Baraka_Guru

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Craven Morehead

True story

True idiot

Willravel

I suddenly miss Terrible Terry Tate. He always had the perfect response for that kind of hogwash.

Wes Mantooth

I think I'm actually at a loss for words...The mans a walking pile of excrement and medical waste.

Edit: I think the women next to him is even having a hard time keeping a straight face.

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Xerxys

I'm not angry at Pat Robertson, he's an idiot and I blame his parents.

I'm angry at the dude who responded. Don't feed the animals you dumb fool!

Shell

Wait. The Haitian guy's response does not address the issue. The fact that the Haitians freed themselves of slavery by revolting against France is not the issue...the video clearly shows that Pat Robertson acknowledges that. The issue is the "pact with the devil"...is there any proof that this "pact with the devil" occurred? Is there proof that the Haitians promised to serve the devil if the devil made this revolt a success?

Poor timing for Robertson to bring this up, but if one believes the devil exists, as I do, then one knows he means business. It is odd that this tiny island, that is split in half, is well and prosperous on one side (the Dominican Republic) and the other side (Haiti) is, and has always been, the complete opposite. I'm not saying it's because of this pact with the devil...I'm saying I need more proof of this pact before coming down so hard on Pat Robertson for his comment. Apparently the video doesn't show the rest of the show where Robertson displayed a lot of compassion towards the Haitians either. So, was he just stating the facts?

__________________
..."Say what you think. Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" ~ Dr. Seuss

dlish

facts are usually proven beyond doubt.

can Pat prove his accusations? not the other way around. can Pat prove that this pact was made and by whom? who were the signatories, who were the witnesses? what were the details of the contract? if you dont have that infomation, all you've got it baloney.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist...sorry just had to get that one in there

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Xerxys

C'mon! How is that odd at all? Have you never been to any major metropolitan area? No, scratch that, ANY area! Here in NC the boonies, the upperclass, the middleclass and the ghetto blend in with a difference of a couple miles give or take.

Robertson on the other hand is one despicable, despicable man! I mean to call an entire region accursed after a tragedy due to a pact with the devil is an insult that goes beyond fundamentalism. Does he know what "The Devil" means? Were not talking about going on TV and insulting someone like many rappers do. The devil has a universal definition of evil.

To say that someone has made a deal with the devil simply displays godlessness to the highest extent. I'm not talking about lack of belief in God (or the devil) but lack of decency, empathy and straight out bigotry and racism.

May that fucker rot in hell, if there is one.

Baraka_Guru

As the Haitian stated, Haiti wasn't freed with the help of the devil, they were freed with the help of God: "God created us all equal." To live as slaves was not the will of God, so they fought for their freedom based on that. They chose not to live as slaves based on the colour of their skin.

Why can't Pat Robertson get that? Is it because they're black? Did America make a deal with the devil when they spun up the American Revolution against the British?

The lack of prosperity in Haiti has a lot do to with outside influences just as much, if not more, than problems on the inside. And wouldn't it be a reach to consider America as the devil's servants?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Shell

First of all, this is not a color issue...if people would stop calling everything a color issue then racism would cease. Can't people be black and white with opposing views that have nothing to do with color?

Secondly, this "pact with the devil" is an historical event (see last paragraph to view my efforts to find proof of this event*). The Haitian guy's response is his opinion that their freedom from slavery was orchestrated by God....maybe it was, maybe it wasn't...but that's not the issue. The issue is that a pact was made by the Haitians at one time in history with the devil...not with God. And Robertson is saying that the devil acknowledged their request.

Thirdly, a blend of upperclass, middleclass, boonies, and ghettos in the state of NC is hardly the same as the contrast between the Dominican Republic and Haiti...it goes way beyond monetary issues. We're talking multi-recurrences of natural disasters, and a whole host of other issues as well.

*Is it a "true story" that the Haitians made this pact with the devil to serve his spirits in exchange for their freedom from slavery? Here's what I am finding so far:

"On 14 August 1791, a black slave and witch doctor named Boukman led the slaves in a voodoo ritual. They sacrificed a pig and drank its blood to form a pact with the devil, whereby they agreed to serve the spirits of the island for 200 years in exchange for freedom from the French. The slave rebellion commenced on 22 August 1791, and after 13 years of conflict, the slaves won their independence. On 1 January 1804 they declared Haiti the world's first independent black republic. An iron statue of a pig stands in Port-au-Prince to commemorate the "Boukman Contract". ...Since independence, Haiti has been in a continual state of political struggle and wracked with poverty.

Let me say...my heart is with the Haitians and for Robertson to make this comment at the time of this horrendous tragedy, albeit factual, is insensitive at best...but then Robertson has never been one to beat around the bush.

__________________
..."Say what you think. Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" ~ Dr. Seuss

SSJTWIZTA

holy shit. the voodoo aspect makes that pact sooooo much cooler.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

Baraka_Guru

So maybe Americans are agents of the devil.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ring

Our planet won't know which way to turn over in its grave. Too many axes of evil.

dippin

How the hell is "the Haitians have made a pact with the devil" in any way factual?

Let's say there is such a thing as a "pact with the devil." Then let's say there is such a thing that "voodoo" is a sign of that pact. How is that any proof that the Haitians made a pact with the devil?

- 95% of the population of Haiti is Christian currently.
- The Dominican Republic also has a version of voodoo, as do most nations where African slavery was significant.

As far as the differences between Haiti and the Dominican Republic go, there are much more obvious reasons for that. But, of course, they involve admitting two centuries of military and economic exploitation by the west, but that is often not popular. It is not very popular to note that not too long ago the US actually invaded and dominated Haiti and killed locals indiscriminately, and when the US left Haiti was left with a huge debt. Or to note that several nations, including the US, pillaged Haitian banks at one time or another.

And as far as being racist, of course this whole myth is racist. Ignoring it doesn't make it any less racist. Why? Because the whole reason this myth gained popularity and became widespread in the first place was to explain how a bunch of black "savages" beat the French, who liked to think of themselves as the epitome of western civilization, so many times. In an era and in a world were slavery was justified by the supposed "natural inferiority" of blacks, the only way to explain that was to create this myth. Oh, and never mind that voodoo is not and was never about worshiping Satan, but merely a derivation of Western African religions.

SSJTWIZTA

i dont see how its racist. i also dont see any proof that it didnt happen.

...yup, this is the devils work.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

roachboy

the history of haiti turns on myths like that which circulated not only for reasons dippin outlines above, but also to justify the marginalization of haiti from the revolution forward. a kind of giant punishment for the revolutionaries having the audacity to imagine that things like the declaration of the rights of man applied to them. so of course its a racist myth---it's the same kind of thing as a blood libel story.
think about it: you had an economy predicated on slave labor and populations of slaves that exceeded that of the colonial slave-owning class and in haiti there's a Revolution, and a successful revolution that in the process enacts alot of the slave-owning class's worst nightmares about what might happen to them for, o i dunno, treating human beings are things? owning them? in the carribean in particular, amongst sugar plantations, the mortality rate about about 90%...so this was brutal system in every way---and it got burned to the ground. so of COURSE the "pact with the devil" myth is racist because it comes out of a system that was in itself obviously racist as part of a reaction informed by racism to people who were the objects of racism successfully fighting back.

so the "true" part of the myth is that it circulated AS A MYTH---and that is the only way in which the story "happened"

and dippin's right about voudoun. i would have though this common knowledge at this point.


sheesh.

the irony is that pat robertson for all his idiocy is working with more a sense of historical context that the television talking heads and more us journalists/editorial writers.
it's stunning to me that anyone would defend the myth....not even robertson, but the myth.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dippin

Sure, myths that were generated to both justify slavery and to "explain" how in the world these slaves beat the mighty French are not in any way racist...

It is amazing to me that there are people who go as far as believing "pacts with the devil" to avoid acknowledging a good chunk of western history.

By the way, the Dominican Republic was also freed from French occupation during that same slave revolt, so the whole "but the Dominican Republic didn't suffer much" bs actually contradicts the whole myth.

As for the "factual" aspect of it all:

http://www.lai.su.se/gallery/bilagor...%20is%20in.pdf

"Boukman’s presence at the Bwa Kayiman ceremony
is mentioned for the first time by a French
abolitionist in the 1840s. Boukman as a revolutionary
leader is well documented, but his identity as a
religious leader or Vodou priest was not established
until the writings of the historian Ardouin fifty
years after the event (Geggus, 2002: 81-92)."

And nevermind that one of the leaders of the revolution and governor of Haiti, Toussaint L'Ouverture, was actually Catholic and actually outlawed voodoo in the first constitution of Haiti

John Relly Beard, 1800-1876. Toussaint L'Ouverture: A Biography and Autobiography.

Constitution of 1801 by Haiti 1801

Now, this is not to say that "voodoo" was insignificant. Of course not. But voodoo is in no way "devil's worship," just a part of west African religions, and was in no way that widespread among revolutionaries.

ring

Thanks roach & dippin, for the factual enlightening historically correct insights.

It's stunningly painfull that people still believe, that any other religion outside
of christianity is false and therefore 'the devil's work'.

Sheesh and double sheesh.

dlish

so if the contract start date was 1st january 1804, and the time period was 200 years. then that means that the contract ceased to be binding on 1st january 2004.

since this natural disaster took place 6 years after the contract expired, i fail to see how this contract has anything to do with the earthquake.

im guessing god only sends disasters upon those heathens in poor countries. indonesia, bangladesh, india, pakistan, iran......hurricane katrina ring a bell?

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Baraka_Guru

Ditto.

Yeah, just like how Santa Claus also skips the poor kids' houses. I mean, how else does he do it all in one night?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lucifer

__________________
I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
- Job 30:29

1123, 6536, 5321

SSJTWIZTA

oh, that silly devil. first jiggles a country, then writes a letter full of lies.

dlish, hurricane katrina wasnt the devils doing. that was all loki.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

Baraka_Guru

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Wes Mantooth

Yeah I'm pretty sure Robertson blamed satan for Katrina too...or maybe that time it was sin...or homosexuals...or democrat voters...or whatever else he dislikes that he can pin the worlds tragedies on.

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Shell

Hi dlish, found this little gem above...good observation!
The only problem with this "pact with the devil" during a voodoo rally is that I've never thought of the devil as an honest guy interested in keeping contracts and without any thoughts of manipulation...he's not known to be a man of integrity. Plus, I don't think they have clocks and calendars in hell (so to speak)...not that I speak from first hand experience mind you...

__________________

__________________
..."Say what you think. Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" ~ Dr. Seuss

Martian

Accepting the Devil as a sentient physical entity for a moment:

If the devil is going to sign contracts with people, he has to keep his word on them. A contract implies an exchange of services, and presumably if the prince of lies welched, the people of Haiti would not be bound.

Contracts in the Earthly realm are generally enforced by the society that surrounds them. It stands to reason that there's some similar entity who would enforce the supernatural variety as well, or there'd be no point to them to begin with.

Even if we accept this contract malarky as the unvarnished truth, and if we take it as given that this somehow precipitated the current situation in Haiti, that would make the current sufferers at best victims of the folly of their forefathers.

There's simply no excuse for this kind of ignorance. True story.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Crack

This thread makes me laugh for more than one reason, so I support it. Hail Santa!

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Crack, you and I are long overdue for a vicious bout of mansex.

~Halx

Xerxys

I still think Robertson has a special place in the third circle.

Just sayin'.