Deputy Shooting Of Man Caught On Tape - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

timalkin · 02-09-2006, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poloboy

conduct unbecoming... etc. etc. (don't know all the fancy legal phrases).

And neither do most of you. There is no offense of "conduct unbecoming a police officer." There IS a Uniform Code of Military Justice article of "Conduct Unbecoming an Officer," but that is an entirely different code of laws. Stop watching TV and start researching the law if you're going to spout off about something so blatantly obvious to those who basic knowledge.

I watched the video and cannot see how any of you are so pissed off at what happened. It's a grainy film of something that happened at night, and you can't even see the suspects. I'd be the first one to call for the police officer's badge and see him sent to prison if his actions were clear. His actions and the actions of the suspects were not clear. We should reserve judgment on this until all of the facts become clear in a court of law.

And seriously, are we "real close to a reckoning in this country?" That's the most absurd statement I've read on this entire forum. Do you seriously want to know what happens when there are no police officers to protect you? Obviously you don't know what police do every single day that directly benefits the good citizens of this country. Give me a break.

The_Jazz · 02-09-2006, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

I watched the video and cannot see how any of you are so pissed off at what happened. It's a grainy film of something that happened at night, and you can't even see the suspects. I'd be the first one to call for the police officer's badge and see him sent to prison if his actions were clear. His actions and the actions of the suspects were not clear. We should reserve judgment on this until all of the facts become clear in a court of law.

I think that you've missed the point of most of these posts. I don't think that anyone is responding based on what they've seen. They are basing their accusations on what they've heard. Based on what I can hear on the tape, the command to get up is pretty clear as is the response from the victim.

As for things that "become clear in a court of law", please let me know when facts have ever clear in a case like this. The judicial system is not about truth and facts, it is about presenting your version of the truth and facts in such a way that the jury of the people who couldn't get out of the duty to make an (un)educated guess. Having been involved in several court proceedings of various types (albeit in civil court), the truth rarely, if ever, makes an appearance. Any good attorney is going to spin the facts in their direction to make their arguement seem like the most logical and sensible to the folks in the jury box. Just ask your favorite lawyer or cop for proof.

Quote:

And seriously, are we "real close to a reckoning in this country?" That's the most absurd statement I've read on this entire forum. Do you seriously want to know what happens when there are no police officers to protect you? Obviously you don't know what police do every single day that directly benefits the good citizens of this country. Give me a break.

This country has been "due" for a serious reckoning for the past 141 years if you listen to the right people. The reason changes from time to time - race, religion, politics - but anyone who's ignorant enough to think that the vox populi of America is really going to rise up against itself anytime soon needs to screw their tinfoil hat on a little tighter. Civil wars and rebellions don't happen in times of prosperity in any society without outside influence, and when the Cletus and Britney of Newport, TN (as opposed to the Cletus and Britney of Malibu) can go down to their local Sears and pick up a flat screen TV for $100, they're not going to be able to forment rebellion.

timalkin · 02-09-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

As for things that "become clear in a court of law", please let me know when facts have ever clear in a case like this. The judicial system is not about truth and facts, it is about presenting your version of the truth and facts in such a way that the jury of the people who couldn't get out of the duty to make an (un)educated guess.

The only way to know the exact truth is to have been there. Since I wasn't there, I'm reserving judgment until it gets sorted out in a court of law. It's a good thing that lawyers battle these cases out. The half-truths and accusations on this board make me glad that we have some system of adjudicating matters without mob rule.

Marvelous Marv · 02-09-2006, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

Is that why hte taper was arrested? At least that makes some sense.

Yeah, the Chino resident who recorded the shooting, Jose Luis Valdes, was arrested by Pomona police Friday on an outstanding warrant from Dade County, Fla., for aggravated assault.

KTLA link

Quote:

...Sheriff's officials said Thursday that Webb had spent more than 10 years in the department, serving as a jailer at West Valley Detention Center in Rancho Cucamonga and, most recently, as a patrolman based in the sheriff's Chino Hills station. Webb's only promotion came in 2001, and he has not received any of the department's most common awards, officials said. They declined to elaborate on Webb's service record...

There are several people quoted who praise Webb, also. In addition, the video had been edited into something quite different from what I saw originally.

A few more scraps...

Link

Quote:

"It's a criminal act," said Roger Clark, a former Los Angeles County sheriff's lieutenant who routinely testifies in court as an expert in police tactics. Clark has worked both for police officers and for citizens who have sued the police. "He shot an unarmed man who was complying with his orders," Clark said.

David Klinger, a use-of-force expert who teaches at the University of Missouri, St. Louis, and wrote a book titled "Into The Kill Zone: A Cop's Eye View of Deadly Force," said the recording was "the screwiest thing I've ever seen. It makes no sense."

"What I saw was totally incongruous with standard police doctrine," said Klinger, a professor of criminology and onetime LAPD officer.

Quote:

Some experts said the shooting could have been avoided had the deputy used better tactics. Specifically, they said, the deputy should never have placed himself so close to suspects. Instead, he should have used his own vehicle as cover, called for backup and issued commands from a safe distance.

Ideally, they said, a suspect should be lying prone on the ground and handcuffed before he is asked to stand up.

"It's a two-man operation," said Clark, "one to handcuff the suspect and the other to provide cover."

Good police tactics, he said, "prevent injuries and unnecessary uses of force." And, he added, "there is no room for anger in this profession, and this deputy looks really mad."

Quote:

Geoffrey Alpert, another police expert on deadly force, said that even if Carrion were disobeying the deputy and standing up without permission, that would not seem to justify the shooting.

"I don't see where there is a threat to the officer," said Alpert, chairman of the University of South Carolina's department of criminology and criminal justice.

Alpert, like other experts, suggested that the deputy might have been pumped up with emotion after being involved in an adrenaline-charged pursuit.

"It's hard to say what was going through that deputy's mind," he said.

Quote:

Webb was named as one of seven co-defendants in a 2004 federal civil lawsuit against San Bernardino County sheriff's deputies that alleged excessive use of force by another deputy. Jurors in that case ruled for the officers and cleared Webb, who had been accused of failing to stop his colleague from misconduct.

Webb's father says he has "never been in trouble a day in his life."

Marvelous Marv · 02-10-2006, 07:22 PM

At the risk of jacking my own thread, I feel compelled to add this. It reinforces my opinion that most police forces don't do enough to clean up their own ranks.

Link

Quote:

Police Hit Grandmother With Taser Gun Five Times
Officer Said Woman Resisted Arrest

POSTED: 1:30 pm EST December 8, 2005
UPDATED: 1:51 pm EST December 8, 2005

FRANKLIN, Ohio -- A 68-year-old woman was hit with a Taser gun by police in an Ohio city five times.

The police officer in the case, a lieutenant with the Franklin Police Department, claimed that he is the victim in the case, Columbus, Ohio, television station WCMH reported.

Beverly Kidwell, 68, was in the waiting room of the police department in suburban Dayton when the incident occurred. According to police, she came into the station to be arrested for hitting her granddaughter.

Kidwell said she waited a long time in the lobby and, when she got up to leave, the officer hit her with the Taser gun.

"I don't know if he thought I was going to get up and leave or what, but he pulled his gun. I thought it was a gun. I'd never seen a Taser gun in my life and I thought, 'Oh my God. He's going to shoot me. He's going to kill me,'" Kidwell said.

The police lieutenant said she was resisting arrest, WCMH reported.

Kidwell said she was in a fetal position and unable to move when the lieutenant ordered her to get up and continued to shock her. The woman survived five jolts and had to be taken to an area hospital.

glasscutter43 · 02-14-2006, 08:35 AM

I would like to see the video of this "cop" taking it up the ass while he is in prison.

Maveric · 02-21-2006, 07:02 PM

here in houston, i used to wait tables some years back with a guy who used to be a cop. it was not long after the incident where two houston cops anally raped a black man with a billyclub while several others watched and didn't do anything to stop it. the guy i worked with was one of the cops who watched but didn't do anything. he got a lawyer and paid some high $$$$ dollars and after several months and court battles was eventually allowed to return to duty...

as henry rollins said - "the only good cops are the ones pushing up daisies...."

fucked up shit happens all the time. it's mostly whether or not you choose to "see" it.

-Mav

FancyPants · 02-27-2006, 08:11 PM

Let's say (devil's advocate a little), that he DID say "DON'T get up". Just for fun now, hear me out.

Now the kid says,"Ok I'm getting up now".

What is your first reaction when you tell someone NOT to do something and they start doing it? (slowly I might add)

You say "NO, I said DON'T do that".

Those argueing for this position might also note he shot him THREE TIMES at point blank range. Not once, not twice, THREE TIMES. I don't know what crack you have to be on to miss a lethal shot even once, but what in the world would make you shoot three goddamn times?

My guess?

1) He didn't know he was being taped (this is almost a given)

2) He had a grudge against the military or had some pent up anger towards a certain type of people (colored people, people who drive fast, people who wear certain "gang" colors)

3) (MOST IMPORTANT) He fired three times because if he killed him, he thought he could make up any bullshit story he wanted to about him looking like he was drawing a gun, or perhaps "coming at him"

Maveric is also right in the fact a lot of stuff happens that shouldn't in the military, police, pretty much every government faction because the good people are far and few between, and the corruption either kills them, or suppresses their ability to do whats right.

I'm with that other poster above...revolution.

Ustwo · 02-27-2006, 11:18 PM

Yea because no innocent people die in revolutions, and everything is always all better afterwords.

smooth · 02-27-2006, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FancyPants

Let's say (devil's advocate a little), that he DID say "DON'T get up". Just for fun now, hear me out.

Now the kid says,"Ok I'm getting up now".

What is your first reaction when you tell someone NOT to do something and they start doing it? (slowly I might add)

You say "NO, I said DON'T do that".

Those argueing for this position might also note he shot him THREE TIMES at point blank range. Not once, not twice, THREE TIMES. I don't know what crack you have to be on to miss a lethal shot even once, but what in the world would make you shoot three goddamn times?

My guess?

1) He didn't know he was being taped (this is almost a given)

2) He had a grudge against the military or had some pent up anger towards a certain type of people (colored people, people who drive fast, people who wear certain "gang" colors)

3) (MOST IMPORTANT) He fired three times because if he killed him, he thought he could make up any bullshit story he wanted to about him looking like he was drawing a gun, or perhaps "coming at him"

Maveric is also right in the fact a lot of stuff happens that shouldn't in the military, police, pretty much every government faction because the good people are far and few between, and the corruption either kills them, or suppresses their ability to do whats right.

I'm with that other poster above...revolution.

lol, yeah because he knew the guy was in the military

FYI, training would "make you shoot three goddamn times" and US police officers are not trained to shoot to wound/incapcitate.

Menoman · 03-03-2006, 07:17 AM

I think it's more sickening that this cop is gonna go to jail for eliminating a loser from the streets anyway.

Why was the douche going 100mph? He did something that would cause that nobody with nothing to hide would do that.

You've never had to hold a gun to a man who just ran at 100mph from you, this guy is willing to risk his life going that fast, just to get away.... What else is he going to do to get away? Killing you probably is an option.

Karby · 03-03-2006, 07:28 AM

did you read the article...?
the guy who got shot was the passenger in the car, not the driver...and he didnt have a gun.

Menoman · 03-05-2006, 03:17 AM

doesnt matter, he still was in a car that was trying to outrun him at high speeds, What are the chances that both guys are involved in whatever they are running to hide?

Are they low enough chances you're willing to risk your life on?

and how exactly would you know if he had a hidden gun or not? or a knife? or a razor hidden in his mouth?

dksuddeth · 03-05-2006, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menoman

doesnt matter, he still was in a car that was trying to outrun him at high speeds, What are the chances that both guys are involved in whatever they are running to hide?

so what are you saying? that all people involved in running from the police, driver AND passengers should be shot? I guess that means that the idiot father who tries to flee the police with his wife and children in the car should start saying goodbye to his 3 year old?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menoman

Are they low enough chances you're willing to risk your life on?

If there was ANY question about the cop thinking his life could be in danger, he should have WAITED for backup before giving instructions other than 'stay down' and 'keep your hands where i can see them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Menoman

and how exactly would you know if he had a hidden gun or not? or a knife? or a razor hidden in his mouth?

see above, and a razor in his mouth? now you're just reaching.

dksuddeth · 03-07-2006, 01:53 PM

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,187089,00.html

Quote:

A sheriff's deputy who was videotaped shooting an unarmed Iraq War veteran after a car chase will be charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter, authorities said Tuesday.

The decision to charge Deputy Ivory J. Webb, 45, was announced by San Bernardino County District Attorney Michael A. Ramos.

Sheriff Gary Penrod said Webb will remain on paid administrative leave during the investigation into the shooting of Air Force Senior Airman Elio Carrion, 21.

Now, if that were any of us normal joes, we'd be in jail with a 6 figure bond.

Marvelous Marv · 03-07-2006, 05:14 PM

Nice to know there will be a trial.

I never saw an answer as to why Webb was so close to the guy, either.

The_Jazz · 03-10-2006, 11:56 AM

Here's an update: http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/03/10/air....ap/index.html

Quote:

LOS ANGELES, California (AP) -- The 21-year-old Iraq war veteran seen in a video being shot by a sheriff's deputy says in a recorded statement that he has difficulty walking.

Senior Airman Elio Carrion released a videotaped statement through his attorney Thursday, a day after San Bernardino County sheriff's Deputy Ivory J. Webb pleaded not guilty to attempted voluntary manslaughter and was released on $100,000 bail.

"My physical therapy continues to progress and I still have difficulties walking," Carrion says, looking into the video camera.

"I'm sorry I haven't been able to speak publicly, but right now I'm focused on my physical therapy and healing."

The tape shows him sitting on a couch next to his wife and moving around with the aid of a walker.

The January 29 shooting was videotaped by a bystander and broadcast on U.S. national television. (Watch the shots being fired -- 1:00)

It shows Webb shooting Carrion, who was not armed, in the chest, shoulder and thigh after a brief high-speed chase involving a car in which the airman was a passenger.

Webb, who faces up to 18 1/2 years in prison if convicted, has not spoken publicly about the shooting.

Carrion, who is assigned to a security unit at Barksdale Air Force Base in Shreveport, Louisiana, has not been charged with a crime.

A couple of notable clarifications on points raised in the earlier discussion:

The shootee/victim was not charged with any crimes
The shooter/policeman is being charged with attempted voluntary manslaughter
The victim is confirmed to not be the driver of the car

dksuddeth · 03-15-2006, 07:42 AM

Deputy changes story after seeing videotape of shooting

Quote:

SAN BERNARDINO, Calif. (AP) - A sheriff's deputy who was videotaped shooting an unarmed man following a high-speed chase changed his version of events after viewing the footage of the incident, according to a confidential sheriff's report.
San Bernardino Sheriff's Deputy Ivory John Webb Jr. has pleaded not guilty to attempted voluntary manslaughter charges in the Jan. 29 shooting of Air Force policeman Elio Carrion, 21, who was a passenger in the car Webb was pursuing and is recovering from his wounds.

Minutes after the shooting, Webb, 45, told a sheriff's sergeant and a Chino police officer that he opened fire because Carrion had tried to charge at him, according to the nearly 400-page confidential report.

When he finally agreed to be questioned four days later, Webb had seen the videotape that aired repeatedly on television and claimed he used deadly force because he believed Carrion was reaching for a gun, the report says.

During a tearful two-hour interview with sheriff's investigators, Webb said he "saw what appeared to be (Carrion's) hand inside his jacket" and thought the airman was reaching for a gun and was going to kill him.

Webb said he was thinking, "I'm not going to see my baby, I'm not going to see my wife. I'm not going to see my dad." He then shot Carrion three times.

Webb said he had joined a 120 mph pursuit that was already in progress and didn't know why the men were fleeing. He also said he was struggling to keep an eye on both suspects and believed they were planning to flee or attack him.

Carrion's attorney, Luis Carrillo, said he believed Webb changed his initial story after realizing it didn't mesh with what the videotape showed.

"He falls back on a classic false version of events that police have used over and over again to justify bad shootings," Carrillo said. "When they shoot an unarmed person, they claim that they saw them reach for their waistband or reach inside their jacket, causing them to fear for their lives. Thank God for the videotape. It totally destroys his false stories."

Webb's attorney, Michael D. Schwartz, did not return calls from the Los Angeles Times seeking comment.

Deputy District Attorney Lewis Cope, who is prosecuting Webb, declined to comment about the deputy's statements or any other aspect of the case.

Pretty typical fallback when caught redhanded.

tecoyah · 03-15-2006, 07:50 AM

Whenever I see this type of report....I try to consider what a Cop must go through when he is forced to act in the split second process of enforcement. And to understand how flawed we humans are. Truth be told, I cant say I wouldnt have shot someone in the same situation so its a tough call to criticize the officer.
Simply by running from police, and forcing a pursuit, anyone in that vehicle must be considered dangerous, and thus more likely to be the object of deadly force when confronted. As for the story change....seems a pretty cut and dry Lie.

raeanna74 · 03-15-2006, 08:13 AM

Normally I would say, Cut the officer a break. BUT having seen the video, there were so many bad choices that the officer made that put him into a dangerous position in the first place. So many jumpy problems. No reason to talk the way he did to the PASSENGER. I hope that the investigation is done impartially.

I am curious as to why the driver was running, what the passenger was doing in the meantime and what his place was in the situation, and where the other officers were (it said he'd JOINED in the pursuit- so there were other cars already in pursuit), and What made the officer so jumpy. Sooo many questions, so many mistakes. Even if the passenger deserved to get shot I'd like to hope the officer is not allowed to stay on the force.

Marvelous Marv · 03-16-2006, 05:33 PM

In an unprecedented development, I agree with the last three posters.

I think the changed story will be his undoing. Oh yeah, if memory serves, the driver was on probation, or didn't have a license.

Vincentt · 03-16-2006, 06:28 PM

This all makes me wonder how often this happens when there is no one around to video tape it.

The changed story... of course, after seeing the video.

Marvelous Marv · 03-19-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincentt

This all makes me wonder how often this happens when there is no one around to video tape it.

The changed story... of course, after seeing the video.

That's what makes me angry as well. I've been told by some in a position to know that judges in less publicized cases know full well that a cop is lying, but they side with the cop anyway.

I don't mean to sound like I hate cops. I just want a better system for getting rid of the bad ones.

Poppinjay · 03-20-2006, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vincentt

This all makes me wonder how often this happens when there is no one around to video tape it.

The changed story... of course, after seeing the video.

A very similar incident happened in Alexandria, VA. A teenage BACKSEAT PASSENGER was killed because an OFF DUTY cop, working security for a Pancake House shot at a jeep because a waitress said they didn't pay their bill.

The cop said the vehicle was charging him, yet all the shots were in the side and back of the jeep.

Then come to find out that the kids may have left the money on the table, oh, we're not sure about that because nobody is saying.

Turns out the passenger was one of the most loved students, academically excellent, already accepted to a college...

02-14-2006, 08:35 AM	#46 (permalink)
glasscutter43 Insane Location: Vancouver Island BC	I would like to see the video of this "cop" taking it up the ass while he is in prison. __________________ Book 'em Danno

02-27-2006, 11:18 PM	#49 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Yea because no innocent people die in revolutions, and everything is always all better afterwords. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-03-2006, 07:28 AM	#52 (permalink)
Karby Psycho Location: somewhere	did you read the article...? the guy who got shot was the passenger in the car, not the driver...and he didnt have a gun. __________________ ~my karma ran over my dogma.~

03-07-2006, 05:14 PM	#56 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	Nice to know there will be a trial. I never saw an answer as to why Webb was so close to the guy, either. __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

03-15-2006, 07:50 AM	#59 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Whenever I see this type of report....I try to consider what a Cop must go through when he is forced to act in the split second process of enforcement. And to understand how flawed we humans are. Truth be told, I cant say I wouldnt have shot someone in the same situation so its a tough call to criticize the officer. Simply by running from police, and forcing a pursuit, anyone in that vehicle must be considered dangerous, and thus more likely to be the object of deadly force when confronted. As for the story change....seems a pretty cut and dry Lie. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-21-2006, 07:02 PM	#47 (permalink)
Maveric Insane Location: Houston, Texas	here in houston, i used to wait tables some years back with a guy who used to be a cop. it was not long after the incident where two houston cops anally raped a black man with a billyclub while several others watched and didn't do anything to stop it. the guy i worked with was one of the cops who watched but didn't do anything. he got a lawyer and paid some high $$$$ dollars and after several months and court battles was eventually allowed to return to duty... as henry rollins said - "the only good cops are the ones pushing up daisies...." fucked up shit happens all the time. it's mostly whether or not you choose to "see" it. -Mav

02-27-2006, 08:11 PM	#48 (permalink)
FancyPants Upright	Let's say (devil's advocate a little), that he DID say "DON'T get up". Just for fun now, hear me out. Now the kid says,"Ok I'm getting up now". What is your first reaction when you tell someone NOT to do something and they start doing it? (slowly I might add) You say "NO, I said DON'T do that". Those argueing for this position might also note he shot him THREE TIMES at point blank range. Not once, not twice, THREE TIMES. I don't know what crack you have to be on to miss a lethal shot even once, but what in the world would make you shoot three goddamn times? My guess? 1) He didn't know he was being taped (this is almost a given) 2) He had a grudge against the military or had some pent up anger towards a certain type of people (colored people, people who drive fast, people who wear certain "gang" colors) 3) (MOST IMPORTANT) He fired three times because if he killed him, he thought he could make up any bullshit story he wanted to about him looking like he was drawing a gun, or perhaps "coming at him" Maveric is also right in the fact a lot of stuff happens that shouldn't in the military, police, pretty much every government faction because the good people are far and few between, and the corruption either kills them, or suppresses their ability to do whats right. I'm with that other poster above...revolution.

03-15-2006, 08:13 AM	#60 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	Normally I would say, Cut the officer a break. BUT having seen the video, there were so many bad choices that the officer made that put him into a dangerous position in the first place. So many jumpy problems. No reason to talk the way he did to the PASSENGER. I hope that the investigation is done impartially. I am curious as to why the driver was running, what the passenger was doing in the meantime and what his place was in the situation, and where the other officers were (it said he'd JOINED in the pursuit- so there were other cars already in pursuit), and What made the officer so jumpy. Sooo many questions, so many mistakes. Even if the passenger deserved to get shot I'd like to hope the officer is not allowed to stay on the force. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma. Last edited by raeanna74; 03-16-2006 at 06:30 AM.. Reason: typos

03-16-2006, 05:33 PM	#61 (permalink)
Marvelous Marv Cunning Runt Location: Taking a mulligan	In an unprecedented development, I agree with the last three posters. I think the changed story will be his undoing. Oh yeah, if memory serves, the driver was on probation, or didn't have a license. __________________ "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher

03-16-2006, 06:28 PM	#62 (permalink)
Vincentt Addict Location: Tokyo, Japan	This all makes me wonder how often this happens when there is no one around to video tape it. The changed story... of course, after seeing the video. __________________ .