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Oh yes they do. When a society as a whole determines that something is bad, it is bad. period.
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Dragon-for that society, it is bad. For another, it may not be. And the reason why it's bad is by human declaration...and we know that humans are faliiable. Murder is wrong, wrong for you, wrong for a society, but it's not wrong in a universal, what if nobody was watching way that i'm talking about. You state that this is all you need, and that's fine....but it's not absolute because it's dependant on a unsure authority. Morals change over time, etc....
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Lsd can make a true beliving christian minister into a serial killer, while the prozac can make him into a "vegetable".
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Beating and torturing the same man, could brainwash him in to murder, and breaking all his bones would make him a vegetable...it's long been known that a person can be forced or tricked in to bad behavior, etc. A physcially alterable brain does not disprove
the existance of a metaphysical mind or a soul.
Further, i brought up abraham to prove that faith is not dependant on an afterlife, or a permanent soul. Personally, i do not know what will happen to me or anyone else when death parts us from the world. My faith is that in the story of life, love and grace had the first word, and it will have the last. Apart from that, i make no claim... And this is why Abe is important-faith is not predicated on the bribe or promise of eternal life. God is not rendered unimportant if there is no life after death. There is still this life...and it is from this life that i have faith in God. It is for this life that i have faith in God. I just don't understand how you think you can "prove" athiesm by taking shots on the idea of heaven.
Btw, Regziever, i'm also having a great discussion...thanks.
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You didn't need God to sort those things out; only your own sense of morality.
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Paper: Perhaps. But it would be quite difficult to prove so. My faith that credits God with creating the moral law that we humans "discover" is not a logically provable or disprovable item. Sorry if that offends your sensibilities, but the trite and condensending phrase of "concession accepted" is not only rude, but it's also wrong. It is hardly a credit to your arguments to speak in that manner.
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But if it IS true, it would show a contradiction. The morality of God is absolute...yet he was about to do something amoral.
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CS-if it is true, we're in deep shit. If God changes God's mind, and is in to genocide, there is a whole lot more at stake than philosphical abstractions. I think we'd all have to prepare to be smited for what we've said here.... I say it's a false story because the continuing experience of God points away from that primative idea.
Religious ideas, just like rational or scientfic laws, evolve with continued input. Why expect the science of the ancients to be perfect? Why expect the religion of the ancients to be perfect?