View Single Post
Old 09-21-2003, 05:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
CSflim
Sky Piercer
 
CSflim's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by Kyo
I actually don't have much argument with TIT FOR TAT - I have a suspicion that I put in my own 2 cents for the sake of being argumentative (it's too enjoyable to me, somehow). It has been shown that given a random population, TIT FOR TAT will eventually take over - even against an exploitive strategy such as 'always defect', by putting 'evolutionary pressure' on the other strategy to cooperate. I'm sure you've read about it and agree, so no, I don't know why I'm bothering.
hehehe...yeah, thought as much! But don't worry...I do it too!

Quote:
The reason I bring up the dollar auction is the evidence of discord - obviously these people are incapable of cooperating. If TIT FOR TAT is such a dominant strategy - which has been proven again and again - why don't people follow it? I other words - TIT FOR TAT is evolutionarily stable, and would explain where our tendency for cooperation came from - except that the tendency to cooperate doesn't seem to exist in modern-day society!

In other words - in the actual prisoner's dilema (with real prisoners), how many prisoners would actually choose to cooperate, even if they had reasoned it out? Can you count on the other person to reason it out? Can you count on them not to take advantage of you even if you know they can reason it out?

In other words - taking a single-iteration prisoner's dilemma is a more accurate representation of our various decisions and conflicts than a repeated prisoner's dilemma. If you don't have a chance to retaliate - what do you do? It has been shown, through (and seems intuitive enough, anyway), that people will overwhelmingly tend towards defection.

Greed is all: Note that in a prisoner's dilemma with a finite number of iterations, you can defect at the last iteration to 'beat' the other person - since they will still be cooperating if they are playing a TIT FOR TAT strategy. However, if they wise up to that, they will also know to defect on the last iteration - so you will have to defect on the second-to-last iteration. But they will reason similarly, so you end up defecting at the third-to-last. Fourth-to-last. Fifth-to-last. Etc. Until the entire game is one massive defection.

That's the way real life tends to play out. TIT FOR TAT doesn't really help us in real-world situations. Even Axelrod admits that.
The big difference is that in "Real Life" you tend to think about things in an apprently "intelligent" manner. As such you logically think the prisoner's dillema through, and come to the conclusion that it undoubtedly better for you to defect.

However, our emotions/instincts are "unintelligent" creations of evolution.
We don't "logically" decide what our emotions are going to be, they simply "are" (to a large extent...social distortion aside).

The creation of a society, and the social norms that go with it would not have been a conscious decison by like minded individuals who intelligently came to the conclusion that they should form these social "rules". Rather societies evolved from uncooperating egoists, into TIT FOR TAT-like cooperating egoists.

Now TIT FOR TAT,a dn the prisoners dillema in genreal is only a rough mathematic abstraction of reality. Reality is much more complex (illustrated nicely by our inability to implement a 75%TIT FOR TAT strategy). However the simple fact remains:
Mutual cooperation is better than mutual defection.
And on this basis it has been shown that it is possible for egoists to "evolve" their cooperation, and so build a society.

Evolution cannot effect what conclusions we come to with our intellect.
Logically speaking, there is no reason for anyone to raise children.
So it would seem that it is in our DNA's best interest not to give us consciouness/intelligence, due to the fact that as automata we are forced to do our DNA's bidding.
But the problem is that there is so huge benefit's to intelligence...someone who is intelligent will be infinitetly more flexible when it comes to competing with an unintelligent automata.
So intelligence will appear to win out....but may not replicate!
This dead end is soved by our DNA giving us intelligence, but also keeping tabs on what we use this intelligence for, by giving us emotions/instincts/desires etc.
So we can use our intelligence to do what we like, but in the vast majority of cases, what we intelligently decide to do, will be benificial rather than detremental to our DNA's chances of replicating itself.
__________________
CSflim is offline  
 

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360