chavos

I think you hit on somethign very true when you say It does...it explains certain kinds of things. Just in the same way that gravity explains a certain interaction that physical masses have, i would say God explains other realities of our existance. Something is real-we expereience it, whether it be falling apples, or what some would call mana, Holy Spirit, or other interactions with God...and when confronted with that reality, we use words and ideas to describe those things. With gravity, we have a theory and a mathematical relation. With God, we have theories, religions, philosophies, etc....

My intellect has a great deal to do with deciding if there is a big guy up in the sky, something like Santa Claus, who decides people's fates. Claims of physical existance, etc, can be rationally evaluated, and i am very supportive of this. But when evaluting a claim that isn't so straight forward, we cannot be so bound.

It goes like this, in my mind. "Gravity" is a concept we created...it's an idea that describes something it is not real, per se. The interaction that it describes, that particles attract each other is very real. It does not depend on our faith in it, our understanding of it, or anything human at all. Even if we could not sense it or understand it rationally, it would still exist. "God" is a concept we have created. It's a word we made up. But the interactions that it describes...are very real. We do not understand what we are trying to describe, and our sketches and models seem to always fall short, but they are working to tell a truth about a reality.

I don't think religion is dependant on proving that it is totaly shrouded in mystery. Our brains being physically capable of creating religious sentiment does not surprise me. I do not think to try to disprove your five senses by saying that they can be hot wired, and then claim that science and other observations are not reliable because of that.

Being the rational person you are, it would probably be because you had been convinced that the Llama had done something. Perhaps you felt the llama reach out to you in time of need, or you had an ephiphany about the nature of your life that you credited to the llama. It would be rather difficult to prove any of this, but i doubt that it would make it less real to you. No, the llama would not be a physical llama. But Purple Llamas and Gods are not meant to be physical beings...they are ideas.

Once you believed in that llama, i think you would use it to begin trying to decribe things that your other vocabulary cannot. Now, i see you making statements i'd consider spiritual in very humanistic, and rational terms. And if that works for you, i think you've got the vocabulary that's right for you. The vocabulary that works for me is to talk about those things in relation to God.

Now, one of those choices may be closer to the reality of what it is we're trying to describe. Just as certain models of gravitation are more accurate than others, and more resemble the reality of particle interactions. But niether of us know this...and i suggest that the rational path is to freely share and discuss ideas, trying not to priviledge our own way of doing things.

Perhaps. I guess it's sort of like asking why mathematics is unreasonably accurate in describing physical phenonmeon. (I once attended a seminar on the topic, and it nearly blew my mind...we use this one kind of tool for darn near everything, and it's amazing that it works so well.) If math also worked to describe religious truths, i doubt there would be many church goers... But it doesn't. And so in the abscense of a clearly definitive model, religions become various theories for humanity to work with.

The thing is that it isn't just about the Golden rule. I learn about self alientation from reading Paul's epistles, i learn about accepting the care of others when i read about the Annointing at Bethany, i learn about compassion when i read about Jesus calming of the storm...there are innumerable things i've realized about who i am from both my secular philosphical musings, and from my exploration in to the meaning of religious texts and creeds. Both help make me who i am, and this is why i claim that religions are capable of teaching us about ourselves.

In a way, i guess it does. I've come to think that i believe because i have experienced. I would say that you believe in what you do, because of your experience. We choose the words we describe life with because we learned the, or if we're brave becuase we made them up. So it is with faith...

PS: I hope you had as much fun as i have in squaring off, as you've certainly given me a lot to think about.