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Old 08-20-2003, 04:58 PM   #86 (permalink)
virus
Tilted
 
Location: NYC
Quote:
Originally posted by CSflim
oooh evidence. Now we're talking. Please enlighten me.

BTW, the following are not edvidence.

1. I just know it. I can't explain it, i just do.
2. I have felt God's presence.
3. One time, I was really depressed, and I turned to God for guidence, and then I got better.
4. Joe Smith saw a "vision".
5. The bible predicted stuff.
6. There is historical evidence that Jesus and Mary and Joeseph probably existed.
7. you get the picture...

EDIT: The above list was not really aimed at you Lebell. I trust you to be able to come up with some intelligent arguments. It was more aimed at some other posters, who may be a little more liberal with what one may define as "evidence".

I think I have a rather unique viewpoint for a response:

1. I agree, me too. But:
2. Me too. I grew up in a cult, though it was falling apart and is pretty much crumbed now. Trust me, if you want to feel something, you feel it. I saw demon exorcising, gay conversions, speaking in tongues. These people BELIEVED this shit. But it was largely or fully bullshit.
3. This absolutely works. Reflection and prayer taps into something. An atheist can say it's part of yourself, I feel it's something more. But I promise you atheists and non-monotheists can have the same experience.
4. Me too. And in some Mormonist churches, having visions is practically a requirement. Especially in meditative or half-dreams, you can experience seriously wacky stuff, and it's going to be intense- and that means often religious. I knew a Christian guy who saw G-d as giant Buddah-like figure and Jesus as a ray of light.
5. It didn't predict jack. If you want, start a thread and I'll post my research from the last few months.
6. Jesus, kinda. Mary and Joseph, sorta. After a good bit of reading, I think that historically they weren't the people they are trationally. Just read the Gospel, backtrack and follow the "prophecies," and check a few translations. If you do, you'll change your tune a little. Again, we need another thread for this one.

I think the most important statement you made is the feeling- our "point of view" which somehow feels connected and eternal. I'm certainly not an atheist, but I think anyone who sits down and researches the events in the bible can't think they are historically accurate (without doing some seriously off-the-deep-end Apologist work).

Is that enough to return us to the question, "Why believe the Bible?" I think believing in the bible and the chuch can be seperate and from believing it as history. So I say you believe it for community, but people generally don't _really_ believe it. Because if you do, it can lead to being seperatist, bigoted, and/or exclusive. And as they said recently in South Park... exclusiveness sucks ass.
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