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Old 01-15-2004, 04:55 PM   #31 (permalink)
Yakk
Wehret Den Anfängen!
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
Quote:
If you are of the opinion that "as we live in a deterministic world, we cannot have free will", does throwing in a bit of RANDOMNESS really help give you free will? After all, "you" can have no conscious input on what the result of a quantum wave collapse will be...it is of course...random!
Free will based on uncontrollable random events doesn't sound much like free will to me!
You defined free will to be events with no cause other than "you".

You failed to define what in the hell do you think "you" are. A homoculus that exists outside of spacetime and plucks at atoms?

Quote:
I am no scientist but I did read a bit on the subject. From what I understand, there is no total agreement on whether the quantum world really is random or not. Infact the word that scientists use is “uncertain”, which is not a synonym for random. Some believe that we simply lack the instruments or the detailed knowledge of quantum events to determine their precise cause. It seems that quantum entities do behave statistically, hence giving indirect evidence that they might be the under influence of some laws.
Hidden variable theory (the idea that the problem is our instruments aren't sensative enough to detect the data that would make QM go away) seems to require faster than light communication between the hidden variables.

And FTL implies the failure of causality, so just don't go there...

Now, lets say we are some homoculus poking atoms.

Maybe we poke atoms in a way we can't predict, at FTL speeds, causing QM! ;-)

The very fact that QM seems completely random and causeless is just because the homoculi have true free will, and are unconstrained by any cause in this universe. If we where able to find a cause behind the homoculi's actions, it would be proof that they didn't have free will!

Thus, showing that under your definition free will and randomness are indistinguishable. I think your definition is poor.

Quote:
That would mean that we did not have a single free choice in our life. All our choices were predetermined by our soul outside time to teach us the final lesson of life. Therefore we have absolutely no freewill.
But the soul would have freewill, wouldn't it?

It would exist outside time, but stop being so 3 dimensional.

I still hold your definition, or lack thereof, of free will to be ridiculous.
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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.
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