Should I have sympathy for poor drivers who kill themselves?
 

This article tells the story of how a mother and her four year old child died while driving under poor conditions on a "dangerous road."
Now, it is of popular opinion that the road is dangerous and that the canal should be moved so that that road is less dangerous.

Now, I'm a brand new driver. I just recently got my G2 license (one step below getting a permanent driver's license) and rented a car just last weekend. It was my first time driving by myself, driving on the highway, and driving in the city (I took a road trip to Toronto). The weather that Saturday was horrible. It was raining slush (or snowing rain, take your pick), so while it continued to rain(snow), the slush was just piling up on the road instead of draining away like rain would have, making the road extremely dangerous. In my Toyota Echo, I couldn't exceed 80 km/h without hydroplaning , even while driving in the tracks of the car in front of me. Yet, I managed to drive 100 km, twice, without incident. How? Because I was careful and vigilant.

Now, I have all the sympathy in the world for the child of the idiot mother who drove along the Holland Marsh Canal without slowing down enough to see in front of her and to stop on time. It is the most basic safety precaution in driving. If the conditions are slippery, slow down. If your visibility is limited, slow down! This includes rain, snow, fog, the dark, and even corners!

So, I see this as another case of people killing themselves with their own idiocy, except that this one took her child with her. And, to top it all off, people are blaming the road. It wasn't the road, it was the driver!

Am I being too critical? Does anyone have another point of view on this issue?

I think you are being hypocritical... you admit the road conditions were bad... and you were hyroplaning going above a certain speed - but yet, you went above that speed, not once but twice...

Every driver in the world thinks they are so careful and safe... Maybe this mother had the same mindset you did.. she thought she was being safe...

She may have been driving slow. You don't know the specific conditions. If you want to feel superior and real smart that's your business.

There is a reason they call them.....Accidents.

It makes no mention of the speed she was driving at, so how do you know she was driving unsafely? Also, it is fucking ludicrous to say that we should just ignore dangerous conditions and then blame it on the people when they get hurt by them. The road is dangerous to people who have never driven it before and don't know it. You think it should be allowed to remain unsafe simply because it's possible to not die on it if you drive slow enough?

The arrogance of youth.

When you have your first accident let us know.

some people in SUVs think it means 4WD and that even if they have 4WD that it means they can drive as fast as they want and still be safe. Most avid 4WD friends I have that actually take their SUVs off roading drive them at around 10MPH most of the time when off road and usually even slower. These drivers aren't just the ones I know from California but the ones in Iceland as well.

To answer the title of the post directly - yes, you should unless you're a cold bastard lacking basic empathy. Think about it, this is a mother and child that died in a horrible way. You have no way of knowing why they were on the road or what the circumstances of the accident were. Maybe the kid had a fever and they were on their way to the hospital. Maybe they got surprised by the weather and never intended to be out that late.

By your own admission, KnifeMissle, you're not an experienced driver and you don't even have a permanent license. Obviously you are prone to make similar mistakes as this poor woman, so I don't think that you have any room to criticize. In cases like this, you should probably be thinking "There but for the Grace of God go I."

Adjust your attitude.

I used to think like you did. Then I drove for a few years. There's nothing that will completely change your mind but a little experience and maturity. I was there - I know.

My post here was rather unproductive and not very nice...

I decided to remove it.

Precisely. Sometimes shit just happens. You pulled a very stupid move when you went 20 over what you thought was safe (which, since you're inexperienced, probably means 40-50 over what was actually safe - just because you're not hydroplaning doesn't mean you have sufficient control in the slop). You could have easilly wrecked your car, maybe even died. And yet then you have the audacity to get mad at some woman for slipping off of a road that's been listed as very dangerous.

We don't know from the article how exactly the Jeep got in there. Maybe the mother swerved to avoid an animal or pedestrian. Stranger things have happened. I think that labeling these deaths with the broad stroke of "idiocy" is unnecessary and unqualified in this instance.

I lived in the Upper midwest of the US for my first 25 years of driving, and I never had an accident in winter weather, even as a teenager learning to drive. I moved to Connecticut and had a snow-related accident within 3 weeks. The midwest is colder and more arid than Connecticut, and snow here in CT has a higher moisture content than in the Dakotas. There is more water mixed with the snow in general, and it melts more than sublimates -- it's more slippery on the road. Who knew? My accident was T-boning a parked car on a deserted street at about 8 mph. Was I an idiot? I think I simply encountered something I hadn't encountered before, even though I am a safe and experienced driver. I'm also thankful no one was hurt.

Something happened, a car crashed, and the woman and her child died. That's sad, first and foremost. Secondly, we don't know exactly what happened. We can make slightly educated guesses, but there were no witnesses to the crash, according to the article. Third, simply believing that you are a vigilant and careful driver doesn't make accident victims idiots. Fourth, the design of the road very clearly played a part in this accident, according to the people interviewed in the article. And lastly, if you claim to be 1) a new (thus inexperienced) driver, 2) driving at highway speeds in hydroplaning conditions, and 3) exceeding those speeds, I think your behavior speaks for your judgement as a driver. You seem far luckier than vigilant, based on what you wrote about your own driving in inclement conditions. I genuinely hope you don't need to slide off the road into a canal to find that out.

u obviously dont know anyone whos been hurt in an accident before....

As a 20 year driver who was out driving in that same weather this weekend about 3 miles south of where Ms. Read and her daughter were killed (they were killed in Bradford, I was in Newmarket) and being familiar with the stretch of road I can see the accident happening. It was tricky enough driving on new tires on ploughed main roads like the 404 and Davis Drive. On Canal Rd. anything could have happened.

Like others here have said..wait till you have an accident (odds are you will).

One of the worst things you can do as a driver, is project a character onto other drivers. If everyone who passes you, tailgates, swerves, short-brakes and so on, is an "idiot", then your in for a miserable life behind the wheel. With an adversarial approach like that, you'll develop more aggressive (ie: dangerous) driving habits, and probably give yourself an ulcer in the process. This is where road rage comes from.

Even the best drivers make mistakes, or don't spot a hazard from time to time. We're all making the same trip with the same distractions. Never presuppose the situation.

Ok everyone, pick the funniest response out of the following:
A. Probability. :lol:
B. You played the probability game and won. :lol: You should know about this being a Computer Scientist. :lol:
C. Quantum mechanics? :lol:
D. "Shut the hell up, n0nsensical, you are such a fucking nerd. :lol:"

I agree with what people said previously about experience and not knowing the facts of the incident. The only thing I'll add is that many of you are misinterpreting part of KM's post:

He was saying that he drove 100 km, not 100 km/h.

also to add, cars are mechanical objects, they have mechanical failures from time to time that YOU cannot control, but have to respond to.

My mother of all people used to have to certify at a driving school each year as part of having a corporate fleet vehicle. They took her out in a remote controlled type vehicle where they could do things like lock a brake on one side to cause the car to swerve and spin out, kill the engine, and other things that help one simulate a potential issue and learn how to respond quickly and safely.

Anytime a mother and child die, regardless of circumstances, most people do have sympathy. The fact that you have to question whether or not you should speaks more about your soul than it does driving conditions

Point well taken. My carelessness, my mistake. I apologize.

Youth? He's 31 years old.
Still...your point is very well taken.

Take it from someone that's been driving for more years than many of you have been alive...shit can happen in an instant. Yes, there will always be those that will try to drive the posted limit, and more, on sheet ice, but that type of stupidity aside...it really takes nothing at all to go from having control...to being completely out of control. Experience will teach you how to regain control.

It was an accident. Nothing more. Poor kid. Poor mom. I can't even imagine...

Y'know...I had to go back and reread it. You're right. Good catch there, kutulu. I read the same as everyone else. Wonder why that is. Something subliminal in there? Did we subconciously want to catch him driving carelessly? Interesting.

Oh well...back to work.

By this I would assume he was quite young, first time driving alone at 31? :hmm:

no... not necessarily. My wife got her licence at 32, when she needed it for work.

but at any rate, it appears that the lady who went into the canal did so as she was talking on her cell phone to her friend:

Link: http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...=1139267414390

Story:

Mom on cell as SUV skidded
Keswick woman, son drown in canal near Bradford
Mother had just warned her to stay off phone, drive slowly
Feb. 7, 2006. 05:27 AM
JIM WILKES
STAFF REPORTER


Police say Cassandra Read was talking to a friend on her cellphone when her car slid out of control on an icy road and into a canal near Bradford.

The 32-year-old Keswick woman and her 4-year-old son drowned before rescuers could find her submerged SUV Saturday night.

South Simcoe police initially said Read had called a 911 emergency operator for help after her Toyota 4Runner went into the canal about 7 p.m. and disappeared beneath the murky waters.

"She was talking to her friend on a cellphone when she lost control," Traffic Sgt. Steve Wilson said yesterday. He said the friend, Crystal Pittman of Bradford, alerted police and told them where to look along Canal Rd., just east of Highway 400.

"It will be crucial to talk to the friend she was talking to on the cellphone to find out exactly what was said," he explained.

Pittman refused to speak with reporters yesterday about the tragedy.

"It's just too much torture for her," said Pittman's husband Earl.

Wilson refused to speculate on whether using the phone contributed to the accident, but said cellphones "are distraction, no doubt about it."

He said Read's car was not equipped for hands-free cellphone use.

Less than an hour before the accident, Read's mother had urged her not to use the phone as she drove home from a day trip to a flea market near Kitchener.

"She phoned me when she got out of Orangeville on Highway 9 and she said the roads were bad," Brenda Read told the Toronto Star.

"I said to her, `Just put your truck in four-wheel drive and keep your foot off the gas and get off the cellphone so you can concentrate on driving'."

Police have given the same advice to motorists for years.

"They're a distraction," Wilson said. "Every week we investigate collisions or we see drivers out on the road that are crossing the centre line, they're not paying attention, being distracted.

"If you're going to use a cellphone and it doesn't have hands-free, pull over and talk on the side of the road. Keep both hands on the steering wheel, adjust your driving according to the weather conditions."

He said the tragic accident was among dozens across the area over the weekend.

"It's just people driving too fast for the road conditions," he said. "The speed limit on a road may be 80, but 50 kilometres may be too fast, depending on how icy the road is.

"People take unnecessary risks and they don't have to."

Wilson said conditions along winding Canal Rd. Saturday night were icy and slushy.

"It is a dark road," he said. "You're going from pavement to open water in less than a metre.

"There's no forgiveness on that roadway. If you lose control on that road, you're in the water."

There have been 19 deaths in the canals in the past 52 years.

Bradford West Gwillimbury Mayor Frank Jonkman said town officials have been trying for more than a decade to get approval and funding from senior government levels to shift the canals and create a land buffer between them and the road.

Art Janse, the town's drainage superintendent, said it would cost $4.5 million to install guardrails along the road, but said peat fill that the road is built on isn't stable enough to hold railings in place.

Jonkman said yesterday it's finally time to cut through years of bureaucratic red tape and begin the $18 million, five-year project to shift the canal and dike system, which keeps water from flooding the fertile Holland Marsh farmlands.

"We've had a number of fatalities on the canals over the years and to people in the community it's nothing new," Jonkman said. "They've heard it all before."

He said he hopes senior government levels will listen now that the canal has claimed two more lives.

So does Read's father.

"Maybe it can stir something up to get the road fixed like the mayor wants," he said.

"But all that comes from something like this is sadness and sorrow. It's a real heartache."

Wilson said a counselling team from York Region police will meet with officers and firefighters who pulled Read and her son Taylor Grasby from the submerged car and tried unsuccessfully to revive them.

They are to be buried Thursday.

"It was very difficult for a lot of our officers, because they have small children," Wilson said. "They can relate."

See what happens when you assume? ;)

Regardless...your overall point was well taken.

Aww, fuck and goddamn. :mad:
What, in the hell, was that important? :confused:
I guess only Crystal Pittman knows for sure. :(

I have many friends who don't have a license to drive because NYC has good public transportation, same for friends in London.

I was equally shocked in the mid90's when my boss was telling me that she was getting her license at age 36 and buying her first car. I was shocked because I grew up in LA and that's as car centric as you can get.

Here in Colorado we've had two or three accidents involving teenagers not paying attention. In the one that comes to mind first, a teenage male is busy fuckin' around in his car and ends up killing his two passengers. I don't feel sorry for these kids at all. The other that comes to mind is a kid that was busy texting his girlfriend and... died. Don't feel sorry for him either.


If your too fuckin' stupid to know that when you drive you should ONLY be driving. You need to die. Get off my roads and let me drive in peace without worrying that some dipshit teenager isn't gonna ram into me cause he was too busy playin' with his stereo and textin' his 'homies' to drive.


I fuckin' hate teenagers and I'm only 25.

exactly the case here, my wife was raised as a downtown Toronto girl, where she either walked or used the streetcar/subway to get around.

I, on the other hand, got my learner's permit when the office opened on my 16th brithday. Living in a small town kinda drove one towards getting licenced (no pun intended).

The original poster asked here:
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=100870
Does cell phone use while driving deserve a law?



Perhaps it does :)

Okay what I don't understand is why the Mother didn't roll down the windows to get out of the car. Doesn't everyone know that the hydrostatic pressure exerts a force on the doors so that you can't open them in water? Anyways -if you're car ever goes in the water -get out by rolling down the windows.

Yes, I feel sorry for them.

If the truck was in the water, it could have short-circuited the electrical system. If it had power windows, there's no way to get them down without fixing the electrical system.

Exactly - no power, no window exit. It's a nasty situation. We used to live in the same town (Keswick) as Ms. Read, though we did not know her, there's still that small town connection.

Somewhere around here is a thread about drivers that do not obey the warning signs for closed roads and whatnot and if everyone should pay for their rescues and such. That is an entirely different situation than this. And regardless if this was the mother's fault or not, that child died likely very frightened through no fault of its own. And these deaths certainly were not natural selections that we like to call Darwinisms.

Thank you, kutulu, for actually reading my post and clearing it up for others.
Thanks, meembo, for your kind apology.

Okay, I admit that my reaction was harsh and presumptuous (much like Ustwo's assertion of my youth). It's just that the end of the article and the TV newscast where I had learned of the incident seemed to absolve the mother of any responsibility and totally blamed the road and weather conditions. So much so that the canal should be moved so that these accidents won't be so fatal.

I think it would be more appropriate to tell people to be more careful and to slow down when driving conditions are bad. Really, you're not likely to drive off the road at 5 km/h. I learned this lesson my first day of driving and I'm pretty sure she'd been driving for a while...

I have no sympathy if the following people kill themselves in a vehicle:

1) Dumbasses on motorcycles doing wheelies in and out of traffic @ 100 mph.
2) Dumbasses in shiny cars that mommy and daddy bought, drag racing in traffic.
3) Dumbasses who drink and drive.

Unfortunately most of those people wind up killing other people instead of themselves.

And although talking on a cel phone in a snowstorm on a windy road next to a canal is a dumbass thing to do, I don't think she deserved to die for it.

I'll add my apology for the speed bit as well - I also misread that as 100kph.

And now that we know she was on a cell phone, yes she screwed up. Bigtime. But that doesn't mean i feel no sympathy or compassion for her, and especially for her child, who didn't have any choice in the matter.

And it also doesn't mean that I'm going to go around calling various drivers idiots. I've made mistakes too, and I've probably driven more miles than any two people here combined, unless we have a semi driver I don't know about. In a slow year I'll put 50,000 miles on my newscar alone, and then another 20-30k on my personal car, and that's not counting miles on the live/satellite trucks ;) You WILL make mistakes. You have already made them. No, you were not going 100kph, but you were going fast enough to hydroplane.

I think some blame also should be placed on the driver training system. People in the United States (and probably Canada too since you guys didn't drive any differently than we do when I was up there a few years ago) don't know how to drive. They're not taught how to drive. They spend the majority of their driver education in the classroom, and what little seat time they get is largely used to learn about parallel parking and slow driving through neighborhoods. No controlling the car at the limits, no skid avoidance, nothing. It's pathetic, and it may have contributed to this woman's death.


Regarding moving the canal - I have trouble seeing how moving the canal would be much more effective than a good, solid safety rail.

i feel bad for the mom and kid, i'd imagine she was trying to drive as safely as she could with a kid in the car.

but when the weathers bad and i'm trying to drive safely and a driver flies by me and i see them in the next ditch i just keep on going, don't usually wave to them though on the way by.

I don't care if you have to do 2mph the whole way- if the conditions warrant it, you slow down.

Here in Florida, when it rains, it RAINS. Many times, traffic on a major highway will slow down to 15mph (from a normal 60 or 65) because the rain is coming down so heavily.

Responsible driving includes slowing down under imperfect driving conditions, and maintaining your full attention even moreso than normal. So, the idiot was driving full speed and talking on her phone while plowing her SUV through a slushy mess.

They didn't deserve to die, and I do have sympathy, but I also have to shake my head at the colossal stupidity. Accidents are accidents when normal human preventative measures were taken, and some small degree of human error caused a problem- an accident is NOT when someone blatantly ignores shitty drivign conditions and talks on their phone at the same time, it's an invitation to trouble.

My grandmother is 83, she's never driven in her whole life. Many people, especially those living in large cities, rely heavily on public transportation. I love when people say "the arrogance of youth" when they have no clue what they're talking about. Those not-so-youthful are perfectly capable of arrogance as well, but they pass off their assholish behavior and snap-judgments as "experience". And i'm not just talking about one person in this thread, either.

I'll tell you what kind of experience I have- I have almost 25 years' worth of experience in not being an asshole or self-righteous prick. I was born in 81, do the math.

My gramps was a rally racer and also a car mechanic(on big competitions such as 24 Heures Du Mans and Formula 1 races). Needless to say, his reflexes, until age 65-70 were lightning fast (if you've seen a rally race from the inside of a cockpit, you know what I mean).
However, it didn't prevent him from getting in an accident while driving "normally" one day, partly because of bad weather conditions (and he was focused and cautious) when he was in his forties. He said he was lucky to not die that day; I think so, too, because most accidents depend on the unpredictable. I'm not gonna say chaos theory, but its the smallest things that often lead to horrible consequences.
I agree with Bill o rights: Nobody should assume anything from events that we're not sure about. For all we know, the girl could've put her hands on the mom's eyes... (My younger sister did that once to my dad as a game because she saw it in a stupid kid's movie and wasn't old enough to know better.) The point is, only God knows exactly what made the car go off road.
And experience may lessen the probability of an accident, but no matter what, it remains an <b>accident</b>.
Of course, feel sympathy, because it could happen to you (or anyone around you) tomorrow. But more importantly, develop awareness and learn from tragedies like this.