Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Anonymous Republican Senator blocking ban on plastic guns.

Moonduck · 11-26-2003, 10:14 PM

No such thing as plastic guns.
No such thing as all plastic ammo.
No such thing as all plastic firing systems.

Guns have to tolerate high pressures, even one shot weapons must. Most plastics won't survive the pressures without having other undesireable characteristics such as not being able to stand the heat, warpage, brittleness, etc. So we discuss ceramics. Okay, ceramics will take. However, a fair chunk of the ceramics that will take have a fair amount of metal in them. Enough to show up on an x-ray? I dunno. That said, I can accept that a non-metallic barrel can be made.

No such thing as all-plastic ammo. There have been wooden bullets, and there have been ploymer bullets. neither worked all that well. Wooden bulets caused ugly wounds and tended to cause functionality issues in the firearms. Polymer bullets lost velocity so quickly that you could catch them bare-handed at 50ft. That said, a bullet can be made non-metallic.

How about the case/propellant, then? There are three types of ammo/propellant out there - cased (standard set-up of powder in case with primer at base and bullet in front), caseless (bullet in front, propellant formed into hard conglomerate approximating the shape and functionality of a case, and a conductive disk at the back for electronic ignition), and loose powder (blackpowder, old-style cannons, etc, no case, propellant is packed in the barrel, bullet tamped on top of it and it is ignited from behind via percusion cap or flint and steel or some other fire).

Non-metallic material is simply not advanced enough to be able to stand the pressure of gunpowder. The case will not work as plastic, period. If it somehow managed to be made as plastic, the primer would still need to be metal due to the structure of modern primers. Yes, technology could advance to the point where this is feasible, but not at current levels of materials science. Passing a law to prevent something not scientifically possible within a few generations of materials is pointless.

Caseless rounds can be made all non-metallic. Performance of non-metallic bullets is horrible, but it would go bang. However, caseless ammo tends to require electronics for ignition. This means you would have a plastic item (and plastic still shows up on modern x-rays) and there would be wiring, circuitry, etc. This would definitely ring some bells at the airport security screening. Additonally, it is possible to detect the chemicals present and volatizing off of naked gunpowder, even wehn agglomerated like in caseless rounds. As blackpowder is a commonly available explosive, it is something that is tested for the presence of randomly. Still, the bottom line is that electronics with inobvioususes is generally not allowed on planes.

Loose powder is likely the most dangerous and hard to detect. There is no casing, the bullet can be non-metallic, and the barrel can be ceramic. You might just have a non-metallic gun but for one thing - ignition. Much like the caseless round, you need fire somehow, and that is either metal in percussion caps or flint and steel, or electronic and we hit the same barrier as caseless ammo. There is also that trace gunpowder detection problem as well.

At any rate, in any production, multishot gun you will have assemblies that must be metal such as springs, slide rails, pins, etc simply for safe construction. Metal doesn't fail as easily as plastic does in firearms usage. No manufacturer is going to produce something as unsafe as a gun with plastic hardware. It would be fiscal suicide.

Given all of this and how bloody unlikely a plastic gun is, I would consider legislation on such a pie in the sky item to be a waste of my tax-dollars. The legislature has far more iportant things to do than argue over prohibiting something that doesn't exist.

11-26-2003, 10:14 PM	#25 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	No such thing as plastic guns. No such thing as all plastic ammo. No such thing as all plastic firing systems. Guns have to tolerate high pressures, even one shot weapons must. Most plastics won't survive the pressures without having other undesireable characteristics such as not being able to stand the heat, warpage, brittleness, etc. So we discuss ceramics. Okay, ceramics will take. However, a fair chunk of the ceramics that will take have a fair amount of metal in them. Enough to show up on an x-ray? I dunno. That said, I can accept that a non-metallic barrel can be made. No such thing as all-plastic ammo. There have been wooden bullets, and there have been ploymer bullets. neither worked all that well. Wooden bulets caused ugly wounds and tended to cause functionality issues in the firearms. Polymer bullets lost velocity so quickly that you could catch them bare-handed at 50ft. That said, a bullet can be made non-metallic. How about the case/propellant, then? There are three types of ammo/propellant out there - cased (standard set-up of powder in case with primer at base and bullet in front), caseless (bullet in front, propellant formed into hard conglomerate approximating the shape and functionality of a case, and a conductive disk at the back for electronic ignition), and loose powder (blackpowder, old-style cannons, etc, no case, propellant is packed in the barrel, bullet tamped on top of it and it is ignited from behind via percusion cap or flint and steel or some other fire). Non-metallic material is simply not advanced enough to be able to stand the pressure of gunpowder. The case will not work as plastic, period. If it somehow managed to be made as plastic, the primer would still need to be metal due to the structure of modern primers. Yes, technology could advance to the point where this is feasible, but not at current levels of materials science. Passing a law to prevent something not scientifically possible within a few generations of materials is pointless. Caseless rounds can be made all non-metallic. Performance of non-metallic bullets is horrible, but it would go bang. However, caseless ammo tends to require electronics for ignition. This means you would have a plastic item (and plastic still shows up on modern x-rays) and there would be wiring, circuitry, etc. This would definitely ring some bells at the airport security screening. Additonally, it is possible to detect the chemicals present and volatizing off of naked gunpowder, even wehn agglomerated like in caseless rounds. As blackpowder is a commonly available explosive, it is something that is tested for the presence of randomly. Still, the bottom line is that electronics with inobvioususes is generally not allowed on planes. Loose powder is likely the most dangerous and hard to detect. There is no casing, the bullet can be non-metallic, and the barrel can be ceramic. You might just have a non-metallic gun but for one thing - ignition. Much like the caseless round, you need fire somehow, and that is either metal in percussion caps or flint and steel, or electronic and we hit the same barrier as caseless ammo. There is also that trace gunpowder detection problem as well. At any rate, in any production, multishot gun you will have assemblies that must be metal such as springs, slide rails, pins, etc simply for safe construction. Metal doesn't fail as easily as plastic does in firearms usage. No manufacturer is going to produce something as unsafe as a gun with plastic hardware. It would be fiscal suicide. Given all of this and how bloody unlikely a plastic gun is, I would consider legislation on such a pie in the sky item to be a waste of my tax-dollars. The legislature has far more iportant things to do than argue over prohibiting something that doesn't exist.