Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Do you believe the universe is inherently based off of order or chaos?

Kyo · 09-16-2003, 02:23 PM

Assumptions and perception make up the greater part of 'truth' to a human. Chaos and order, then, are a matter of which assumptions are made and how one is able to perceive.

Some of you seem to utilize math as your gospel. Numbers are representations of quantities we wish to manipulate in a theoretical fashion, within a system whose foundations are assumptions about the nature and accuracy of the representation. I believe it was Godel who theorized that it is impossible to create a self-consistent mathematical system (my wording may be inaccurate). The most popular example of this regards sets: consider set S, which we define to be the set of all sets that do not contain themselves. Does S contain itself? The paradox soon becomes apparent: if we determine that S contains itself, then by definition, it cannot be in set S because S is the set of all sets that do NOT contain themselves. But if S does not contain itself, then it is a member of set S by the same reasoning. This is a wrinkle that Godel proved would exist in any mathematical system.

Other evidence of this is the nature of irrational numbers. Irrational numbers are imperfect representations of physical quantities. Consider a particle's position in space, represented by an ordered triple of irrational numbers. It is obvious that the particle is somewhere, and somewhere exact. Its x-coordinate in a system is not 3.834508... give or take something. It is exactly somewhere. That we cannot represent it exactly is a failing of mathematics in attempting to emulate the real world.

Measurement is a form of mathematics. Whether you are counting the number of sheep in your flock or the thickness in atoms of a tungsten thin film, you are assigning something you see to a number. By doing this, you have introduced the inaccuracy and inconsistency of a human-generated, finite system to something may not necessarily be representable in that fashion. This introduction of error is what I believe introduces the concept of chaos.

My belief, then, is this: the universe is inherently ordered. Some set laws governs the behavior of everything, down to subatomic particles/waves/energy that perhaps we can neither observe nor measure. Even our minds are governed by chemical processes. Thoughts are electro-chemical processes within our minds, and a set of physical laws must govern those processes also.

Consider this: if particle A collides with particle B under some set of conditions, there is a law that governs exactly where those particles will move, at what velocity, acceleration, etc. There is a law that governs what energy is released where, in what form and quantity. If we expand that to include every particle/wave in the universe, it is theoretically possible to have predicted every single event in history from the Big Bang forward.

The situation is fairly synonymous to the modelling of a storm. If we could accurately model every particle in the air, we could theoretically predict with some degree of certainty (determined by the accuracy of measurement/modeling) the path and behavior of the storm.

Chaos, then, is the result of our inherent inability to measure and observe everything down to absolute exactness. Because of this, we are forced into the realm of 'probability', a synonym for uncertainty.

My thoughts, anyway.

09-16-2003, 02:23 PM	#28 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	Assumptions and perception make up the greater part of 'truth' to a human. Chaos and order, then, are a matter of which assumptions are made and how one is able to perceive. Some of you seem to utilize math as your gospel. Numbers are representations of quantities we wish to manipulate in a theoretical fashion, within a system whose foundations are assumptions about the nature and accuracy of the representation. I believe it was Godel who theorized that it is impossible to create a self-consistent mathematical system (my wording may be inaccurate). The most popular example of this regards sets: consider set S, which we define to be the set of all sets that do not contain themselves. Does S contain itself? The paradox soon becomes apparent: if we determine that S contains itself, then by definition, it cannot be in set S because S is the set of all sets that do NOT contain themselves. But if S does not contain itself, then it is a member of set S by the same reasoning. This is a wrinkle that Godel proved would exist in any mathematical system. Other evidence of this is the nature of irrational numbers. Irrational numbers are imperfect representations of physical quantities. Consider a particle's position in space, represented by an ordered triple of irrational numbers. It is obvious that the particle is somewhere, and somewhere exact. Its x-coordinate in a system is not 3.834508... give or take something. It is exactly somewhere. That we cannot represent it exactly is a failing of mathematics in attempting to emulate the real world. Measurement is a form of mathematics. Whether you are counting the number of sheep in your flock or the thickness in atoms of a tungsten thin film, you are assigning something you see to a number. By doing this, you have introduced the inaccuracy and inconsistency of a human-generated, finite system to something may not necessarily be representable in that fashion. This introduction of error is what I believe introduces the concept of chaos. My belief, then, is this: the universe is inherently ordered. Some set laws governs the behavior of everything, down to subatomic particles/waves/energy that perhaps we can neither observe nor measure. Even our minds are governed by chemical processes. Thoughts are electro-chemical processes within our minds, and a set of physical laws must govern those processes also. Consider this: if particle A collides with particle B under some set of conditions, there is a law that governs exactly where those particles will move, at what velocity, acceleration, etc. There is a law that governs what energy is released where, in what form and quantity. If we expand that to include every particle/wave in the universe, it is theoretically possible to have predicted every single event in history from the Big Bang forward. The situation is fairly synonymous to the modelling of a storm. If we could accurately model every particle in the air, we could theoretically predict with some degree of certainty (determined by the accuracy of measurement/modeling) the path and behavior of the storm. Chaos, then, is the result of our inherent inability to measure and observe everything down to absolute exactness. Because of this, we are forced into the realm of 'probability', a synonym for uncertainty. My thoughts, anyway.