Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Do you believe the universe is inherently based off of order or chaos?

Aias · 09-12-2003, 07:41 AM

That, of course, is the main question when dealing with most creation epics, the struggle between Order (creation) and the Chaos which threatens to tear the Order apart. This is why, in many creation epics, we tend to see opposing forces battling each other for power. The battles come as ways to usurp power, obtain power, restore power, etc. The idea here is that One force wishes to exert control over another force.

Most creation epics move in this general direction. God-beings in control are usurped (usually by their progeny) and a newer power takes control. Notice though that the creation epics stop when the world/universe reaches what it is today. It is as if the ideas stop because some power of Order won, giving us the universe we experience today.

Many presocratic philosophers also thought that this was the nature of things, a constant struggle between opposing forces to achieve dominance. When each strives for a hold on the other, they lose their footing to the other. The struggle to achieve this dominance actually achieves balance.

Heraclitus of Ephesus thought of the order of things like a Bow (one used to shoot arrows). The wooden part of the Bow is straining to break free of the string. The string is straining to hold onto the two ends of the bow. If one was to fail, it as well as the other would be rendered useless and no longer would it be a Bow. This is much how Heraclitus saw the universe, a constant strain of forces against and over one another; but if the strain were to ever stop the universe would no longer be the universe.

Similarly, almost a thousand years later, Newton saw the same straining of opposites between things in nature. For example: Newton saw the moon rotating around the earth, held in check by the earth's gravity, but wanting to continue off in a straight line due to the laws of inertia. Since the moon is not allowed to continue in a straight line, but still moves, it revolves around the earth. If inertia were to fail the moon would come crashing into the earth because of gravity. If Gravity were to fail the moon would go off spinning into space.

In this way the struggle between Chaos and Order are preserved. The universe we experience today is simply a reflection of the balance of opposites.

There are theories, however, as many of you have already noted that the universe is slipping more towards entropy. This would appear as though our universe is slowly becoming more chaotic and losing its Ordered state. This theory would certainly point back to a time where everything was completely Ordered. Complete order sounds more like a creation idea than an evolutionary idea to me, but I know little about such things myself.

09-12-2003, 07:41 AM	#17 (permalink)
Aias Upright Location: by the waters of Babylon...	That, of course, is the main question when dealing with most creation epics, the struggle between Order (creation) and the Chaos which threatens to tear the Order apart. This is why, in many creation epics, we tend to see opposing forces battling each other for power. The battles come as ways to usurp power, obtain power, restore power, etc. The idea here is that One force wishes to exert control over another force. Most creation epics move in this general direction. God-beings in control are usurped (usually by their progeny) and a newer power takes control. Notice though that the creation epics stop when the world/universe reaches what it is today. It is as if the ideas stop because some power of Order won, giving us the universe we experience today. Many presocratic philosophers also thought that this was the nature of things, a constant struggle between opposing forces to achieve dominance. When each strives for a hold on the other, they lose their footing to the other. The struggle to achieve this dominance actually achieves balance. Heraclitus of Ephesus thought of the order of things like a Bow (one used to shoot arrows). The wooden part of the Bow is straining to break free of the string. The string is straining to hold onto the two ends of the bow. If one was to fail, it as well as the other would be rendered useless and no longer would it be a Bow. This is much how Heraclitus saw the universe, a constant strain of forces against and over one another; but if the strain were to ever stop the universe would no longer be the universe. Similarly, almost a thousand years later, Newton saw the same straining of opposites between things in nature. For example: Newton saw the moon rotating around the earth, held in check by the earth's gravity, but wanting to continue off in a straight line due to the laws of inertia. Since the moon is not allowed to continue in a straight line, but still moves, it revolves around the earth. If inertia were to fail the moon would come crashing into the earth because of gravity. If Gravity were to fail the moon would go off spinning into space. In this way the struggle between Chaos and Order are preserved. The universe we experience today is simply a reflection of the balance of opposites. There are theories, however, as many of you have already noted that the universe is slipping more towards entropy. This would appear as though our universe is slowly becoming more chaotic and losing its Ordered state. This theory would certainly point back to a time where everything was completely Ordered. Complete order sounds more like a creation idea than an evolutionary idea to me, but I know little about such things myself. __________________ But I will seek the meadows by the shore: There will I wash and Purge these stains, if so I may appease Athena's wrath. Then will I find some lonely place, where I may hide this sword, beyond all others cursed, buried where none may see it, deep in earth.