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smooth · 06-19-2003, 12:00 PM

Good points, BBtb.

These issues permeate all criminal trials. We have to order and trust that jury members don't leap to such conclusions without evidence they deem as proof.

I haven't ever prosecuted a crime enhanced by "hate" (or malice, for that matter, which is an enhancement factor in some states), so I can only presume the burden falls on the prosecutor to provide evidence along the lines of a confession or an accumulation of past behaviors that exhibit a hatred towards a particular category of people.

edit: and you are correct in implying that the mere fact that 3 guys harmed 1 of a different category is proof of anything, much less the reason for the crime.

Your reservations can be eradicated by reading a few transcripts (they are public record). Any prosecutor who wants to secure a case is going to present more evidence because your counterclaim (that any reason could have been the motivator absent any evidence regarding one's motive) is a claim any defense attorney (assuming the attorney cares about his or her client) would make and a claim the jury is required to agree with.

I find it interesting that many of the people here have argued elsewhere that murderers should basically be shot upon arrest, shouldn't be given extensive appeals, and certain laws shouldn't raise concern since they don't affect people who aren't doing wrong. Yet, here we are given a situation where someone has committed the crime but those same people are defending the accused from stiffer punishment even if they specifically targeted someone (which is an enhancement factor in other types of crimes, already).

unintentional -- low level of punishment

intentional, but general -- slightly higher level of punishment

intentional, and specific -- higher level of punishment

intentional, and specific, and planned -- highest level of punishment

always been, currently is, and likely always will be the scenario

06-19-2003, 12:00 PM	#60 (permalink)
smooth Junkie Location: Right here	Good points, BBtb. These issues permeate all criminal trials. We have to order and trust that jury members don't leap to such conclusions without evidence they deem as proof. I haven't ever prosecuted a crime enhanced by "hate" (or malice, for that matter, which is an enhancement factor in some states), so I can only presume the burden falls on the prosecutor to provide evidence along the lines of a confession or an accumulation of past behaviors that exhibit a hatred towards a particular category of people. edit: and you are correct in implying that the mere fact that 3 guys harmed 1 of a different category is proof of anything, much less the reason for the crime. Your reservations can be eradicated by reading a few transcripts (they are public record). Any prosecutor who wants to secure a case is going to present more evidence because your counterclaim (that any reason could have been the motivator absent any evidence regarding one's motive) is a claim any defense attorney (assuming the attorney cares about his or her client) would make and a claim the jury is required to agree with. I find it interesting that many of the people here have argued elsewhere that murderers should basically be shot upon arrest, shouldn't be given extensive appeals, and certain laws shouldn't raise concern since they don't affect people who aren't doing wrong. Yet, here we are given a situation where someone has committed the crime but those same people are defending the accused from stiffer punishment even if they specifically targeted someone (which is an enhancement factor in other types of crimes, already). unintentional -- low level of punishment intentional, but general -- slightly higher level of punishment intentional, and specific -- higher level of punishment intentional, and specific, and planned -- highest level of punishment always been, currently is, and likely always will be the scenario __________________ "The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman Last edited by smooth; 06-19-2003 at 12:12 PM..