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shakran · 02-16-2004, 10:25 AM

I got to the part where he answers all the questions and realized that his premise was questionable at best.

He answers all this stuff so authoritatively, as though he was there to witness the events himself. Fact is all this occurred 2000+ years ago, and it occurred more than a thousand years before printing presses made the mass-produced printing process a reliable form of communication. The bible was written by men 2000 years ago and was then copied BY HAND for more than 1000 years. Ever play Telephone? The message is totally screwed up after 5 minutes and 20 people. It's nearly impossible that the bible's original messages weren't screwed up after 1,000 years and thousands of people.

What we have to remember is that the bible is not an original source. It's a document copied from a document copied from a document copied from some guy telling a story that he read in another document that was written down by men supposedly listening to God talk. As such, it is NOT a reliable historical source, and many if not most of its historical assertions cannot be proven and in fact can be explained by much more logical means. Some examples follow:

Immaculate Conception: Was Mary a virgin, or did she sleep with Joseph (or another man) before their wedding night, crimes which could have seen her put to death probably by stoning. In an age where people believed anything mystical (remember, that even as recently as the 1700's people believed illnesses were caused by God or the devil) how hard would it have been to convince people that she didn't have sex - that God himself impregnated her?

Turning water into wine. Back then, wine was not alcoholic. It was grape juice. Not real hard to turn water into grape juice if you use powdered grapes and are halfway decent at sleight of hand.

Healing the leper: Yeah, I'd pretend to have leprosy too if you offered me enough money.

Walking on water: Coral reef just under the surface. Keep in mind this was a time when skepticism was nearly nonexistant.

In other words (and i'm not saying this is definitely the case) the miracles of Jesus could have been performed by any competent stage magician.

The truth is that we simply don't know. We cannot state with factual certainty that Jesus was the son of God, and we cannot state with factual certainty that he was a con artist either. IMHO the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle.

So when I see a pastor/priest/etc state that it is a historical fact that something happened, and then uses ONLY the bible to justify that claim, I stop listening, because I know that it is merely opinion, and groundless at that.

02-16-2004, 10:25 AM	#38 (permalink)
shakran Tone.	I got to the part where he answers all the questions and realized that his premise was questionable at best. He answers all this stuff so authoritatively, as though he was there to witness the events himself. Fact is all this occurred 2000+ years ago, and it occurred more than a thousand years before printing presses made the mass-produced printing process a reliable form of communication. The bible was written by men 2000 years ago and was then copied BY HAND for more than 1000 years. Ever play Telephone? The message is totally screwed up after 5 minutes and 20 people. It's nearly impossible that the bible's original messages weren't screwed up after 1,000 years and thousands of people. What we have to remember is that the bible is not an original source. It's a document copied from a document copied from a document copied from some guy telling a story that he read in another document that was written down by men supposedly listening to God talk. As such, it is NOT a reliable historical source, and many if not most of its historical assertions cannot be proven and in fact can be explained by much more logical means. Some examples follow: Immaculate Conception: Was Mary a virgin, or did she sleep with Joseph (or another man) before their wedding night, crimes which could have seen her put to death probably by stoning. In an age where people believed anything mystical (remember, that even as recently as the 1700's people believed illnesses were caused by God or the devil) how hard would it have been to convince people that she didn't have sex - that God himself impregnated her? Turning water into wine. Back then, wine was not alcoholic. It was grape juice. Not real hard to turn water into grape juice if you use powdered grapes and are halfway decent at sleight of hand. Healing the leper: Yeah, I'd pretend to have leprosy too if you offered me enough money. Walking on water: Coral reef just under the surface. Keep in mind this was a time when skepticism was nearly nonexistant. In other words (and i'm not saying this is definitely the case) the miracles of Jesus could have been performed by any competent stage magician. The truth is that we simply don't know. We cannot state with factual certainty that Jesus was the son of God, and we cannot state with factual certainty that he was a con artist either. IMHO the truth likely lies somewhere in the middle. So when I see a pastor/priest/etc state that it is a historical fact that something happened, and then uses ONLY the bible to justify that claim, I stop listening, because I know that it is merely opinion, and groundless at that.