Astrocloud

We don't know that. To say that most terrorists are like Osama is blatently false. Osama has the economic wherewithall to be a leader of terrorists. Still some must be his followers. I submit that they are not all rich.

I think that you can not isolate culture from poverty. There are some extremely impoverished people in Uganda (the world's 7th poorest nation) but they come here and many end up working all the time -like three jobs. Poverty didn't make them violent. However in Northern Uganda, there is a huge problem with a Christian Fundamentalist Terror group known as the LRA. The Lord's Resistance Army was started within a tribe which was impoverished and had a sense of entitlement over other tribes. Feel free to argue with me on any of this... just start a new thread as it is nearly completely -off topic.

I think that is what is happening here. Allah has promised these people that they -the representatives of the One True Religion -should be masters of the world. The only problem is that their extreme adherance to this faith has resulted in a sort of "dark ages" for them. Now any criticism, especially by their "lessers" is like rubbing a raw wound. After all, why aren't they God's chosen people?

percy

Me thinks Roachboys post #106 should be a sticky. Bang on.

abaya

/me agrees with Percy, particularly Roachboy's quote here:

As for the question of poverty: Ustwo, have ya been to the Middle East lately? There aren't millions of rich people running around. In fact, there are very few, and those are VERY rich, yes. But they are far from being the majority. Check out the movie Syriana for a semi-decent portrayal of what drives people to violence in that, or any, area of the world.

Poverty does not determine behavior 100%, I certainly agree. But being black or brown or living in a ghetto does not a violent person make. Material conditions have a very strong impact on culture and social organization in particular, no less so in the Middle East than right here in affluent America. Infrastructure is the foundation of structure and superstructure, not the other way around. And certainly, race is not the foundation of behavior... (can't believe I actually had to say that).

(I suppose we are getting off topic. Sorry.)

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Ustwo

And I never said they were all rich, but the 9/11 hijackers did not come from poverty but solid 'middle' class famlies. I'm saying poverty has very little to do with it.

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Ustwo

I submit that poverty has nothing to do with islamic radicals. Sure they use the poor like everyone else, but the movement is not due to poverty.

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roachboy

that's because you haven't done any reasearch, ustwo, and so havent the faintest idea what you are talking about. unless you think that all arabs are basically the same, that all muslims are arabs, and that knowing factoids about **some** aspects of the situation in saudi arabia means that you know everything you need to in order to write authoritative sounding sentences. (it's hard to write while listening to morton subotnik's music, btw--in case you were wondering what it would be like)

researchers working in france and north africa have shown that the vast majority of "fundamentalist" variants of islam--the small, socially marginal groups that you refer to when you think you are talking about islam in general---the folk who identify share certain features:
they tend to be poor to very poor
they come from socially and culturally marginal areas
they are the main are quite young (under 30).

now you *could* make the argument that, in this case, judging from much of the work on these areas, that poverty in itself is not enough to explain these groups--you have to factor in the other two.
well those....and you need to add:
the complex politics of the major organizations that run the various muslim communities within each nation-state;
the characteristics of state power;
the history of relations between these states and the major administrative entities that comprise the muslim community

for example

....and matters of geography--physical, economic, social, cultural, religious....

to the factors of poverty and sense of marginalization (which may or may not be directly linked to poverty) and the sense of foreclosure of possibilities experienced by younger generations within the more marginalized areas.

then you might be able to model these groups

but if you wanted to extend the modelling, you'd have to gather parallel types of information for each new area you tried to include. that is because local histories matter, ustwo--and muslims have them--and they are every bit as complex and meaningful to the folk who live within them, who make them, as yours is to you.

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mrklixx

Who knew that pastries could be so volitile?

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DJ Happy

A sarcastic post of this nature is really uncalled for, thank you.

The cartoon you refered to is in reference to the $700 million that has gone missing from the Palestinian coffers and is an indictment of the Palestinian officials. You complain how quickly Muslims are to take offence, yet you have just done exactly the same here, and in this instance completely without basis.

If all you want to do is hate, fine. But you please go and do it somewhere else so the rest of us can discuss these issues civily.

DJ Happy

Never mind, Charlatan seems to have covered it...

DJ Happy

I just read this. It seems that Jyllands-Posten does indeed have some sensitivities when it comes to offending religions:

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/sto...=ticker-103704

AngelicVampire

DJ, that cartoon was very non-specific, it could easily be applied where I did and take offense at it (well not really, I didn't find it offensive but others could). The point was that their media is not exactly being "Western" friendly in all this, and that we could easily take offense as they have (heck if the Jews reacted as the Muslims have to some of the cartoons Israel would have been on the warpath by now...!).

Halx

Jesus fuckin christ. Just nuke that entire section of the god damn earth and let us be done with it. As an individual who finds all religions ridiculous, there is not one that stands out as more of a nuisance than Islam. You can find cultures with more malicious intents. You can find religions who don't even profess peace. But you cannot find a more obnoxious, annoying and dangerous choice of lifestyle than that of radical Islam.

I'm gonna offend a lot of people by saying this, sure. I've had it though. I don't hold much sacred at all, and I don't profess to even understand what the fuck is going through the minds of these radicals. I'm also aware that they do not represent every single muslim in existence. With all that said, just nuke the motherfuckers the minute they have the gall to terrorize people of different beliefs simply because they do not agree. It's fucked and there is no justification.

We all share this planet, and after thousands of years to get adjusted, if you cant HANG with people who are DIFFERENT than you, you gotta go. Period.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Part 2.

That's exactly what they're thinking right now. Just swap their culture with ours. How do we resolve this? Is there even a way at all? Do we even want to? To begin, to have any shred of hope, I feel it's important to not even take the stance of Part 1 of my post. In fact, I should hope that those who are in charge of resolving this do not feel that they are AGAINST the Muslim people, and that they must force them to cope.

That is not to say they don't have to. It's all in how you present it to the people, though. Humans, in large masses, are dumb as fuck. Even angry, violent and empassioned ones. Hell, ESPECIALLY those ones. Dress up your message properly and they'll swallow it like it was an instant headache relief pill.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Part 3.

My own, real opinion. Often, people forget that NOW is simply a result of THEN. The FUTURE will be a result of NOW. I feel that the destructive and violent tendencies of these radicals will ultimately be the cause of their collapse, regardless of how they are dealt with now. They will be the reason for their own demise. When it happens, it will be not a moment too soon. It's a shame it will happen slowly.

Funny though.

The same could be said about us.

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DJ Happy

How on earth could that even be interpreted as "the west are uncaring businessmen?" What aspect of that cartoon came across as "uncaring?" It simply makes no sense. And if you didn't even find it offensive yourself, then what is the point of your post?

You complain that one of the authors feels that the Arab world is being bullied by the West as being "not exactly Western friendly." Are you even aware of what is happening in the world right now? What on earth do you expect? I didn't post the link to show you that all Arabs love the West and really appreciate their religion being denigrated merely for the fun of it. I posted it to show you that there are moderate Muslim opinions being broadcast and Muslims condemning the violent nature of some of the protests. If you are shocked that everyone in the Arab world is not having a West love-in during this episode of world history then you are deluding only yourself.

jwoody

The way I read that story, I got the impression that it was an editorial decision not-to-publish unfunny cartoons, submitted on a whim, by an unfunny cartoonist.

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AngelicVampire

DJ, look at the picture, the expression looks rather blank on the guy throwing in the money, and basically we often do have a plan to give money to charities and the rest of the aid machine, however getting the aid (money -> useful stuff) to those that actually need it can be very difficult. The point of my post was that I could be upset by the comments and images and could go on a warpath... we all find things that upset us, personally I don't find much offensive (I am an overweight computer geek, being thick skinned helps), however I could easily find things in the links you posted that would make me theoretically upset.

What is happening in the world right now? That truly depends on the spin you place on events. Personally I do feel that removing Saddam was the right choice, ok it should have been done years ago but at least its done, pulling out right now would be silly as it would leave a country in a very vulnerable stage and likely lead to someone similar to Saddam reexerting power except with plans to not get ousted. What else is happening in the region? Israel/Palestine truly depends on which side of that fence you stand, I stand with Israel (even if they claim they want to wipe me out they haven't acted on it yet!). Iran making inroads towards a nuclear enrichment program? I think anyone can see why people are objecting to that, Iran are not know as the most enlightened government in the world, and having access to nuclear material that may fall into terrorist hands is pretty scary, I could easily build the rest of the bomb, the delivery system and any incidentals, the only hard part of making a nuke now adays is getting the materials for the fission/fusion.

Ok our media is perhaps slanted against the Arab/Muslim world, however theirs is no better towards us. All my point was is basically that someone can take offense at anything, to censor everything that may cause offense would well, well I suppose we should just kill everyone now because we might offend in the future.

WillyPete

I think the cartoons proved the editors point.
The world is afraid to say anything bad about Muslims, and the radicals have shown exactly why.

A good quote was in the morning paper: "We're no longer in political correctness, but approaching a state of Islamic correctness."

DJ Happy

From the article:

"The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny."

"Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

The Mohamed cartoons aren't funny either - most of them are just drawings of a man they say is Mohamed. I just find it somewhat inconsistent that Jyllands-Posten rejected cartoons satirising Jesus because they might cause offense an provoke and outcry, whilst they published the cartoons satirising Mohamed because they would cause offense and provoke an outcry.

jwoody

There's a massive difference between an editor rejecting cartoons which he didn't ask for and publishing a series of cartoons which he specifically requested.

Personally, I find the entire concept of gods ridiculous so I can't sympathise with your offense towards the mohamed cartoons.

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zz0011

Here's an interesting portion from a BBC report on this story:

Emphasis mine in the quote.

Gee, Mawli, I think your quote and your protests sort of color my opinion...

For whatever reason the "insert hyperlink" button wouldn't work, so if you want to visit the story, go here ~ http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4684652.stm

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DJ Happy

That is the most convoluted argument I've ever heard. You might be offended by what they said, but you're not, but you could be, so it's as bad as the Mohamed cartoons? Forgive me for being totally confused by this train of thought.

Why have none of the other cartoons/satires/parodies of Islam provoked this kind of response? You make it sound like this happens everyday all over the world. Jyllands-Posten knew that these cartoons would result in enormous outcry and they deliberately set out to provoke a response. Well, I guess they got what they wanted.

smooth

imagine we would meet over here...and amidst someone smelling like a marxist to boot!

but I digress, the thing I want to comment on is this notion of dispute you (and abaya) are having with ustwo. I have to preface with the statement that I filter from the same general schools of thought you two often pull from. According to the most current literature from my wing (Crim & socio-legal scholars), ustwo comes close to being accurate. But I don't know how he conceptualizes his points. That is to say, the evidence seems to support the contention that terrorists are coming from the "solid middle class". But that doesn't really tap into the full realm of anxiety and decentering and a full range of other complex issues many of our population are dealing with: oh say, lots of previously working people in Detroit or in a mill town
in anyVille, USA. Or even lotsa people running around over "there" shooting "them" if you wanted a more parallel analogy.

That said, the numbers of the 'kinds' of people ramming large aircraft into symbolic skyscrapers (actually if you had outlined what the symbolism meant to the respective populations you might have not fallen into what I think is a semantic argument with ustwo) is very, very, very small in relation to the people you and abaya seem to be referencing lately--the impoverished, downtrodden, marginalized, & etc. And infintismal (?) in relation to the general muslim population. but you seem to have done what you carefully tried to avoid and alert others from doing--collapsing various groups along distinct class lines into a homogenous group.

Shit, it's getting late (early, wth) and I'm supposed to be doing something entirely different so this is coming out rapid shot and not at all the tone I wanted to add to your and abayas insightful comments (among a couple other people I found myself nodding along with, but can't quite remember how to spell their names)

But I mean to say that the people we are reading about, the fire, gun, and sign slingers are a different group than the bomb slingers. you and I and abaya, I am almost positive, would agree that the bomb slingers are not filling the mosques. No, their members are of the sign, rock, fire, gun toting variety. Many of the people depicted in some pictures in this very thread would have trouble skinning a live rabbit much less hacking a human head off its stalk. And it's not too difficult to start to draw some lines between the youthful, angry, distraught faces in the mosques and their parents--those men (and it's almost always men, isn't it so far?) who very infrequently blow themselves up as their last act of powerless(ness).

I guess I just wanted to remind you that ustwo sees all of these characters as a one large mass. The youthful protesters, as they move into terrorists, and all coming from this large cauldron of muslimicity. So I think he tries to make these vertical connections between the muslimness of it all, the civil unrest, and the tangible things he feels might actually kill him or his way of life if left unaddressed. Meanwhile his politics don't allow him from analyzing the horizontal connections between structures in our society as impediments to theirs and its consequence on what he sees as a 'solid' middle class. You know, maybe in another time and place, you might have even questioned that particular premise of his: that there is anything approaching a "solid" middle class. For it seems likely that if one were to talk about the evisceration of such a strata then one might go a long way towards addressing terrorism. And by addressing I mean thinking and discoursing about it in a copmlex manner. and then maybe the who's we are discussing wouldn't congeal while the what's they are doing wouldn't collapse into some anti-american, anti-freedom, anti-US kind of understandings that become so difficult to disabuse in an internet forum medium.

but hot damn it was a pleasure to read your comments out here in general and I'm glad I decided to tighten my seatbelt and delve on into this thread after all because I had no idea what I was going to slap into and especially after I read the first page or two of responses.

__________________
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"You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman

Zyr

To me, this whole thing is less about the cartoons, about the portests, about Islam, and more about the media.

The cartoons were posted in september, then reposted. Only violent protests are shown on the news. Few, if any, views by mulisms denouncing the violent protests are shown.

The media is fueling this, and the rest of the Islam vs. Everyone Else feelings that seem to be around lately.


Oh, and blowing up people is bad, whether by straping explosives to yourself or during an unjustified war. Don't do it.

__________________
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Omnia mutantu, nos et mutamur in illis.
All things change, and we change with them.
- Neil Gaiman, Marvel 1602

zz0011

From ~

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117....html?from=rss

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DJ Happy

I'm also an atheist. I don't find the cartoons offensive, but I am not impressed by the deliberate and, it appears, measured provokation of an entire religion whilst hiding behind one of the most sacred and powerful tenets of democracy.

jwoody

This entire episode is about far more than just a cartoon.

700 million people are enraged, to the point of burning embassies, threatening beheadings, and burning flags... by a cartoon?

I don't believe that for one second.

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highthief

Time to stop using oil and wash our hands of everything between Morroco and Indonesia.

__________________
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Astrocloud

Nancy

Neither do I. Remember the Dutch artist Van Gogh who was murdered because of his criticism of Islam in his film, Submission? For some reason that film didn't spawn the same reaction like our cartoons have. Go figure.

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

james t kirk

Yeah, it's interesting after Van Gogh was murdered by an islamofascist, the Dutch were quite outraged. Holland considers itself (and rightly so) one of the most tolerant nations on earth. The Dutch could not understand how a person living in a nation which which welcomed him / them with tolerance could be so INtolerant themselves.

There has been a backlash in Holland since that murder against closed minded and extremist thinking that so many muslims subscribe to. Denmark is no doubt going to follow suit after all this I would imagine.

The one thing I find amazing is watching the islamofascists protesting in Britain and Europe is that I can't help but think how a similar protest by Christians (not that Christians would be so thin skinned) would be dealt with in the Islamic world.

Charlatan

I think you have to be careful saying something like this... what you are suggesting here is that 700 million people (of Muslim faith) are supporting the burning and the beheadings while in fact that is not the case.

Yes, there are many, many that are upset and offended, enough to protest, these cartoons. But to suggest that every Muslim supports the extreme actions of the few is just wrong.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

Bill O'Rights

Wow! You mean just like not every Christian is a Pat Robertson following fundamentalist? What a concept.

I'll stop being sarcastic now, as those at whom it was directed...probably aren't going to get it anyway.

__________________
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"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

Nancy

^^ I think he merely just threw out a number. I think we're all aware that obviously not all the Muslims support the violent actions that have occured lately.

Naser Khader (Danish Muslim politician - originally from Syria and chairman for the Moderate Muslims society) has asked the Imams to speak for themselves from now on as the vast marjority of Muslims in Denmark do not share their opinion on the situation.

__________________
I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy.
I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

Charlatan

I know he just threw a number out there and wasn't intending it to read that way... I just wanted to point out that, given the heat of this particular thread and the topic in general, we should try not to generalize where possible.

And yes, Bill, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

There are many in this thread who are taking a very knee jerk reaction to this situation and I don't think it's ultimately productive of anything. All it does is further inflame an already ridiculous situation.

__________________
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- Old Man Luedecke

stevo

Interesting....very interesting.

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abaya

Wow. Not even sure I want to get started on that. In fact, I won't.

Nancy, thanks for your input... was wondering about your take on the situation. Good to hear about the moderate Muslim politician taking a stand in Denmark. I am sure there are many more moderates whose voices we are not hearing because of the media's bloodlust.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

jwoody

It's too late for that now.

~I'm leaving the forum~

Bye.

__________________
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jwoody

Right, I'm back.


What did I miss?

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stevo

nothing really. We were discussings some riots about some cartoons and Iran decided they want to do a Holocost cartoon contest to see if the western media reprints the cartoons they publish "just to be fair." Aint Iran a great country, such a beacon of peace and understanding? If only the whole world was one big Iran...then we wouldn't have to depend on foreigners for oil...hmmmm.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

percy

Wonder why the western media doesn't want to run holocaust cartoons. Afterall, cartoons don't mean anything and anyone insulted in the least by them shouldn't be. Bring em on I say.

percy

And in Toronto,

By BRODIE FENLON, TORONTO SUN

A week-long conference on radical Islam organized by Jewish student groups at the University of Toronto has stirred up controversy and resentment among Muslims at a time of heightened sensitivities due to world events.

The "Know Radical Islam Week," which includes presentations on terrorism and civil rights violations in Islamic regimes, began yesterday at Sidney Smith Hall just as violent protests swept the globe over published caricatures of Prophet Mohammed.

The coincidence was not lost on U of T student Jonathan Jaffit, director of campus affairs for Betar-Tagar, the Zionist student activist group that helped organize the conference.

"The issue of the cartoons in the European media just goes to showcase even further how radical Islam is suppressing freedom of speech through violence," he said.

"This is about a political ideology that's hijacked a religion," he said of the conference topic. "It will definitely stir up controversy, but we cannot shy away from these events."


Student Mubdi Rahman, academic affairs co-ordinator with the university's Muslim Student Association, said the conference "seeks to divide, as opposed to bridge any sort of dialogue on these issues."

Rahman said he has heard from many Muslim students who feel threatened they'll be viewed as "radicals" due to their beliefs, some of which will be criticized at the conference. The MSA issued an e-mail to its 2,000 members urging them to "exercise restraint and dignity" over the next few weeks.

What's next? Know Radical Judaism Week? Guess it's ok for some but not others



http://www.torontosun.com/News/Toron...29452-sun.html