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Old 10-16-2003, 02:59 PM   #81 (permalink)
Astrocloud
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Quote:
Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus
Doesn't the word "created" imply religion in "we hold these truths to be self-evident; that ALL men are created equal"? What if you don't believe you were created? Maybe we should change it to "born".
1) Some of these questions are quasi-religous and have nothing to do with the legality of the pledge

2) The Declaration of Independance is a document of historical significance. Even if we were to change it -we would have to invent a "wayback machine" to redeliver it to the King of England (King George III) -in order for the new, revised document to have the same significance.

3) The Declaration of Independance in no way trumps the Bill of Rights when it comes to deciding the Laws of the United States. The Bill of Rights, specifically the First Amendment with it's Separation Clause is the relevant document.

Quote:
Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus

If the Pledge of Allegiance is an indoctrination tool, than why aren't you a Christian?
This makes no sense. If the Pledge of Allegience is an indoctrination tool, then why aren't I in the American Legion? I never said that it's particularly effective on myself... I did imply and now will specifically state that it is effective on some people.


Surely free will and indoctrination are not mutually exclusive. Perhaps you've never heard of the prisoner's of war held in China during the Korean war? They had a very powerful indoctrination method, (off subject) but it didn't affect everyone in the indoctrination program.

The Pledge of Allegiance by contrast, isn't particularly effective and even seems innocuous to most people. However the first ammendment is very clear on the separation of powers. By mentioning God the Pledge is in violation of the First amendment.


Quote:
Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus

Do you think all this indoctrination has taken away the rights of people not to believe in God?
It's possible that the pledge infringes on certain groups political and religious beliefs. (See 319 U.S. 624 (1943)). Yet I think in this case it's more of a violation of church/state seperation, which in fact takes away the rights of every US citizen.

I've heard certain people claiming that mention of god in the pledge trivializes the meaning of god... Removing the personal relationship that some (claim to) have and replacing it with a impersonal rote mention. In other words, some find it insulting to be told how and when to call upon thier diety.

Quote:
Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus

It certainly hasn't for me. I just think its a waste of time, money, and heartache for a bunch of semantics.


Yet you feel passionate enough to waste time talking about it here. Certainly others might even feel more passionate.

Quote:
Originally posted by Conclamo Ludus

Astrocloud the Supreme Court will never be objective, because they might not agree with you. They are definitely going to be impartial if the decision is against what you want them to.
I've never said that "The Supreme Court isn't objective because they don't agree with me". I said that the Court has been stocked with some fanatics who aren't interested in preserving the Constitution (despite their oath). The fact that you twist things like that; I would think -is an insult. If you want to start flaming, please start a seperate thread (probably in Nonsense).
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