urville

Me either. No such thing as perfect, but why would not having money immediately mean utopia?

See thats a misconception in my mind that it is a heaven for poor people. Maybe I suppose in the traditional meaning, in complete marxism.

---------- Post added at 10:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:41 PM ----------

Yeah, i'd say the rampant unchecked accumulation of capital seems to really be working out... exactly as Marx said it would. Badly, destructively.

It's the greatest trick communists (as we know them) ever pulled was to sully and soil the word socialism and communism with a dictatorship of the very thing the people tried to eradicate.

I think its hard to really say that as we have yet to see a truly socialist nation, the closest thing might be the netherlands I think, followed by Finland, Norway and Switzerland.

---------- Post added at 11:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 PM ----------

Side not only kind of related. thought you might find this interesting:
Curb Your Enthusiasm: The Left in the Canadian Elections | The Activist

I support this mode and method of thinking. As i do many of the forms of it. However, I differ on capitalism. A mixed system is vulnerable and eventually it will revert under the weight of greed, once they've devastated the US, they will just move on to the next healthy tree and suck it dry as well. It's done in smaller scale in everything they touch, mining, deforestation, work forces, etc. How long until Canada is next?

It's easy to take over because they use money and have huge amounts of it at their disposal. Everyone has a price, that is how it happened here. I don’t care what anyone says, if you have corporate funds, especially protected in anonymity in your political and governmental system? Your in a pretty damn free market.

You have the misconceptions. Socialists want to get rid of private land ownership because thatch how they assert totalitarianism, when i think the idea was really to put it in the hands of the "people". Another is the always omitted tenant "The man who does not work, does not eat."

I guess what i am on about is identifying what I find the problems with Marxist/Trotskyist and Leninist beliefs, and improving it. I'm divided on some things.

I am against state control within reason.

The term from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Some say From each his ability to each according to his production.

I look at what is going on, and I begin to wonder if there is hope to stop what is happening in America from spreading to the entire world without revolution. I don’t know, but its enough to make me question it.

At the end of the day though I can see a world in which a pure socialist system actually works, but not as Marx saw it and not utopian. there will always be liars and cheaters and thieves. The world is imperfect. However, i hardly think this adolescent (obsessed with fame and power) version is the end all be all of our evolutionary path. We can do better than this. We can do a better job of compensating for all of these issues we have no matter what system we use.

i guess i don’t see an argument for a systems whose only real purpose is to allow some to be better than others and lord it over them. Because I think if you paid everyone the same, hypothetically eradicating the poor via wealth, there would be many people angry only because they were not unequal, weren’t better.

I want to say more and discuss more, but... I’m exhausted and I'm losing things as I type them which means I'm probably not making sense like i want to... tomorrow...