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Dragonlich · 08-02-2003, 11:37 AM

Well, Moonduck, you did ask me the hypothetical question: "Government has also been abused by people to do bad things. If government bad? Sex has also been abused by people to do bad things. Is sex bad? "

This would definitely qualify as a rather dubious argumentation, in that I never said that either government or sex had not been abused. We were talking about religion. Therefore, I'd say that, although it may not technically be a straw man argument, it's certainly a silly one. Religious abuse, government abuse and sexual abuse cannot be compared like that; I will try and explain my reason for saying that...

Religion has been abused in the past by many people to allow the most dreadful massacres in human history. According to you, this has more to do with population pressure and power struggle than with religion. I'd like to dispute that. Religion in itself is to blame, at least for a large part.

The reasons I say this are the following:
- Religion is inherently non-rational; "accept what this book says without question, lest you be punished." It encourages one to *feel*, rather than to think.
- It is also inherently authoritarian; you are to listen to the elders/priests/pope, and do what they say - they know best.
- Most importantly, religion is always right; no matter the reality, the holy book cannot be wrong; anyone opposing this is a heretic and must be stopped from spreading their nasty ideas.

Because of these three reasons alone, religion *can* be used to justify the most horrid of crimes - it facilitates them, so to speak. Atheism is different, in that it cannot possibly be used like that.

Hitler and Stalin, your examples, may seem "secular" to you, but they weren't really atheists; they simply set up their own religion, based upon their person, a cult of personality if you want. Again we see the same three problems: these cults are non-rational, authoritarian, and convinced they're right.

So, just to go slightly back to your part of the line: any social system that encourages people to stop thinking for themselves, and accept whatever their leaders tell them, is inherently bad, and must be stopped. This includes nationalism, the cause of WW1 and WW2, but this also includes religion, the cause of many a massacre in recent history.

08-02-2003, 11:37 AM	#54 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Well, Moonduck, you did ask me the hypothetical question: "Government has also been abused by people to do bad things. If government bad? Sex has also been abused by people to do bad things. Is sex bad? " This would definitely qualify as a rather dubious argumentation, in that I never said that either government or sex had not been abused. We were talking about religion. Therefore, I'd say that, although it may not technically be a straw man argument, it's certainly a silly one. Religious abuse, government abuse and sexual abuse cannot be compared like that; I will try and explain my reason for saying that... Religion has been abused in the past by many people to allow the most dreadful massacres in human history. According to you, this has more to do with population pressure and power struggle than with religion. I'd like to dispute that. Religion in itself is to blame, at least for a large part. The reasons I say this are the following: - Religion is inherently non-rational; "accept what this book says without question, lest you be punished." It encourages one to feel, rather than to think. - It is also inherently authoritarian; you are to listen to the elders/priests/pope, and do what they say - they know best. - Most importantly, religion is always right; no matter the reality, the holy book cannot be wrong; anyone opposing this is a heretic and must be stopped from spreading their nasty ideas. Because of these three reasons alone, religion can be used to justify the most horrid of crimes - it facilitates them, so to speak. Atheism is different, in that it cannot possibly be used like that. Hitler and Stalin, your examples, may seem "secular" to you, but they weren't really atheists; they simply set up their own religion, based upon their person, a cult of personality if you want. Again we see the same three problems: these cults are non-rational, authoritarian, and convinced they're right. So, just to go slightly back to your part of the line: any social system that encourages people to stop thinking for themselves, and accept whatever their leaders tell them, is inherently bad, and must be stopped. This includes nationalism, the cause of WW1 and WW2, but this also includes religion, the cause of many a massacre in recent history.