Mephisto2

I'm sure this has made the five remaining accused rather nervous. Personally, I think it's a bit unfortunate that these soldiers (undoubtedly guilty of crimes) are the only ones getting punished. Surely it goes back up the chain of command?

How many others believe Rumsfeld should at least take some responsibility? I'm not naive enough to think he directly ordered this kind of abuse, but I certainly believe his orders on using hardened tactics fostered an environment where they occured. Surely that means he should at least resign, if not for honourable reasons only?

I suspect not many Bush supporters will agree with me. But how do the military folk here think? Or will you simply rage against the injustice of it all and say the prisoners deserved it etc etc?

Mr Mephisto

Kalibah

I dunno - I can see how under times of extreme pressure- when you see your friends getting blown apart by the friends of the guys in your care- you might be a little err devious with them- like the naked pyramid



Now physical abuse- naw

Im not justifying it- Im just saying I recongnize how it could happen

docbungle

I think these things are more common in war than anyone wants to admit. The worst in some people come out in those situations. I don't think it has as much to do with the chain of command as it does a lack of supervision. These people were unfortunate enough (and apparently without much of a gift for foresight) to to be caught on film doing these things. I feel the punishment is warranted.

__________________
Bad Luck City

irateplatypus

there have been so many crocodile tears gleefully shed because of this, it's hard to really gauge culpability...

and "at least" resign? how about at most resign? if you believe he never ordered the abuse yet consider resignation the least of all appropriate consequences... i wonder what else you would place in the range of acceptability.

it's going to be tough to find military personnel who aren't also Bush supporters... i am both. militarily, i believe the immediate commanding officer should receive legal repercussions including time in jail. officers furthur up the chain should receive short-term punishment and be given damaging paperwork in their file (this, in the military, is a career killer. a "do not pass go, do not collect $200" under normal circumstances.)

but you can only crucify so many people so many times. invariably there will be a cry for more blood than that which is just. i think the military establishment sometimes has a habit of hanging a group of people out to dry to avoid any semblance of scandal. my reading of this issue seems to indicate that a measured response instead of a purely political one is taken... which i feel is most appropriate.

__________________
If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

Mephisto2

Oh absolutely. I agree.

I can see how it happens too.


But... even though I think what they did was reprehensible (remember the US is meant to be a shining example, so you need higher standards that most), I still think the commanders are getting away with it whilst the "grunts" are getting all the blame.

Mr Mephisto

Fohur2

I think he deserved more,but...whatever.

OpieCunningham

Sometimes I get confused with this whole torture/college pranks/murder issue in the U.S. military -

These people are not the people that killed captives, correct? But these are the people that were overseen by the people that oversaw the other people that did kill captives, correct?

Kalibah

err Its late but, if what your asking is Are the people in Abu Grahib people UNDER Zarqwai and others that are behading- then Yes they are. Those in Abu Grahib havent beheaded anyone (as far as we know... well as far as I know) but isn't a daycare- these people are there for a reason- they supported Insurgents in Iraq- the same insurgents who are beheading people....

Pacifier

Yes, from what I've heard some of the other testimonies were pretty interesting.

an interview with Frederick

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

Kalibah

Yeah but I think the fact that this soldier PUNCHED a prisoner so hard he had to be given CPR- that draws the line. I DOUBT- and this is "gut-check time" that high level US commanders were taking it so far as to have physical battery on a prisoner.

Humilate them? Sure
Scare em? Sure
But knocking it out is too far imho.

Hazing- like as in humilating them,scaring them, etc but stopping short of physical harm- seems like it shouldnt be a problem

Are you honeslty surprised soldiers "haze" prisoners? Dont you think that happens in our system? Hell it happens at college campuses

Pacifier

Sure?! No Way! I dont care what you do in college, but humilating or torture them mentaly is a nono. Additionally, the confessions made under torture are pretty much worthless, you can make anyone confess any crime you want

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

scout

I think what bothers me the most about this whole mess is not one officer has been charged. To me that reeks of coverup and hanging these NCO's and enlisted men out to dry. For all that to be happening and not one officer knowing it was going on is at the very least dereliction of duty for the officer or officers that were supposed to be in charge of these men and women that have been charged with crimes. Twenty years in prison and a dishonorable discharge is excessive punishment for the crimes. A dishonorable discharge would have been sufficient, twenty years of benefits is a lot to lose. The way the military has handled this before, during and after is pathetic. That's my opinion.

*edit* eight years instead of twenty.... 4 am is to early to be posting.

Rdr4evr

Eight years?! Pathetic. Even life in prison would have been too kind...Hopefully he will get the same treatment in prison as he gave his prisoners. Although he will probably be protected....

Willravel

This reminds me of all of the bumperstickers that say 'We support our troops!'. Let's be serious. There are bad people in every group. I suggest that you talk with some of the people there. Talk with a soldier on AIM or something. It's free. Get the real story.

There are plenty of bad soldiers that abuse prisoners and shoot innocent civilians in Iraq that will come back home to a hero's welcome. There is a terrible group think there. Soldiers still refer to Iraqi people as 'sand niggers', 'camel jockeys', and other racist names. We are not the holy force we are made out to be, and it makes me sick.

I come from an army family. My grandfathers both fought four our country in WWII. There is a proud tradition of protecting our freedom. It's a shame we stopped protecting our freedoms. I hope I can live up to the family tradition and help to steer America in the right direction again.

Kalibah

It was not for confessions- these people were already in jail


And humiliating them them- your disilusisioned if you believe that this was the first time its hapened- Human rights groups calling the naked pyramid "torture" laughable- in our prisons people have to toss salads.

Kalibah

I think the Supporting our troops stems from the group that said they hoped insurgents win. It was actually a huge debate because if you hope insurgents win- your hoping we lose...


I can spend time llooking up the actual sign / article etc but I hope someone remembers it ...

Pacifier

ok, but not exaclty my point. What i was trying to say is, if you torture or force someone to tell you something the result will most probably false as he will make up something just to end to torture.

__________________
"It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere. Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death
— Albert Einstein

daking

I guess you can say he shoulda got longer, but at least you aint got the UK justice system. This military fitness instructer raped 3 lads after already getting court martialed for indecent exposure.

He only got 4 years and no doubt hell be out in 18 months.

scout

Are you suggesting that he get life in prison for causing prisoners to take off their clothes and get in a pyrmid formation and perhaps a few other humiliating acts? That's ridiculous in my opinion. You are saying to humiliate someone is worse than murder.

gondath

I support the sentencing. Abusing authority over a helpless person is a terrible crime that should be punished to the fullest extent. Comparisons to our own prisons is silly. It's absolutely obscene what we let happen to people supposedly in jail to reform and think about their crimes. The extent of what went on over in the Iraqi prison is not greatly suprising to me. People always seem to find excuses to torture people who can't fight back and make excuses for it. There is absolutely no excuse for it.

Rdr4evr

Ridiculous? I would be fine with the death penalty if it came down to it. The way they humiliated the prisoners would be considered torture as well, and sometimes death is better than torture. I have no respect or sympathy toward any soldier to begin with for reasons willravel stated above, but going this far deserves severe punishment. Put yourself in their shoes and you will think twice before calling it a mere humiliation.

As for your murder statement. You don't think these "heroes" have murdered innocent Iraqi civilians? Do you truly believe that these guys are angels who are there to free the helpless Iraqi people? Please, I hope you don’t believe that nonsense.

pan6467

With the torture that happened (and yes torture can be worse than death because with torture they have relive that every day), how can we not be certain noone WAS killed? Wouldn't it be easier to show the pyramids and the BS than the ones we killed in prison because they died during torture? It'd be easier to keep under control also.

If we were told that there were Iraqis that died or were murdered during torture.... do you believe Bush would be reelected? Hell no, the election wouldn't even be close.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

scout

First off I didn't call anyone a "hero" or "angel"! Willravel has a valid point, some soldiers are inherently bad, not all by any stretch of the imagination. So far we have 8 or so out of a couple hundred thousand thats been cycled through Iraq. I ain't doin' the math, but that's a real small percentage. I also don't believe, by any stretch, that our soldiers are over there killing innocent Iraqis just for the helluva it. I think any and all friendly fire incidents are regrettable, but they will happen in any type of conflict. You need to review history, during past conflicts and wars carpet bombing whole cities was acceptable warfare. Contrast that to todays "surgical strikes" and you will see that every effort is taken to insure innocent life is spared. Don't you find it a bit ironic that you wish this man to be put to death but your willing to vote for someone, for President no less, that admitted in front of a Congressional hearing that he has done much worse than force a few people to get nekkid? I do agree that there should be some sort of punishment for these men and women that committed these crimes, however the punishment should fit the crime. I'm sorry, I just can't equate forcing someone to take off their clothes and make a pyrmid to torture, for whatever reason I just can't make that connection.

As far as heroes, go here and see what being a true hero is all about!
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/moh1.htm

scout

There's so many watchdog groups I believe we would know if someone was killed while being tortured. In fact, I believe there has been at least one instance of this already. I don't think it's a widespread problem. I believe our men and women in uniform are for the most part disciplined enough to restrain themselves.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and catch all kinds of hell but I don't care. I really feel if gaining information causes an enemy to be inconvenienced in any way other than rape, maiming and death and that information gained saves one of ours or our Allies troops and brings them home safely then it was worth it. War is hell.

/dons flak jacket and settles in for the bombardment ......

*edit* I added rape and maiming to the list of unacceptable behavior.

ravenradiodj

War IS hell, which is why it's so appallingly wrong to wage it for motives as base as oil profit and control.

scout

If it was solely for oil profit and control then yes, it's definitely wrong. However, when I go to the pumps and pay the price I am forced to pay I find it hard to believe that's the only reason we are there. If it was solely for oil then gas prices would be about 50 cents a gallon.

Strange Famous

a very light sentence. 25 years would have been more appropriate. These kind of "slap on the wrist" punishments send a very strong and negative message to the Iraqi people.

scout, why do you differentiate rape from other forms of torture which you find acceptable? If you believe that it is acceptable to torment and inflcit pain and damage on people who have no legal rights, protection and have been found guilty of nothing... why is rape any different from any other torture?

And how can you create a moral case against Saddam Hussein and his activity, if you support the use of torture for your own ends... do you think Saddam had people tortured or murdered because he got a sexual kick from it? He did it to protect and further his interests, in the same way you encourage American soldiers to.

As for war being hell... my understanding is that this was never INTENDED to be a war against the Iraqi people.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

scout

You all are acting as if our troops just cruise around and pick someone at random and say "gee, let's torture this SOB". The people that was in that prison was enemy combatants. It wasn't like they was beat for information, they was merely inconvenienced a tad. Apparently, a few was beat or worse and the culprits that commited those crimes are being taken care of by our justice system. Hey it's working just like it was designed and intended to work. I just don't feel guilty or sorry for any of them because they are the enemy. If a few detainees are forced to get naked and it saves a few lives down the road then it was worth it and a very small price to pay. I may not be seeing the whole picture in a politically correct manner, but that's how I see it.

Rdr4evr

Something tells me if the Iraqi "insurgents" capture American troops and torture them in the same fashion that the Americans did the Iraqis, you would want them all dead.

cthulu23

Wasn't there a Red Cross report that quoted some Army Officers as saying that up to 70-90% of Abu Ghraib detainees were innocent? Iraqis would be in the wrong place at the wrong time and be suddenly swept up in large groups....there's always the "false witness" factor as well. Even if the number is far less, say 1% total, than the system is "broken as designed" and is probably creating more threats to our soldiers lives than it is saving.

Lebell

Ahem.

To put some more perspective on this, they will also have a bad conduct discharge, which means that they will lose all their military benefits.

This and the conviction will haunt them the rest of their days whenever they want to apply for a job, apply for a loan, etc.

It seems like a very fair sentence.

__________________
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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Strange Famous

They are conscripts, and soldiers... the same as the American troops. I think the guy made a pretty good point below you. Would you equally support the Iraqi's torturing and sometimes killing American soldiers they captured to try and save Iraqi lives? (and I am sure captured Americans would have the possibility of meeting such a fate)

And the torturers, should in my opinion be facing the Iraqi justice system, for crimes committed in Iraq against Iraqi victims,

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

scout

If I'm not mistaken, they do torture and then behead any Americans they capture, whether it be military or some poor civilian there to lend a humanitarian hand in a time of need. Perhaps that's why I can't find any pity in my heart for them. That and the memory of the towers falling and then the Muslim extremists dancing in the streets celebrating the deaths of some 2800 souls. It doesn't seem to matter to them, why should it matter so much to us? This isn't a Gentleman's War by any means or stretch of the imagination, neither is it a fair fight as both sides have a distinct advantage in different areas. I see no need to fight it as either.

edited for spelling ....

scout

And no Strange Famous, they aren't conscripts or soldiers. They wear no uniform and they proclaim allegiance not to a country, but to men known to be terrorists. There is a distinct difference by any standard, the Geneva Convention included.

roachboy

it seems to me that the problem with this sentencing is that it enables people to pretend that now things have been addressed--and the military to do the same--further, it seperates this particular set of situations in iraq from others, like the reports of torture that have surfaced about guantanamo, and thereby removes it from the more serious question of whether the bush administration has created a climate that at least ignores and at worst condones the use of torture on prisoners--which is bad enough---who have not been charged, not been allowed trial--and who therefore could and in many cases are innocent.

this is bad business.
it is catastrophic for the bushwar in iraq
it is an index of the extent to which the erosion of civil liberties since 9/11/2001 can and should be understood as part of a larger dynamic.
it is a clear demonstration of the extent of the bush administrations contempt for law. and it seems to me that people at the highest level of this administration should be held to account for it, beginning with rumsfeld--regardless of whether this was or was not an intended consequence of the "war on terrorism".

ivan frederick is at once someone who should have been sentenced and is someone who is being used by the military as a damage control device.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Rdr4evr

They have not beheaded any American soldiers, just civilian contractors, most being non-American by the way. And the workers you refer to as guys who are there to "lend a humanitarian hand" are actually doing it for the money. Nobody in their right minds would go to Iraq and risk being killed to help rebuild. These guys know the risk of going to Iraq and if they get beheaded why should I feel sorry for them? If money is more valuable and important to them than their life, then oh well, tough luck for them. I am not justifying the actions of the "insurgents", but I don’t feel sorry for the workers either. I rather be a bum on the street without a dime in my name rather than be beheaded.

Do not forget that the amount of civilians killed in Iraq by Americans GREATLY out weight the amount of American "civilians" beheaded. Unfortunately American media makes American life seem much more valuable than Iraqi life, which is why you never hear about how many innocent Iraqi civilians have died, but you hear about one beheading for weeks on end. Sad really that people are so ignorant and racist that they couldn't care less about Iraqi life. When you watch the news, or for that matter, even the presidential debates, do you ever hear about the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis murdered, a lot of them being children? No, all you hear is the "poor" 1000 troops who fought with "bravery" and "honor" to help these poor souls..........all while killing the innocent I mentioned.

Revenge is not the answer, 2800 deaths on 9/11 have resulted in thousands more. Has terrorism been defeated? No. Is terrorism ever going to be defeated? No. Have numerous amounts of people died over nothing? Yes. Will terrorism and death of innocent people continue? Yes. War was not the answer and never will be.

cthulu23

So the imprisonment and torture of innocent people is fair play in the war on Islam that you describe?

Strange Famous

Very few muslims were happy about the attack on the WTC... but if push came to shove, most Iraqi's would probably point out that over 5 times as mandy Iraqi civilians have been killed in the present war than civilians died when Saudi terrorists attacked the WTC.

My own view is that the murder of civilians, the use of torture as a method of war, is wrong whoever practices it.... whether it is in Americn prisons, or carried out by Iraqi insurgents. If you wish to claim any moral basis for the war, surely you cannot take your morality from the enemy? If Saddam is a torturer (which he was), and so you say we must use torture when we fight him... how is their any moral basis? Do we take our moral standards from the worst of our enemies now?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

scout

I'm not claiming it's fair play or that it's the moral high ground. Quite contrary, I stated that it wasn't the politically correct view. I'm just being honest and I just don't feel sorry for the prisoners that was humiliated and forced to get naked. That's not torture or even inhumane. Now, if we started to pull out fingernails and chop off fingers then perhaps it went to far because that is torture and it is a different story altogether and I might feel some compassion depending on who it was.