WTF quotes from candidates - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dksuddeth · 01-08-2008, 10:47 AM

sometimes you just can't make this shiat up.

Quote:

"What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be," "Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do."

courtesy of Rudy Guliani

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 10:53 AM

Hopefully Bushisms won't be replaced by Gulianisms. I swear it's like they took 3 parts "completely and inexcusably stupid" and one part "Hitler-esque view of authority" and you get these idiots.

The_Jazz · 01-08-2008, 11:13 AM

Moved to Found on the Net since there's nothing to really discuss here.

Jinn · 01-08-2008, 11:18 AM

I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It's true.

ironman · 01-08-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It's true.

Have you ever considered moving to Cuba? seems like you would enjoy it.

Willravel · 01-08-2008, 11:26 AM

No, Googliani is describing "authority", not "freedom". Freedom is what the authority does not have dominion over, or rather what the people refuse to give to the authority. Freedom of speech is something granted that's not under the control of our government, for example.

ShaniFaye · 01-08-2008, 11:33 AM

Im sorry but if you read the speech in its entirety I cant say I disagree with it (notice this speech was given 15 years ago)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...50C0A962958260

Quote:

'Freedom Is About Authority': Excerpts From Giuliani Speech on Crime

Published: March 20, 1994

Mayor Rudolph W. Giuliani was among the speakers on Wednesday at a forum about crime in the cities, sponsored by The New York Post. The Mayor discussed how crime and law enforcement had changed in New York over several decades, and how society had changed. Here is an excerpt, as transcribed by The New York Times.

We constantly present the false impression that government can solve problems that government in America was designed not to solve. Families are significantly less important in the development of children today than they were 30 or 40 years ago. Religion has less influence than it did 30 or 40 years ago. Communities don't mean what they meant 30 or 40 years ago.

As Americans, we're not sure we share values. We're sometimes even afraid to use the word values. We talk about teaching ethics in schools -- people say, "What ethics? Whose ethics? Maybe we can't." And they confuse that with teaching of religion. And we are afraid to reaffirm the basics upon which a lawful and a decent society are based. We're almost embarrassed by it.

We look upon authority too often and focus over and over again, for 30 or 40 or 50 years, as if there is something wrong with authority. We see only the oppressive side of authority. Maybe it comes out of our history and our background. What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be. Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

[ Interruption by someone in the audience. ]

You have free speech so I can be heard.

[ Another interruption. ]

At the core the struggle is philosophical. There are many, many things that can be done in law enforcement to protect us better. There are many things that can done to create a government that is more responsive and more helpful. The fact is that we're fooling people if we suggest to them the solutions to these very, very deep-seated problems are going to be found in government. . . .

The solutions are going to be found when we figure out as a society what our families are going to be like in the next century, and how maybe they are going to be different. They are going to have to be just as solid and just as strong in teaching every single youngster their responsibility for citizenship. We're going to find the answer when schools once again train citizens. Schools exist in America and have always existed to train responsible citizens of the United States of America.

If they don't do that, it's very hard to hold us together as a country, because it's shared values that hold us together. We're going to come through this when we realize that it's all about, ultimately, individual responsibility. That in fact the criminal act is about individual responsibility and the building of the respect for the law and ethics is also a matter of individual responsibility.

Jinn · 01-08-2008, 11:52 AM

Thank you Shani. I was about to explain why what he said was true, if you don't live in a Utopian society where freedom comes at no cost.

But it seems he clearly explained it in the context he used it in. It's amazing how much people love to take quotes out of context.

I'm not a fan of Guiliani, but even I wouldn't stop to misquoting him for the purpose of character assassination.

Perhaps "civil society" would be better used in place of "freedom," but in his context, the meaning is nonetheless appropriate.

To those who disagree with his speech above, now that you have the entire context - do you really believe that freedom is free? Do you not have to cede authority to something or someone in order to be free, when other people are present?

dksuddeth · 01-08-2008, 12:03 PM

Quote:

We're going to find the answer when schools once again train citizens. Schools exist in America and have always existed to train responsible citizens of the United States of America

especially given the context of this speech, I have major issue with the excerpt above. I see this as nothing more than an advocation of a government sponsored and taught 'programming' of future subjects.
The schools, nor government, exist to 'train' me or my kids. That was my parents job, it is my job. Schools exist to educate our children in subjects like reading, writing, and arithmetic.

As to answer your last question jinn, no. Freedom is most certainly not free, but it's not bought with ceding freedom to authority, it's bought with constant vigilance against the encroachment from authority.

ShaniFaye · 01-08-2008, 12:12 PM

actually.....Im hushing now, this is going to get over my head and Im going to look dumb lol

Im sure there is someone that will state what I was trying to say about the purpose of the constitution better than I could have

Jinn · 01-08-2008, 12:20 PM

Quote:

As to answer your last question jinn, no. Freedom is most certainly not free, but it's not bought with ceding freedom to authority, it's bought with constant vigilance against the encroachment from authority.

I don't think you thought that through to it's natural conclusion.

"Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do."

If human beings did not cede to lawful authority, we would have none, correct? We'd have anarchy, by definition. Is that the type of "freedom" you'd like? There are countless problems with anarchy, with the primary problem being that it necessarily dissolves into a situation where someone is either ceded authority or takes it forcefully.

Your statement is furthermore a "chicken and an egg" situation; if we did not cede to lawful authority, we would not need to be "constantly vigilant"

I'd much rather "cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion" than live in anarchy, but it's entirely possible that I am alone in such a position.

ironman · 01-08-2008, 02:24 PM

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how freedom is "about authority" even in the context the speech was given.
Freedom is about "responsibility", freedom without responsibility becomes anarchy and anarchy is the reason why we all, in an act of freedom, delegate some of our liberties to the authority.

The_Jazz · 01-08-2008, 02:35 PM

ironman, I think you kind of defeated your own point there.

Freedom requires responsibility.
In order to prevent anarchy, we ceed some liberty to authority because it is the responsible thing.

Without some sort of authority there is no guarantee of freedom.

Jinn · 01-08-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ironman

in an act of freedom, delegate some of our liberties to the authority.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guiliani

Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

I'm not even seeing a semantic difference here. Sounds like you agree.

ironman · 01-08-2008, 04:34 PM

Lets all remember that English is not my first language, mkay?! I never said, neither tried to imply that freedom equals anarchy, on the contrary, freedom is about responsibility and not affecting others freedom.
I do not agree with Giuliani's quote because Freedom is not about Authority, authority is not necessary for freedom nor exercising it. Authority (and states for that matter) were born as a way to protect us from the abuse in the exercise of our freedoms and that's the way it must remain. Authority should intervene only when and only if someone abuses his freedoms affecting others.

bobby · 01-09-2008, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Moved to Found on the Net since there's nothing to really discuss here.

seems you might have misjudged the dicussability......

Jinn · 01-09-2008, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Lets all remember that English is not my first language, mkay?!

That may be why you disagree with Guiliani. What he is saying is exactly what you're saying.

ShaniFaye · 01-09-2008, 08:23 AM

Yeah, I've been sitting here trying to figure out where the ironman's disagreement was and all I see is a rephrasing of the same comment

01-08-2008, 11:13 AM	#3 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Moved to Found on the Net since there's nothing to really discuss here. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-08-2008, 11:18 AM	#4 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	I don't see anything wrong with what he said. It's true. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

01-08-2008, 11:52 AM	#8 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Thank you Shani. I was about to explain why what he said was true, if you don't live in a Utopian society where freedom comes at no cost. But it seems he clearly explained it in the context he used it in. It's amazing how much people love to take quotes out of context. I'm not a fan of Guiliani, but even I wouldn't stop to misquoting him for the purpose of character assassination. Perhaps "civil society" would be better used in place of "freedom," but in his context, the meaning is nonetheless appropriate. To those who disagree with his speech above, now that you have the entire context - do you really believe that freedom is free? Do you not have to cede authority to something or someone in order to be free, when other people are present? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel Last edited by Jinn; 01-08-2008 at 11:56 AM..

01-08-2008, 12:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	actually.....Im hushing now, this is going to get over my head and Im going to look dumb lol Im sure there is someone that will state what I was trying to say about the purpose of the constitution better than I could have __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!* Last edited by ShaniFaye; 01-08-2008 at 12:19 PM..

01-08-2008, 02:24 PM	#12 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	I'm sorry, but I fail to see how freedom is "about authority" even in the context the speech was given. Freedom is about "responsibility", freedom without responsibility becomes anarchy and anarchy is the reason why we all, in an act of freedom, delegate some of our liberties to the authority. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

01-08-2008, 10:53 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Hopefully Bushisms won't be replaced by Gulianisms. I swear it's like they took 3 parts "completely and inexcusably stupid" and one part "Hitler-esque view of authority" and you get these idiots.

01-08-2008, 11:26 AM	#6 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	No, Googliani is describing "authority", not "freedom". Freedom is what the authority does not have dominion over, or rather what the people refuse to give to the authority. Freedom of speech is something granted that's not under the control of our government, for example.

01-08-2008, 02:35 PM	#13 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	ironman, I think you kind of defeated your own point there. Freedom requires responsibility. In order to prevent anarchy, we ceed some liberty to authority because it is the responsible thing. Without some sort of authority there is no guarantee of freedom. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

01-08-2008, 04:34 PM	#15 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	Lets all remember that English is not my first language, mkay?! I never said, neither tried to imply that freedom equals anarchy, on the contrary, freedom is about responsibility and not affecting others freedom. I do not agree with Giuliani's quote because Freedom is not about Authority, authority is not necessary for freedom nor exercising it. Authority (and states for that matter) were born as a way to protect us from the abuse in the exercise of our freedoms and that's the way it must remain. Authority should intervene only when and only if someone abuses his freedoms affecting others. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

01-09-2008, 08:23 AM	#18 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Yeah, I've been sitting here trying to figure out where the ironman's disagreement was and all I see is a rephrasing of the same comment __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*