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Moonduck · 09-25-2003, 11:09 PM

"No argument there. On the other hand, I worked retail for enough years to know that people RARELY go for quality when money is on the line. People'll buy the cheapest crap they can find as long as it looks kinda close to the good stuff."

True that, but with the exception of certain crappy imports, even the cheap stuff is pretty damn good these days.

"Point! You're absolutely correct that most schools teach this kind of drivel. Now, admittedly when I answered the original question I was talking about a REAL martial arts school, not a sport kidrate school. If you learn to fight for real, I'll put my money on the martial artist before I put my money on the terrified civilian with the gun."

In this, we agree 100%. I would also place good money on the martial artists that I consider quality from serious systems, over said civilian. Even over a number of non-civilians.

"And the other 10% you have to shoot the SOB and you wind up in jail. "

I am the first to admit that it is less than perfect, but I do like those 90% success rate odds =)

"I'm not saying martial arts are the ONLY answer either. I'm saying that given the CHOICE between martial arts and guns, I'd choose martial arts because I can use martial arts in ANY attack. I cannot use a gun in a non-lethal attack without a guaranteed jail sentence."

We agree more than we disagree. My main point leaned towards solid MA training in the majority of situations.

"OK, so let's say that we have a gun that never misfires, never jams - it's the 100% reliable gun (any soldier will tell you there's no such animal). "

Shit, I'm a civilian and I'll tell you that there is no such thing. I've put literally hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange in the 25 years I've been shooting. I know all about the lack of perfect reliability. I've even had revolvers fail on me, and they are as fool-proof as guns come.

"Now take the average gun owner, who's taken the absolute bare minimum training he could get away with to get his permit, and hasn't been to a range since. He's never been in any sort of fighting situation (which, btw you will get in a good dojo), and now he's being mugged. Vast likelihood is that he'll miss with at least the first two shots, and he has a very good chance of emptying his clip without coming close to his target. "

Well, I will stick with my 90% number and say that the simple act of brandishing a gun will get you out of most assaults.

"Scenario 2: Guy grabs you from behind, wraps his arm around your neck, and sticks a gun/knife in your back. Who's the more likely to get out of that situation, the guy with a gun in his jacket or the guy who knows how to disarm the attacker?"

Gun or not, Martial Arts or not, you're fucked in this scenario. If I am so completely fricken unaware that some dipwad could get that close to me without my permission, his ninja-ass deserves my wallet.

"The simple fact of the matter is that while guns certainly have their place and are very effective with dealing with specific situations, proper martial arts training gives a person a much broader range of capabilities than having a gun does."

No disagreement, but you also must admit that the gun gives one capability that MA does not - range. Honestly, it is an apples and oranges argument.

09-25-2003, 11:09 PM	#59 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	"No argument there. On the other hand, I worked retail for enough years to know that people RARELY go for quality when money is on the line. People'll buy the cheapest crap they can find as long as it looks kinda close to the good stuff." True that, but with the exception of certain crappy imports, even the cheap stuff is pretty damn good these days. "Point! You're absolutely correct that most schools teach this kind of drivel. Now, admittedly when I answered the original question I was talking about a REAL martial arts school, not a sport kidrate school. If you learn to fight for real, I'll put my money on the martial artist before I put my money on the terrified civilian with the gun." In this, we agree 100%. I would also place good money on the martial artists that I consider quality from serious systems, over said civilian. Even over a number of non-civilians. "And the other 10% you have to shoot the SOB and you wind up in jail. " I am the first to admit that it is less than perfect, but I do like those 90% success rate odds =) "I'm not saying martial arts are the ONLY answer either. I'm saying that given the CHOICE between martial arts and guns, I'd choose martial arts because I can use martial arts in ANY attack. I cannot use a gun in a non-lethal attack without a guaranteed jail sentence." We agree more than we disagree. My main point leaned towards solid MA training in the majority of situations. "OK, so let's say that we have a gun that never misfires, never jams - it's the 100% reliable gun (any soldier will tell you there's no such animal). " Shit, I'm a civilian and I'll tell you that there is no such thing. I've put literally hundreds of thousands of rounds downrange in the 25 years I've been shooting. I know all about the lack of perfect reliability. I've even had revolvers fail on me, and they are as fool-proof as guns come. "Now take the average gun owner, who's taken the absolute bare minimum training he could get away with to get his permit, and hasn't been to a range since. He's never been in any sort of fighting situation (which, btw you will get in a good dojo), and now he's being mugged. Vast likelihood is that he'll miss with at least the first two shots, and he has a very good chance of emptying his clip without coming close to his target. " Well, I will stick with my 90% number and say that the simple act of brandishing a gun will get you out of most assaults. "Scenario 2: Guy grabs you from behind, wraps his arm around your neck, and sticks a gun/knife in your back. Who's the more likely to get out of that situation, the guy with a gun in his jacket or the guy who knows how to disarm the attacker?" Gun or not, Martial Arts or not, you're fucked in this scenario. If I am so completely fricken unaware that some dipwad could get that close to me without my permission, his ninja-ass deserves my wallet. "The simple fact of the matter is that while guns certainly have their place and are very effective with dealing with specific situations, proper martial arts training gives a person a much broader range of capabilities than having a gun does." No disagreement, but you also must admit that the gun gives one capability that MA does not - range. Honestly, it is an apples and oranges argument.