Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post

chavos · 08-20-2003, 07:06 PM

CSfilm...it's pretty well pointless to have a discussion on the existance of God if you won't consider experiential evidence, which you so kindly describe as "I just know it. I can't explain it, i just do."

People talk the same way about love, freedom, justice... We're talking about an abstract concept, and a natural law...it's hardly the sort of thing that can be proven or disproven by rationalism. Now, if you'd like to live a 100% rational life, that's cool. I won't stop you.

But...and this is important, if you would stop for a moment, and consider experiential evidence, you may see that there are valid, if contestable reasons for having a faith in a God or God like being. This is THE difference between God and your llama. Nobody has experienced the power of the llama. Now you might note that someone experienceing a unindentifiable emotion or sensation hardly consititutes a rational proof. And you'd be right.

But, and this is another huge but, that sensation is still there. What does it mean? Logic can't tell you that answer...it can suggest that it is a normal/abnormal human emotion in response to a stimuli...but that doesn't explain why that's the baseline response, or what it means to have that response. That response does indicate something about the human condition, and what resonates with us.

Go find a video of the Tienamen square crackdown...the part with The Guy, and The Tank. Y'all know what i'm talking about. Watch that and record how you feel. Proud to be human, the same species as one so brave? Ashamed to be human, the same species as a person trying to crush freedom? What, pray tell, makes that scene so damn compelling? I posit that it is beleif that there is a natural law, that human beings desire freedom politically and socially. You can't rationally prove that. You can dance around the issue, talking about all the famous smart people who beleived in it, or the sheer numbers that believe in it, or some guy who predicted that it would occur. But you will have a damn hard time actually making a logical proof that there is such a faith in freedom as part of the human soul.

Now at this point, you may say you do not believe it is intrinstic, that humans may prefer freedom when they know it, but have no such idea burned upon their hearts, and that it is chance that it has arrisen, and there is no certainily of its victory as a way of life. Peraps you'd like to point me to brave new world or 1984. Thank you, those are fine suggestions...but what makes those books so compelling and tragic? That special something that freedom has... Rinse, wash and repeat, starting with step one of this "I can't believe it's not a logical proof!"

Finally, one may well come to the conclusion that: Freedom is a uniquely compelling idea, that has the ability to evoke conviction, and courage beyond what is reasonable.

There ya go...an example of the non-rational idea that has many of the same characteristics as faith in God. I hope it's been informative to read, as i've had a most splendid time thinking it up.

08-20-2003, 07:06 PM	#92 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	CSfilm...it's pretty well pointless to have a discussion on the existance of God if you won't consider experiential evidence, which you so kindly describe as "I just know it. I can't explain it, i just do." People talk the same way about love, freedom, justice... We're talking about an abstract concept, and a natural law...it's hardly the sort of thing that can be proven or disproven by rationalism. Now, if you'd like to live a 100% rational life, that's cool. I won't stop you. But...and this is important, if you would stop for a moment, and consider experiential evidence, you may see that there are valid, if contestable reasons for having a faith in a God or God like being. This is THE difference between God and your llama. Nobody has experienced the power of the llama. Now you might note that someone experienceing a unindentifiable emotion or sensation hardly consititutes a rational proof. And you'd be right. But, and this is another huge but, that sensation is still there. What does it mean? Logic can't tell you that answer...it can suggest that it is a normal/abnormal human emotion in response to a stimuli...but that doesn't explain why that's the baseline response, or what it means to have that response. That response does indicate something about the human condition, and what resonates with us. Go find a video of the Tienamen square crackdown...the part with The Guy, and The Tank. Y'all know what i'm talking about. Watch that and record how you feel. Proud to be human, the same species as one so brave? Ashamed to be human, the same species as a person trying to crush freedom? What, pray tell, makes that scene so damn compelling? I posit that it is beleif that there is a natural law, that human beings desire freedom politically and socially. You can't rationally prove that. You can dance around the issue, talking about all the famous smart people who beleived in it, or the sheer numbers that believe in it, or some guy who predicted that it would occur. But you will have a damn hard time actually making a logical proof that there is such a faith in freedom as part of the human soul. Now at this point, you may say you do not believe it is intrinstic, that humans may prefer freedom when they know it, but have no such idea burned upon their hearts, and that it is chance that it has arrisen, and there is no certainily of its victory as a way of life. Peraps you'd like to point me to brave new world or 1984. Thank you, those are fine suggestions...but what makes those books so compelling and tragic? That special something that freedom has... Rinse, wash and repeat, starting with step one of this "I can't believe it's not a logical proof!" Finally, one may well come to the conclusion that: Freedom is a uniquely compelling idea, that has the ability to evoke conviction, and courage beyond what is reasonable. There ya go...an example of the non-rational idea that has many of the same characteristics as faith in God. I hope it's been informative to read, as i've had a most splendid time thinking it up.