even have a permanent license. Obviously you are prone to make similar mistakes as this poor woman, so I don't think that you have any room to criticize. In cases like this, you should probably be thinking "There but for the Grace of God go I."

Adjust your attitude.

I used to think like you did. Then I drove for a few years. There's nothing that will completely change your mind but a little experience and maturity. I was there - I know.

My post here was rather unproductive and not very nice...

I decided to remove it.

Precisely. Sometimes shit just happens. You pulled a very stupid move when you went 20 over what you thought was safe (which, since you're inexperienced, probably means 40-50 over what was actually safe - just because you're not hydroplaning doesn't mean you have sufficient control in the slop). You could have easilly wrecked your car, maybe even died. And yet then you have the audacity to get mad at some woman for slipping off of a road that's been listed as very dangerous.

We don't know from the article how exactly the Jeep got in there. Maybe the mother swerved to avoid an animal or pedestrian. Stranger things have happened. I think that labeling these deaths with the broad stroke of "idiocy" is unnecessary and unqualified in this instance.

I lived in the Upper midwest of the US for my first 25 years of driving, and I never had an accident in winter weather, even as a teenager learning to drive. I moved to Connecticut and had a snow-related accident within 3 weeks. The midwest is colder and more arid than Connecticut, and snow here in CT has a higher moisture content than in the Dakotas. There is more water mixed with the snow in general, and it melts more than sublimates -- it's more slippery on the road. Who knew? My accident was T-boning a parked car on a deserted street at about 8 mph. Was I an idiot? I think I simply encountered something I hadn't encountered before, even though I am a safe and experienced driver. I'm also thankful no one was hurt.

Something happened, a car crashed, and the woman and her child died. That's sad, first and foremost. Secondly, we don't know exactly what happened. We can make slightly educated guesses, but there were no witnesses to the crash, according to the article. Third, simply believing that you are a vigilant and careful driver doesn't make accident victims idiots. Fourth, the design of the road very clearly played a part in this accident, according to the people interviewed in the article. And lastly, if you claim to be 1) a new (thus inexperienced) driver, 2) driving at highway speeds in hydroplaning conditions, and 3) exceeding those speeds, I think your behavior speaks for your judgement as a driver. You seem far luckier than vigilant, based on what you wrote about your own driving in inclement conditions. I genuinely hope you don't need to slide off the road into a canal to find that out.

u obviously dont know anyone whos been hurt in an accident before....

As a 20 year driver who was out driving in that same weather this weekend about 3 miles south of where Ms. Read and her daughter were killed (they were killed in Bradford, I was in Newmarket) and being familiar with the stretch of road I can see the accident happening. It was tricky enough driving on new tires on ploughed main roads like the 404 and Davis Drive. On Canal Rd. anything could have happened.

Like others here have said..wait till you have an accident (odds are you will).

One of the worst things you can do as a driver, is project a character onto other drivers. If everyone who passes you, tailgates, swerves, short-brakes and so on, is an "idiot", then your in for a miserable life behind the wheel. With an adversarial approach like that, you'll develop more aggressive (ie: dangerous) driving habits, and probably give yourself an ulcer in the process. This is where road rage comes from.

Even the best drivers make mistakes, or don't spot a hazard from time to time. We're all making the same trip with the same distractions. Never presuppose the situation.

Ok everyone, pick the funniest response out of the following:
A. Probability. :lol:
B. You played the probability game and won. :lol: You should know about this being a Computer Scientist. :lol:
C. Quantum mechanics? :lol:
D. "Shut the hell up, n0nsensical, you are such a fucking nerd. :lol:"

I agree with what people said previously about experience and not knowing the facts of the incident. The only thing I'll add is that many of you are misinterpreting part of KM's post:

He was saying that he drove 100 km, not 100 km/h.

also to add, cars are mechanical objects, they have mechanical failures from time to time that YOU cannot control, but have to respond to.

My mother of all people used to have to certify at a driving school each year as part of having a corporate fleet vehicle. They took her out in a remote controlled type vehicle where they could do things like lock a brake on one side to cause the car to swerve and spin out, kill the engine, and other things that help one simulate a potential issue and learn how to respond quickly and safely.

Anytime a mother and child die, regardless of circumstances, most people do have sympathy. The fact that you have to question whether or not you should speaks more about your soul than it does driving conditions

Point well taken. My carelessness, my mistake. I apologize.

Youth? He's 31 years old.
Still...your point is very well taken.

Take it from someone that's been driving for more years than many of you have been alive...shit can happen in an instant. Yes, there will always be those that will try to drive the posted limit, and more, on sheet ice, but that type of stupidity aside...it really takes nothing at all to go from having control...to being completely out of control. Experience will teach you how to regain control.

It was an accident. Nothing more. Poor kid. Poor mom. I can't even imagine...

Y'know...I had to go back and reread it. You're right. Good catch there, kutulu. I read the same as everyone else. Wonder why that is. Something subliminal in there? Did we subconciously want to catch him driving carelessly? Interesting.

Oh well...back to work.

By this I would assume he was quite young, first time driving alone at 31? :hmm:

no... not necessarily. My wife got her licence at 32, when she needed it for work.

but at any rate, it appears that the lady who went into the canal did so as she was talking on her cell phone to her friend:

Link: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1139267414390

Story:

Mom on cell as SUV skidded
Keswick woman, son drown in canal near Bradford
Mother had just warned her to stay off phone, drive slowly
Feb. 7, 2006. 05:27 AM
JIM WILKES
STAFF REPORTER


Police say Cassandra Read was talking to a friend on her cellphone when her car slid out of control on an icy road and into a canal near Bradford.

The 32-year-old Keswick woman and her 4-year-old son drowned before rescuers could find her submerged SUV Saturday night.

South Simcoe police initially said Read had called a 911 emergency operator for help after her Toyota 4Runner went into the canal about 7 p.m. and disappeared beneath the murky waters.

"She was talking to her friend on a cellphone when she lost control," Traffic Sgt. Steve Wilson said yesterday. He said the friend, Crystal Pittman of Bradford, alerted police and told them where to look along Canal Rd., just east of Highway 400.

"It will be crucial to talk to the friend she was talking to on the cellphone to find out exactly what was said," he explained.

Pittman refused to speak with reporters yesterday about the tragedy.

"It's just too much torture for her," said Pittman's husband Earl.

Wilson refused to speculate on whether using the phone contributed to the accident, but said cellphones "are distraction, no doubt about it."

He said Read's car was not equipped for hands-free cellphone use.

Less than an hour before the accident, Read's mother had urged her not to use the phone as she drove home from a day trip to a flea market near Kitchener.

"She phoned me when she got out of Orangeville on Highway 9 and she said the roads were bad," Brenda Read told the Toronto Star.

"I said to her, `Just put your truck in four-wheel drive and keep your foot off the gas and get off the cellphone so you can concentrate on driving'."

Police have given the same advice to motorists for years.

"They're a distraction," Wilson said. "Every week we investigate collisions or we see drivers out on the road that are crossing the centre line, they're not paying attention, being distracted.

"If you're going to use a cellphone and it doesn't have hands-free, pull over and talk on the side of the road. Keep both hands on the steering wheel, adjust your driving according to the weather conditions."

He said the tragic accident was among dozens across the area over the weekend.

"It's just people driving too fast for the road conditions," he said. "The speed limit on a road may be 80, but 50 kilometres may be too fast, depending on how icy the road is.

"People take unnecessary risks and they don't have to."

Wilson said conditions along winding Canal Rd. Saturday night were icy and slushy.

"It is a dark road," he said. "You're going from pavement to open water in less than a metre.

"There's no forgiveness on that roadway. If you lose control on that road, you're in the water."

There have been 19 deaths in the canals in the past 52 years.

Bradford West Gwillimbury Mayor Frank Jonkman said town officials have been trying for more than a decade to get approval and funding from senior government levels to shift the canals and create a land buffer between them and the road.

Art Janse, the town's drainage superintendent, said it would cost $4.5 million to install guardrails along the road, but said peat fill that the road is built on isn't stable enough to hold railings in place.

Jonkman said yesterday it's finally time to cut through years of bureaucratic red tape and begin the $18 million, five-year project to shift the canal and dike system, which keeps water from flooding the fertile Holland Marsh farmlands.

"We've had a number of fatalities on the canals over the years and to people in the community it's nothing new," Jonkman said. "They've heard it all before."

He said he hopes senior government levels will listen now that the canal has claimed two more lives.

So does Read's father.

"Maybe it can stir something up to get the road fixed like the mayor wants," he said.

"But all that comes from something like this is sadness and sorrow. It's a real heartache."

Wilson said a counselling team from York Region police will meet with officers and firefighters who pulled Read and her son Taylor Grasby from the submerged car and tried unsuccessfully to revive them.

They are to be buried Thursday.

"It was very difficult for a lot of our officers, because they have small children," Wilson said. "They can relate."

See what happens when you assume? ;)

Regardless...your overall point was well taken.

Aww, fuck and goddamn. :mad:
What, in the hell, was that important? :confused:
I guess only Crystal Pittman knows for sure. :(

I have many friends who don't have a license to drive because NYC has good public transportation, same for friends in London.

I was equally shocked in the mid90's when my boss was telling me that she was getting her license at age 36 and buying her first car. I was shocked because I grew up in LA and that's as car centric as you can get.

Here in Colorado we've had two or three accidents involving teenagers not paying attention. In the one that comes to mind first, a teenage male is busy fuckin' around in his car and ends up killing his two passengers. I don't feel sorry for these kids at all. The other that comes to mind is a kid that was busy texting his girlfriend and... died. Don't feel sorry for him either.


If your too fuckin' stupid to know that when you drive you should ONLY be driving. You need to die. Get off my roads and let me drive in peace without worrying that some dipshit teenager isn't gonna ram into me cause he was too busy playin' with his stereo and textin' his 'homies' to drive.


I fuckin' hate teenagers and I'm only 25.

exactly the case here, my wife was raised as a downtown Toronto girl, where she either walked or used the streetcar/subway to get around.

I, on the other hand, got my learner's permit when the office opened on my 16th brithday. Living in a small town kinda drove one towards getting licenced (no pun intended).

The original poster asked here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=100870
Does cell phone use while driving deserve a law?



Perhaps it does :)

Okay what I don't understand is why the Mother didn't roll down the windows to get out of the car. Doesn't everyone know that the hydrostatic pressure exerts a force on the doors so that you can't open them in water? Anyways -if you're car ever goes in the water -get out by rolling down the windows.

Yes, I feel sorry for them.

If the truck was in the water, it could have short-circuited the electrical system. If it had power windows, there's no way to get them down without fixing the electrical system.

Exactly - no power, no window exit. It's a nasty situation. We used to live in the same town (Keswick) as Ms. Read, though we did not know her, there's still that small town connection.

Somewhere around here is a thread about drivers that do not obey the warning signs for closed roads and whatnot and if everyone should pay for their rescues and such. That is an entirely different situation than this. And regardless if this was the mother's fault or not, that child died likely very frightened through no fault of its own. And these deaths certainly were not natural selections that we like to call Darwinisms.

Thank you, kutulu, for actually reading my post and clearing it up for others.
Thanks, meembo, for your kind apology.

Okay, I admit that my reaction was harsh and presumptuous (much like Ustwo's assertion of my youth). It's just that the end of the article and the TV newscast where I had learned of the incident seemed to absolve the mother of any responsibility and totally blamed the road and weather conditions. So much so that the canal should be moved so that these accidents won't be so fatal.

I think it would be more appropriate to tell people to be more careful and to slow down when driving conditions are bad. Really, you're not likely to drive off the road at 5 km/h. I learned this lesson my first day of driving and I'm pretty sure she'd been driving for a while...

I have no sympathy if the following people kill themselves in a vehicle:

1) Dumbasses on motorcycles doing wheelies in and out of traffic @ 100 mph.
2) Dumbasses in shiny cars that mommy and daddy bought, drag racing in traffic.
3) Dumbasses who drink and drive.

Unfortunately most of those people wind up killing other people instead of themselves.

And although talking on a cel phone in a snowstorm on a windy road next to a canal is a dumbass thing to do, I don't think she deserved to die for it.

I'll add my apology for the speed bit as well - I also misread that as 100kph.

And now that we know she was on a cell phone, yes she screwed up. Bigtime. But that doesn't mean i feel no sympathy or compassion for her, and especially for her child, who didn't have any choice in the matter.

And it also doesn't mean that I'm going to go around calling various drivers idiots. I've made mistakes too, and I've probably driven more miles than any two people here combined, unless we have a semi driver I don't know about. In a slow year I'll put 50,000 miles on my newscar alone, and then another 20-30k on my personal car, and that's not counting miles on the live/satellite trucks ;) You WILL make mistakes. You have already made them. No, you were not going 100kph, but you were going fast enough to hydroplane.

I think some blame also should be placed on the driver training system. People in the United States (and probably Canada too since you guys didn't drive any differently than we do when I was up there a few years ago) don't know how to drive. They're not taught how to drive. They spend the majority of their driver education in the classroom, and what little seat time they get is largely used to learn about parallel parking and slow driving through neighborhoods. No controlling the car at the limits, no skid avoidance, nothing. It's pathetic, and it may have contributed to this woman's death.


Regarding moving the canal - I have trouble seeing how moving the canal would be much more effective than a good, solid safety rail.

i feel bad for the mom and kid, i'd imagine she was trying to drive as safely as she could with a kid in the car.

but when the weathers bad and i'm trying to drive safely and a driver flies by me and i see them in the next ditch i just keep on going, don't usually wave to them though on the way by.

I don't care if you have to do 2mph the whole way- if the conditions warrant it, you slow down.

Here in Florida, when it rains, it RAINS. Many times, traffic on a major highway will slow down to 15mph (from a normal 60 or 65) because the rain is coming down so heavily.

Responsible driving includes slowing down under imperfect driving conditions, and maintaining your full attention even moreso than normal. So, the idiot was driving full speed and talking on her phone while plowing her SUV through a slushy mess.

They didn't deserve to die, and I do have sympathy, but I also have to shake my head at the colossal stupidity. Accidents are accidents when normal human preventative measures were taken, and some small degree of human error caused a problem- an accident is NOT when someone blatantly ignores shitty drivign conditions and talks on their phone at the same time, it's an invitation to trouble.

My grandmother is 83, she's never driven in her whole life. Many people, especially those living in large cities, rely heavily on public transportation. I love when people say "the arrogance of youth" when they have no clue what they're talking about. Those not-so-youthful are perfectly capable of arrogance as well, but they pass off their assholish behavior and snap-judgments as "experience". And i'm not just talking about one person in this thread, either.

I'll tell you what kind of experience I have- I have almost 25 years' worth of experience in not being an asshole or self-righteous prick. I was born in 81, do the math.

My gramps was a rally racer and also a car mechanic(on big competitions such as 24 Heures Du Mans and Formula 1 races). Needless to say, his reflexes, until age 65-70 were lightning fast (if you've seen a rally race from the inside of a cockpit, you know what I mean).
However, it didn't prevent him from getting in an accident while driving "normally" one day, partly because of bad weather conditions (and he was focused and cautious) when he was in his forties. He said he was lucky to not die that day; I think so, too, because most accidents depend on the unpredictable. I'm not gonna say chaos theory, but its the smallest things that often lead to horrible consequences.
I agree with Bill o rights: Nobody should assume anything from events that we're not sure about. For all we know, the girl could've put her hands on the mom's eyes... (My younger sister did that once to my dad as a game because she saw it in a stupid kid's movie and wasn't old enough to know better.) The point is, only God knows exactly what made the car go off road.
And experience may lessen the probability of an accident, but no matter what, it remains an <b>accident</b>.
Of course, feel sympathy, because it could happen to you (or anyone around you) tomorrow. But more importantly, develop awareness and learn from tragedies like this.

I can't speak for any other US drivers, but I spent no time during my driver's training in a classroom. The entirety of it was spent on the road, either with one of my parents or an instructor, driving through neighborhoods, on interstates, on backroads, in good conditions, bad conditions, etc. So yes, I can say that I was taught how to drive.

Imagine if instead of Drivers Ed, or your (possibly poor driving) parents teaching one to drive, it were looked at as more of a privledge than a right, and we had to take real driver training.

Somewhere on closed roads, with an instructer right there to help you learn all the nuances, to practice skid avoidance, and recovering from a skid, all those little things that a summer driving next to mom can NOT teach.

When I got my license, I was a very confident driver. I thought I was a great driver. And in the sense that I knew the laws, I was very good at being aware of vehicle size and placement, I was. But I did not know how to deal with sliding sideways down a road at 55 mph, because I came over a ridge and hit a 5 inch deep drift wrong... Didn't get hurt, car was driveable.

Later that same winter, driving in slush, and going about 5 mph faster around a nasty turn at the bottom of a hill than I should of... Accident number two.

Around then I was severly humbled (and fucking broke) and havnt had a major altercation on the road since. Do I think I can handle any situation perfectly? Probably not. But having been in those situations (and induced a few in parking lots etc) I have enough expirience to make my first reaction to an emergency a good one...

Or at least not a detrimental one. I wish I had that expirience before I hit that drift. In the same situation now, I could have steered through it saving my car and pride.

We as americans also feel we have a right to drive for whatever reason in whatever conditions. Lets do everyone a favor and next time it might be slushing/snowing on your way home from the local flea market? Just dont go. We have weather forcasts for a reason. Someone who may not have any choice in his being on the road could get wiped out, or he could wipe out you. Its risk management.

KnifeMissile... I cant even totally support your decision to MAKE that road trip as good driving.

More of driving is in your head than at your hands and feet. Use it. If she had driver training, used her head and put down the cell, slowed down, not taken the frivilous trip, who knows? Maybe she would be alive. As it is, my sympathy goes out to everyone involved. Just because it could have been prevented doesnt change my remorse at the loss of life.

Certainly not all accidents are avoidable. A branch falling from a tree is a good example of this. But, let me ask you something... Do you think your grandfather could have avoided his accident if he were driving at half the speed he was? What about a third? A quarter? In the vast majority of situations, it is the easiest way to make a trip more safe...

While I also agree with Bill O'Rights (I don't really know what happened and I made too many assumptions) I will mention that, in your example, if the mother couldn't safely stop the vehicle the instant her daughter covered her eyes, then she was driving too fast!

No one is contesting that it was an accident. The only issue was whether the accident could have been avoided. Accidents can be avoided, you know...
And rest assured, I will learn from this mother's mistake!

In France (yup), the usual regulation to drive in inclement weather is 20 km/h below the normal speed limit. He was not going above that speed. Of course, if you drive a lot slower, you won't get in accidents, but you can't always do that..there's other cars on the road, one of which in this situation lost a bit of control.
And it doesn't take a lot of speed to lose most of your friction with the road. accidents happen. driving slow isn't the unique solution to a guaranteed safe trip, and isn't always an option.

People tend to get arrogant when they're in a 4WD car. As has been said, no one is really taught how to drive properly here in the US- have you ever watched people try to parallel park? They're supposed to know that stuff already!

Anywho, I think a lot of people get cocky when they're in a 4WD car- like having 4WD means you can take on snow and sleet and ice and be totally fine. 4WD is not a miracle, it's just what keeps you from sliding all over the road when it's covered in snow. I say these things from having a 4WD, from having parents who have 4WD, and from growing up in an area that has a lot of nasty winters where some people with 4WD just don't get it.

I feel bad for the kid- that's really sucky to have to have your life cut too short because your mom was being a moron. But as for the mom... no, I do not sympathize. There comes a certian age, in my opnion, where you have to start taking responsibility for your actions, good or bad, and accept the consequences. That is the age where sympathy should not be given unless sought after. If she were alive and had learned something from her actions, I'd empathize with her learning process. However, if she were alive and hadn't learned a thing from what happened, I'd hope it would happen to her again so she'd learn how to be a responsible person.

Yea, if you need 4wd on the road, you shouldn't be out on the road, you should be enjoying a cup of hot chocolate in your lazy boy watching it snow. I realize it isnt always an option but...

It's sad no matter what the reason that these two had to go this way. I cannot imagine the fear and hurt from dying that way. Especially for the child.

I like the idea of having more specialized driver's training than we do now. I know it can make a big difference.

My mother ended up teaching 3 of my friends as well as my brother and myself how to drive. She would take us on dirt roads through a friend's farm and tell us to do things with our junker car that ended up putting us into a skid or some other situation that we had to learn to control. Of the 5 teens she taught to drive only one of them has been in more than one accident and that was my bull headed, tempermental brother. Only two of them of the others have ever been in any accidents - both were rear ended as they waited for a chance to turn. All have been driving for over 12 years at least.

One of the most helpful things to hone my driving skills was taking a couple of one-day classes with the Skip Barber people at Laguna Seca (sp?) in CA. If you're not familiar with them, they basically teach people how to drive scaled down versions of Formula 1 cars. There's classroom work and then instruction in other cars like Neons, Vipers and trucks. You spend a lot of time figuring out the edges of the envelope on steering, brakes, etc. before they turn you loose on a track in a Formula Dodge. There are a lot of things that I picked up there that I use every day, like understanding how the car is going to move in certain situations and how to either get the car to do that or how to avoid it. Not that I drive aggressively, but it helps to be able to think ahead to how I would react if, say, someone cuts me off or the car starts to slide on ice. My attention is also focused much farther ahead than it used to be.

This kind of instruction isn't for everyone, but I think that if more people learned to drive from professionals (and your gym teacher is most certainly NOT qualified as a professional) there would be fewer accidents and much more courtesy. For instance, maybe there would be people that demonstrate some lane discipline.

A few months ago, pulling out of a motel parking lot, I drove my car off a steep embankment and ended up at the bottom of a ravine bleeding profusely, my arm mangled so badly it will never completely heal, and my brain already beginning to swell from the severe concussion. It was early in the morning, and if another driver hadn't seen me drive off the road and called 911 within seconds of the crash, I would have died there sometime in the next hour. It was a close thing as it was, with the paramedics arriving in a matter of minutes.

I was trying to reset the trip odometer, my arm got stuck in the wheel and I panicked. This would have been a colossally stupid way to die, wouldn't it?

Had I died, I'd have left behind four people who would have been strongly affected in some way. Not many, is it? Yet to those people, it would have been a major loss.

She shouldn't have been talking on her phone or overdriving the conditions, but yes, I still have sympathy for her. Such stupidity doesn't deserve death, and the people who love her don't deserve the grief they will be suffering.

Gilda

I've been meaning to post on this thread for a while, but hadn't got around to it. It's interesting what can happen in such a short time too, and i'll get to that later.

I'm mostly in agreement with knifemissile here, or at least what I think his take on the situation is. I'm 21 years old, and i've been driving on my G license in canada for about 2 months. Granted, that hasn't been too long, although I had my G2 for about a year and a half before that(for all you confused by this kind of talk, look up the canadian licensing system, it's been explained a lot of times here before). In my opinion, you are responsible for ANYTHING that your car does on the road, and there are no such things as accidents, only collisions. We are talking about a system with mechanical characteristics and known inputs and outputs, there should be NO surprises and the car never just "does what it wants".

This in no way means that you'll be collision free for your life; there is always an inherent risk when you're on the road because of unsafe drivers, but that driver does not have to be you! That's not to say I am the most highly skilled driver there is, but it's all about staying within your limits. If you can't make fast decisions, slow down. If you can't concentrate with certain events happening, or there is any chance these events might in the future influence your ability to concentrate, get rid of the distractions. If it's slippery, and that causes a loss of control, SLOW DOWN!

Just think about it. If the weather has been bad recently and your in an unfamiliar dark area, do you take it slow, analyse the conditions and make your decision on how to drive based on that, or do you talk on your cell phone and be totally oblivious to your surroundings? I'm not totally against cell phone usage at all, but it should be handsfree. By talking directly into a cellphone, you will always have one less hand on the wheel, a physical problems. You should be as physically inclined as possible when driving a vehicle, and control all the factors beyond that.

We could even go as far as to day that any mechanical problems that happen with one's vehicle are their fault as well. I can't stand it when people own devices for which they have no respect. Computers and cars seem to be the two that come up the most. Just because something seems complicated it doesn't mean that you can just disregard it. My mom has had her car since 1994...a probe...not once have I ever seen her get the transmission fluid checked, or the radiator fluid replaced. Once, she was driving her ol' fiat and the timing belt broke while driving. Even with smoke coming out of the hood, she kept driving! New engine needed as a result. Another time, she drove her probe so long with the alignment being off and scrubbed the tires down to the steel belts inside of them...new tires and an alignment needed! It's not worth the risk, or the money that it will cost you to just let things break down. Take care of your investments people, you are entrusting your life with a mechanical device, it should be treated with that idea in mind. You should know enough about cars to be able to hire a competent mechanic, or do the work yourself

If you get injured in an accident, it should be more of a "you live, you learn" attitude. You are the one who is responsible for your vehicle. I'll bet that half the population probably keeps one hand on the wheel at all times(I am guilty of it sometimes too). If you have to make a split second decision to try and avoid an accident, is it such a good idea to not have full control of the wheel? It's your own fault if you get into an accident because of this lazy habit. If I get into an accident and it could have been avoided if I had both hands on the wheel, i'll call myself an idiot as well. I won't go and blame the road, or anyone else...

On a personal note, my friend of several years totalled his car yesterday. HE was speeding down a residential road in snowy/icy conditions, lost control while making a turn and hit a tree. He's been known for testing the limits of the cars that he drives, and this was no exception(it's got AWD as well, hmm...). It was a 1995 audi 90 that he just got like a month ago. Paid about $6000 cash for it, got it registered, insured, emissions tested, etc. He loved that car, but unfortunately he's also a reckless driver that needed to be taught a lesson sooner or later. I'm glad he didn't get hurt, and of course I would have felt horrible for his family and all of his friends, me included, if he did. But I would have no sympathy for him because I knew what kind of driver he was. On the plus side, I hope he learned his lesson, being as lucky as he did. No person was injured, he didn't hit another car, the insurance company will never know, the city doesn't know, he pretty much gets off scot free and will be able to drive again without paying out the ass in insurance. But the financial hit, and losing a car that he liked so much will teach him he shouldn't be so reckless. I went and checked out the tree he hit, and oddly enough, there was evidence of another accident on the other side of the road that looked MUCH worse than what my friend did. Does that mean that we blame the road? Blame the system? Blame the city for not cleaning the road quickly enough? NO! We blame the people for driving stupidly.

There's a good lesson for all you parents out there. When your kid starts driving, put them in the biggest, oldest car you can. Give them as good of a driver education as you can. In the best case, they'll never have an accident. In the not as good case, they'll get into an accident significant enough so that they don't get permanently wounded but it teaches them to respect the road. I commend my parents for doing such a good job with me so far. Also, if you're in canada, there's only one REAL driver training school: http://www.yd.com/YoungDrivers/ . The money you'll spend in the beginning for the best driving school in Canada will end up saving you on insurance in the future, car parts in the future, and your children's lives in some cases. When I went to my insurance company with the knowledge that I took young drivers, they acknowledged it as if I had already been driving for 3 years!

Drive safe, everyone.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I mean, this is a joke, right?

Right?

Please tell me this is a joke.

Obviously some people haven't been driving long enough.

Some of you need a few more years under your belts, then you can talk to me about accidents and stupid drivers. We'll see how many stupid things you've done by that point. And trust me--you WILL do something stupid.

Honestly, i'm trying to fathom what the point of the last two posts was. I am not saying i'll never do anything stupid, but if I do, I won't throw the blame elsewhere. If I crash into something, it will be MY OWN FAULT. I won't blame the road or the car or something that distracted me, it was me behind the goddamn wheel.

Just because I don't have as much experience as some of you, doesn't mean I can't give my opinion on accidents and stupid drivers. I'd appreciate if everyone over (insert age here) would stop looking down on everyone under (insert age here) on this forum. Seems like blatant stereotyping to me.

Dude, I'm only 23, yet I know enough to know that you can't prevent accidents from happening. And yes, accidents DO happen when you're behind the wheel of a car. Have you ever hydroplaned? People lose control of their cars every day because of it, yet it's something they could not prevent. Where I live, there is usually water on the road, so yes, I drive cautiously. But even caution cannot tell you where the road is a little more rutted than usual, and where more water has gathered than you expect. How about black ice? There's another thing you can't possibly prepare for, and if you've ever hit it, it's among the scariest things imaginable.

I recently got into a spot of trouble while coming down a slightly snowy hillside. Was I going the appropriate speed? I was going well below it, actually. Do I know how to drive in snow? Yes, I've done it many times. Had I downshifted to help control my speed? Absolutely. Yet despite all of my precautions, my car went into a skid. I controlled the skid as best I could but still ended up in a snowbank. All of my passengers will agree with me when I say I did my best given the conditions and the situation. Was there anything purposeful about it? Absolutely not. There is no way I could have predicted my car would have gone into a skid, and I did absolutely everything I could to prevent it (short of putting on chains). Therefore it was--gasp!--an ACCIDENT.

I should also note no one was hurt--the only thing broken was the tow hitch that popped off when they had to pull the car out of the snowbank.

The only joke is the fact that your two posts on this thread are understandable given your nickname. Perhaps the lightheartedness is somewhat appreciated but try not to be offensive or i'll cease taking you seriously regardless of how old you are. It would be great if I stereotyped you left right and centre for being older than me but I won't.

Okay, okay, i'll agree with you that there exist accidents which are unavoidable. You're wrong about hydroplaning though; it can be avoided by going slower. I think if that amount of rain was coming down I would be going slow enough to avoid hydroplaning because my visibility out of the windshield would be greatly reduced!

One of my other friends managed to total his dad's bronco by hitting black ice, skidding into the other lane, and hitting a mercedes(thank goodness for insurance). My sister was in a van with her friend, and the friend drove right into the side of a small truck when pulling away from a stop sign. My best friend's mom ran into a guy from behind when a red light was turning green and she misjudged his speed because he didn't have any brakelights(or insurance, so he had to pay her cash, but it still clearly wasn't totally his fault). My other friend had a surprise when he was driving after a rainfall and slid about 10 feet due to the oil in the road bleeding out. Believe me, I've seen my share of driving mishaps. I guess i'm just tired of people calling everything an "accident" when most of it is easily avoidable. I think that probably about 90% of "accidents" could be avoided if people kept more space around their vehicle and slowed down a little. It's as if they're making a decision to drive bad, and i'd hardly consider that an accident. An accident is when you wet your bed because you can't subconsciously control your uterine muscles while you sleep, it's not when you hit someone from behind because you were driving too fast and didn't think your car would take that long to stop in bad weather.

Also, I've had my G1 since I was 16, so it's not like I sat behind the wheel for the first time yesterday. My dad has been driving for 45 years and he has tried to teach me everything he knows. You of all people, being 2 years older, shouldn't be talking down like that to me, and even for someone who was much older it wouldn't be appreciated/relevant. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with driving experience and everything to do with driver intelligence.

Then in that case, I guess we would be even. ;)

Let me clarify where I'm coming from. I live in a state with a great amount of rain. The basic rule states that you must drive at a speed that is reasonable and cautious for existing conditions. Even if I am only going 30 mph, it is totally within the realm of possibility that I can hydroplane. Furthermore, hydroplaning doesn't always equal existing rain. It means that there is water on the roadway. That means I could be going a cautious 60 in a 65, hit standing water, and hydroplane. Visibility also doesn't always allow you to see just how much water is on the roadway at any one point. This happens frequently around these parts, as some of our roads (I-205 before the repaving comes to mind) are quite rutted and hold on to water well.

Furthermore, if you slowed down too much on a busy interstate like I-5, you would get pulled over by the state police. People here are quite capable of driving 70 mph in a blinding rainstorm (my family calls it "driving the submarine"), and the state police don't take too kindly to people holding up traffic by going 30 below what everyone else is clocking.

As for me talking down to you, it's rare that I get the chance, as young as I am. That said, I still believe you need to clock more experience behind the wheel before you can pass judgment on what is and isn't an accident. Driving, like most things in life, is not black and white. There are always lots of mitigating factors to take into consideration, and we can't always know what those factors were or are.

Almost all acidents are human error one way or another - I think that is what blizak is trying to say. And he's right. Ask the insurance companies. Acts of God are pretty rare.

I think that Blizzak's point (an I'll bet that he put some of those snow tires on his car too - the blizzaks) is that one should Never drive outside the conditions.

This is what we are taught in driver's ed: look ahead, anticipate, leave yourself an out, drive defensively. Accidents can be prevented.

having been licenced for 31 years now, this has been a valuable strategy, and useful in a large city where I have had no accidents.

the way I see it, it's simple statistics. Just look at the accidents I've described. With the exception of my friend who hit the black ice(which although I have never encountered I would imagine is still visible and avoidable, regardless), every accident I have listed could have been avoided had the person kept more space around their vehicle, been more aware of their surroundings, had better judgement, you name it. That's 80% of the accidents that have happened to my immediate family and friends in recent years!

onesnowyowl, i'll doubt if my views on this matter will change in time, but I suppose we shall see. Ontario also has pretty damn good roads for the most part; i've never really experienced much standing water on roads. Really, I suppose we're all functions of our environments. Regardless of what's been said in this thread, I still love y'all.

oh yeah, and i've had an accident as well, happened last summer: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=90825 (pics don't seem to be around anymore)

If you want to call it that...In this case I think I can do some looking down upon. Silly new drivers.

Dammit, now I have to come out of my hole again and be the insurance geek. :D

Insurance companies pool data and swap it around like its baseball cards. They all make more money that way. One of the ways they do that is by classifying accidents as either avoidable or unavoidable. Obviously, it's a subjective decision and one insurance adjuster might make different decisions than another, but according to the latest notes that I have from a trade journal about 50% of all auto accidents are avoidable. Guess what the unavoidable percentage is - that's right, 50%. I should point out that these are US numbers for 2003.

Blizzak, as long as your list is, it still isn't a statistically significant number. If it were well into the thousands, well then we could talk. That said, all of your points about paying attention, staying in control, understanding the performance of the car in varying situations, etc. are all very valid and very valuable. As with anything else there are exceptions and there are accidents that are nobody's fault. About 15 years ago a tunnel on a major highway in Western North Carolina collasped - are the people who were in the tunnel at fault when they were crushed? How about the folks in Chicago who were killed when scaffolding blew off a building and crushed their cars? Were they at fault? Are you at fault if you have a blowout? How about if you get hit by a drunk driver going the wrong way down a highway?

To stay on topic, this poor woman may have been distracted by the cell phone and she may not have been. An animal might have run in front of her or a tree limb fell in the roadway. Maybe the kid threw a toy at mom and distracted her just long enough for the truck to go off the road. Using your definitions of accidents and collisions, both do happen, but accidents are more frequent than I think that you imagine.

It is basic human nature to try and simplify situations so that we can understand them, however things are rarely as simple as we perceive them to be. One news article isolated the road conditions (location of the canal), one focused on the cell phone, others attributed the weather as being the primary cause. The truth is probably a combination of all of these plus additional factors that no one is aware of.

Driving skill will not protect you from every accident. While it is certainly good advice to slow down when conditions are poor, you should have sympathy for the tragedy of the situation. A mother and child are dead, a family has been devastated, and we will likely never “know” exactly what caused it.

Hydroplaning can be avoided for the most part. Stay out of the water trough (move a bit to the right so your tires are on "high ground"). I amazes me how many people drive in the pooled water. Make sure your tires have good deep treads so the water has somewhere to go when you hit it. If you can put up with the road spray, stay behind a large vehicle and let him get rid of the water for you. If you see lots of water on the road ahead let off the gas, push in the cluch, and keep your wheel straight if you can.
just my thoughts...

You're trying to redefine the terms to fit your argument.

That a person's negligence contributed to an accident doesn't prevent it from being an accident. That an accident was avoidable doesn't make it not an accident. That it was unplanned does.

Do you think the girl who hit you planned that? Do you think I planned to drive my car into a ravine and nearly kill myself in the process and leave myself with a partial disability as a result?

Everyone does foolish things while behind the wheel, gets distracted while changing the radio station or when a child in the back seat begins to cry or after having a bad day at work, or when misjudging whether we've had enough rest to drive.

It's the luck of the draw whether there happens to be, in my case, a guard rail next to an empty lot or an unguarded deep ravine. It's the luck of the draw whether there's another car approaching in the other lane when we hit a patch of black ice.

I'm not saying that talking on a cell phone or driving after drinking, or changing cd's or overdriving conditions shouldn't be condemned, and we shouldn't hold those who drive dangerously responsible for their carelessness. Of course we should. People should be educated about what safe driving is and isn't, should be trained in how to drive safely, and held accountable for their actions. Absolutely society should do those things.

When I was a teenager in the rural midwest, I lived in an area that had been thoroughly strip mined. There were "strip pits", pools of various sizes all over the place, all of them filled to different depths with water year round. Sometimes the larger ones were stocked with fish and used as fishing holes.

On four different occasions while I was in high school, someone driving on narrow, rural, unlit roads in deep fog drove their car down a boat-loading ramp and into the water of a strip pit. In one case, it was a couple on their way home from the prom, a seventeen-year-old-boy and his 15-year-old-date, and they both drowned. Was the boy responsible for his own death and that of his girlfriend? Of course, he was at least partially responsible, but the consequences of his actions greatly outweighed whatever he deserved as a result of his foolish driving in those conditions. That he did something foolish in no way means that this isn't a catastrophe for both of the kids involved, their families, their friends, and the community that lost them.

We can teach safe driving, educate people about dangerous driving practices such as cell phones and driving drunk and overdriving conditions, and apply appropriate penalties for those actions while at the same time recognizing that they're not doing these things on purpose, that the loss of good people to poor decisions is a loss nonetheless.

Gilda

Hydroplaning is a directly related to the speed you are travelling at.

It's not that hard to avoid hydroplaning.

In the intrest of being civil:

blizzak, YOU CAN NOT SEE BLACK ICE!! That's why they call it BLACK ICE!! Having lived in an area where there's black ice often during the winter, I can vouch for the fact that, even if driving slowly and cautiously, black ice (for the most part) can not be avoided because it simply cannot be seen.
There are plenty of cases made by many people here saying what they do and do not consider an "accident." If something happening had nothing to do with me, then it's an accidnet. The guy ramming the end of my car while I'm trying to park because he tried to turn left on a yellow light is not my fault. I mean, what am I supposed to do- get out of my car and set up road flares for half a block so no one will come near my car while I'm trying to parallell park?

I've done plenty of stupid stuff in my car over the years, and I've avoided triple that number of stupid stuff. You cannot avoid every accident, you can just do whatever you can do to make sure you're not the cause of an accident.

blizzak, read my post again. I disagree with you. The most skilled drivers aren't always able to avoid accidents. They happen. You'll get in one too.

I find it hard to believe that you can hydroplane at 30mph but perhaps that's faster than I realize (I come from a metric country).

To give you an idea of the expectations of the Province of Ontario, if you skid (or hydroplane, or your ABS activates) during your road test, for any reason, you automatically fail your exam. You don't even get to finish, you simply drive back to the lot and get a big red "failed" stamped on your test sheet.

If you skid, you were going too fast for the conditions and you, as a licensed driver, should know better...

I don't know what the I-5 is like but here, you drive no faster than what is safe for your vehicle, regardless of what speed other people are driving. Most streets where congestion is possible have more than one lane, and the convention is that the right is the cruising lane and the left is the passing lane. If others can drive faster than you, they may pass you on the left so there's no reason why your speed should hold up traffic...

This is what's supposed to happen, but anyone that drives in heavy traffic in North America knows it doesn't. There are places where people drive this way, but it's not on this side of the Atlantic.
There's been more than one thread on this subject.

speed conversion for you...
30 mile/hour (mph) = 48.280 32 kilometer/hour

I'm sorry but while you are "by the book" correct in all these posts in this thread, you have a lot of naivete and misconceptions about driving in the real world.

One would think that people would be law abiding, do right people but they aren't. Most people are not interested in "driving" but really being at point B instead of point A.

Here's a simple way to find that out. Ask someone who you know who commutes, and when they are in their car commuting to work, ask them,"What are you doing?" They will usually reply,"Commuting to work." or "I'm on my way to work." Rarely will you hear anyone say,"I'm driving."

I'm sure Canada has a better, safer license system than the US(which is truly not that hard to achieve)...that has been the point of your posts for quite a while now. Does it mean that Canada is devoid of accidents? Certainly not.

Certainly, especially considering the accident that started this thread happened in my province.

This emphasizes my point. I'm pretty sure that she (and her son) would have survived the trip if she had slowed down, as everyone in this province (theoretically) knows... The only thing that I can think of that would have certainly killed her was a catastrophic mechanical failure...

Well, considering this one trip was the first and (so far) only time I have ever driven alone, your statement is not surprising.

I must say how much I did learn on this one trip, alone. I drove at high speed through rain, sleet, and snow. I drove through a busy highway (enough that traffic stopped), an empty highway, and every level of congestion in between. I drove around the busy city of Toronto without mishap. I've driven during the day and well into the night. I eventually learned how to refuel the damn thing (with the help of the gas station guy). Finally, I even had to dig myself out after getting stuck driving into a rental lot full of too much snow. After freeing myself, I made a ramp out of compressed snow and quickly drove into the lot, using the momentum of the car to make it to a parking spot so that I will have dropped the car off at the rental place, on time.

That was a busy day for me...

I think it is possible to go through your entire life without ever getting into any kind of (auto) accident and, while there are no guarantees in life, I plan to take a pro-active role in minimizing the number of accidents that happen to me (hopefully reducing them to zero). I hope I never grow complacent in this regard...

...of course, this is the attitude my driving school had instilled in me. Perhaps these are a pack of lies told to me by my faceless corporation of a driving school but I prefer to think that there's some merit in this attitude. This can even be a thread of its own...

Isn't it already too late for that? You've been in an accident.

Gilda

What do you mean? The snow thing?

there is nothing worse than bad drivers. you may not think you are one, but if you driving slower than you should on what you think are bad conditions when they aren't you are causing a hazardous condition! i don't know how many times there has been rain on the road and in a 65mph zone people are going 45. because of RAIN! if you can't handle a little rain or snow STAY HOME! don't go on the road if you can't handle it and you won't die on the road. bitch!

As someone who has almost exceeded the 1-million mile mark in my driving experience, almost all of it in northern climates where snow and sleet is common during winter, I'm amazed by the expertise claimed by so many with so little experience. For the record, I've never been in an accident that was my fault. The only two were once when I was stopped at a red light and the guy behind me didn't and hit me. The other one a girl ran a stop sign about 60' in front of me and slammed into my car. Is it somehow feasible that I could've someway done SOMETHING to be in a different spot at that time? Maybe. But realistically I was driving defensively, driving safely, and driving within the law. That's why they are called accidents.

It does suck that people perish in car collisions but tons of them can and should be avoided. Way back in the day I remember my drivers training and they refused to call them accidents because something like 90% of them are preventable. Every single crash involving more than one car could be avoided if either of the vehicles was paying enough attention. I feel that people don't respect cars enough, they have a very high mass and are traveling at very fast speeds for such a fragile creature to treat them like toys

I believe the term accident refers to the intention of causing an action, and does not pertain to whether or not it could have been avoided.

I really doubt the driver was doing anything wreckless with her kid in the car. sometimes shit just happens. would need to see the road to know but its hard to tell what could of happened. deer another car comming head on? hit a pothole wrong who knows. shit happens and it sucks nothing can be done to stop it. having been in a few accedents myself none of witch were my fault luckly i can say sometimes you just cant avoid them. the most dagerous thing about driving isnt the road conditions or how expericanced you are at driving its other people. If noone else drove while you were driving most likely you would never get into a accedent. but people do drive on the roads and they think for themself so who knows what could have happened. she might of swerved at the last second when a drunken midget jumped out in front of her. You just never know.

Ok, so everybody breathe and calm down. This is just life, and unpredictable and unplanned things happen, whether we have the best training, knowledge, experience, education, whatever.

The death of another human being, regardless of cause, is always regrettable.

Humility, not only regarding driving, is always a good thing. No-one is perfect, and life isn't always what we plan it to be, no matter how well we prepare or pay attention.

And accidents do happen. And always when you least think they will. Not only because they just do happen, but also because we all live our lives thinking that we will live forever. You can say that you don't, but the truth is, right up until shit happens, we can't believe it will. Even to that milisecond before. And after it happens, we think, I can't believe that happened. So that lady on the cell, who had spoken on her cell in the car before, never really thought that doing that could really get her killed - no, not today. Because she probably thought that people shouldn't talk on their cell in the car, but did it a few times because it was just that once. And why would it happen to her? Life is seldom how we plan it.