Moonduck

There's a major difference between Amen and Joe Builder. They ae primarily a frame producer, not a bike builder. They are in business to design and sell frames. That generally means MSO's, safety inspections, and ugly liability lawsuits if their designs go tits up.

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Let me list a several companies which do not have engineers but produce streetworthy bikes : West Coast Choppers & Orange County choppers... ( West coast is trying to hire a mechanical engineer now, according to their site.. how often do you hear Paul Teutel go "Hey, call the engineer and ask him what the ultimate stress of our steering head is so we know how beefy to make it") ... and they DONT have engineers on staff... they don't need em. Any of tons of small chopper shops who build a frame with normal rigid geometry and put the rake 8 degrees over ( We have several here in Louisville ) don't have engineers and don't need em, they have tons of experience.

Can't say about WCC as I don't know for certain, but I know that OCC doesn't generally build frames. They order from Paughco, Santee, or some other major name that does have an engineer on staff. Any good frame builder otu there will refuse to build to a customer's specs if they know that the frame will not work. It's their asses on the line if it fails. Those small builders you mentioned usually don't make their own frames in production either. I know a few that do, and I am speaking of generalities, but most shops are using bought frames, perhaps with modifications.

There are shops and builders that build frames without the benefit of engineering experience, and I have no beef with them. Hell, I'm having a custom frame built for my CB750 (I am not bold enough to trust my ass to my welding skills), and the builder is in no way an engineer. All I know is that I like his designs, I've heard good testimonials, and the all the other details are in line with what I want (price, quality of material, timeframe, made to my overall design and application needs, etc).

You seem to be thinking that I am of the opinion that all builders show have an engineer on staff. I'm not and I am not sure why you're arguing in that direction. I am of the opinion that all Frame Producers should have engineering support or staff though. It only makes sense.

8 degrees over? That ain't rake. That's just metal flexion =P

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It is possible to make a roadable bike at home... you just overbuild the hell out of it by using the strongest and thickest components availible and underpower it. If they were using anything but the overglorified harley lawnmower engines ( Harley engines : 130 hp in the most extreme race-gas state of tune ) then there would be some serious issues to deal with, namely, belt explosion and RUB squids trying to go faster than what they are able to handle. ( Honestly, how many people 25 or younger can afford to buy a $37,000 chopper? )

Yup, and I am building a roadbike at home from a '74 Honda CB750.

And Harleys are over-glorified lawnmower engines. How expensive are those 140hp engines? Gimme a break. I can buy a whole bike for that kind of money, and it'll produce better numbers stock.

As to RUBs going faster than they can handle, you can do that on a 125cc dirt bike. It ain't the bike, it's the ride. Every time. Example being I will never plant ass on a 'Busa. I ain't good enough to play with one of those. I know my limits.

Oh yeah, $37k is waaaay low for a chopper these days. While you can find a nice bike for $10-20k, you are generally looking for $60-120k and up for the really serious stuff. The local guy what sells Bourget bikes usually has models from about $40-60k, and he's doing low-end mass production so his bikes come in costing less than you would expect given what they are.

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But... with YHWH you are dealing with a different breed of beast, and good thing it is not for public consumption. 99.9% of choppers built are based off some year Harley ridgid frame and they add in a wider tire and 4-8 degrees more of rake, and put in a 103 ci motor and that encompasses most every chopper ever made.

4-8 degrees? Hunh? That YHWH has around 30 degrees more rake. 4-8 degrees is almost unnoticeable, and more in the realm of what an offset tree produces. I would also go with about 70-75% of choppers made, and that is only accurate if you look at the current crop of choppers. Back in the 70's, Hondas, Triumphs, BSA's, etc were chopped as often as Harleys were. Those same Trumps, Beezers, and Hondas are still getting chopped nowadays too, there's just more HD's in the chopper world. The other problem is that you are using a big, big engine in that claim. Most HD choppers aren't running a Buck.

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Yes, it handles like shit compared to a van even, but it capable of handling on real roads. But eventually, one of these bikes (Like the YHWH ) is going to be released to the public , and it is so damn long that you have to scrape parts ( which would probably be a 20 degree lean with that thing). I mean, look at it, based on common sense.

Common sense doesn't always equate, much like my earlier comments on how trail looks like it might just be acceptable with that design. That lean is gonna be crazy though (especially on the left side where that godawful HD primary sticks out like a sore nut)...

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The YHWH is unsafe because : Extremely long... 10 feet? 11? Care to park it? Nope. I wouldn't. Turning radius at any given speed for any given 2 wheeled vehicle is based on lean, speed, and length... I"ll put a link up to the site on my next post. That things turning radius is probably in the mile range. A longer bike has to lean more than a shorter bike. Extremely low to the ground + extremely wide with the transmission and controls jutting out a foot and half... If I could find a few from the back I could probably calculate how far it could lean to a couple of degrees. My guess is 17 degrees before tearing off a $400 lever or bashing the transmission in. That might be able to take a turn 20 mph slower than any stock bike.

Okay, it's not unsafe for those reasons. Unsafe means the bike will have a higher chance of incident resulting in injury or death for the rider. The length isn't unsafe, it's unwieldy. Most cars are around 15-20', a good bit longer than that bike. Yes, it is longer, and thus harder to park, than a normal bike. Harder to park does not translate into higher incidence of injury though. The lean issue, while important, is also not a safety issue. Sure, you cannot lean as far, but that means you will have to take corners slower. Same can be said for people that ride vintage bikes or vintage cars. You accept certain limitations when you choose to operate niche vehicles. Also, look at the design. There aren't any levers to rip off. You go straight to trashing your $3000 custom primary instead of some $400 lever. Whee.

You're being nice in only saying 20mph.

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Linked brakes are good for RUBS. I agree completely. In my MSF, I was the only male there that hadn't ridden before the class. One guy who claimed to have rode for 3 years nearly broadsided my bike when he couldn't stop fast enough as he was only using the rear brake. This same guy failed the braking test several times, as HE WOULDN'T USE THE FRONT BRAKE FOR SHIT!!!!!!!!!!! Hell, I feel more uncomfortable using the rear brake as I'm afraid of locking it and high siding it.... I stopped , in the rain, in 14.8 feet, which would have passed in dry. These guys who drove their bikes to class even couldn't brake from 15 mph quickly. Sad. And they were beat on their brake test by 280 pound women who have never ridden before.

I haven't taken the MSF yet. I will be doing so either late this year or start of next year. I've been riding bikes since I was 6 and never had an M designation. I figure that getting back into riding after a coupla years off, I should probably go ahead and finally ride legally. I have kids now and would hate to get busted for riding without an M license.

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They should have engineers... but don't. You know another company that doesn't have engineers, but has sold a product for years and sells out every production bike they make? Here is their site : www.bosshoss.com ... Designed by a Tenesseee mechanic.

Those bikes are, quite simply, insane. Yet another motorcycle I would never put my ass on.