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Mantus · 01-13-2004, 11:11 AM

:::OshnSoul:::, thank you for posting that, it is quite beautiful.

This is just starting to get interesting.

Tiberry, So we are no longer looking at a being that created the universe but at a being who is and always was the universe. There is a fundamental problem with this. Either the being always was the universe or it wasn’t. Another words, if everything that will be already is. Then creation never happened. If we remove cause and effect then god loses its place as the creator or as the first cause. So god never created the universe for 'the experience of being all that is', because the universe already exists because it god and god is the universe. Which is a great concept as it completely alleviates any questions of motive or causality.

The major hurdle that I am having trouble with is that of discrediting time. If time is an illusion then movement/action is an illusion. Therefore if there is no movement, then what is this movement that we perceive?

Clearly all that moved was at point A before and is at point B now. If movement doesn’t exist and everything is already (and always was) at point B then point A is an illusion. Everything is a means to an end; we for example, are neither the first nor the last humans. Hence everything is somewhere between A and B. Since there is only B there is no distance between A and B. Therefore nothing that we currently experience exists. But we clearly do exist, hence I must conclude that movement exist. As time is a measurement for movement I must conclude that time exists as well, though out measurements can be flawed.

Now I can comprehend that all time already exists. Yet we humans can still subdivide time it into segments. Hence time is not simply a point. Time is dimensional; we can move thought the dimension of time. Lets say that time is a line (for simplicity's sake) and the present is a point on that line. The past and the future can be perceived by placing point behind or ahead of our point on the line. If this is so we can continue to place one point ahead of another in either direction of time. So a question occurs: either time is infinite or it is finite. If time is finite then it has a beginning and an end, which cannot be because we stated that god, is all that there is. If time has a boundary then we must ask what is beyond that boundary, which is an impossible question with our definition of god. Therefore time must be infinite. If time is infinite then god is in some form infinite.

So we have a very nice version of God. God is infinite, god is all that was and all that ever will be, and therefore there is no beginning and no end. Cool.

01-13-2004, 11:11 AM	#38 (permalink)
Mantus lascivious	:::OshnSoul:::, thank you for posting that, it is quite beautiful. This is just starting to get interesting. Tiberry, So we are no longer looking at a being that created the universe but at a being who is and always was the universe. There is a fundamental problem with this. Either the being always was the universe or it wasn’t. Another words, if everything that will be already is. Then creation never happened. If we remove cause and effect then god loses its place as the creator or as the first cause. So god never created the universe for 'the experience of being all that is', because the universe already exists because it god and god is the universe. Which is a great concept as it completely alleviates any questions of motive or causality. The major hurdle that I am having trouble with is that of discrediting time. If time is an illusion then movement/action is an illusion. Therefore if there is no movement, then what is this movement that we perceive? Clearly all that moved was at point A before and is at point B now. If movement doesn’t exist and everything is already (and always was) at point B then point A is an illusion. Everything is a means to an end; we for example, are neither the first nor the last humans. Hence everything is somewhere between A and B. Since there is only B there is no distance between A and B. Therefore nothing that we currently experience exists. But we clearly do exist, hence I must conclude that movement exist. As time is a measurement for movement I must conclude that time exists as well, though out measurements can be flawed. Now I can comprehend that all time already exists. Yet we humans can still subdivide time it into segments. Hence time is not simply a point. Time is dimensional; we can move thought the dimension of time. Lets say that time is a line (for simplicity's sake) and the present is a point on that line. The past and the future can be perceived by placing point behind or ahead of our point on the line. If this is so we can continue to place one point ahead of another in either direction of time. So a question occurs: either time is infinite or it is finite. If time is finite then it has a beginning and an end, which cannot be because we stated that god, is all that there is. If time has a boundary then we must ask what is beyond that boundary, which is an impossible question with our definition of god. Therefore time must be infinite. If time is infinite then god is in some form infinite. So we have a very nice version of God. God is infinite, god is all that was and all that ever will be, and therefore there is no beginning and no end. Cool.