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Originally Posted by Slims
Dlish:
I was making a point that the Burkha is cultural. I never said that Afghanistan is representative of the Islamic religion and I don't really think this debate is about religion, but rather control. Likewise, when a family from that community immigrates to the US or elsewhere and lives among other like-minded immigrants, it can be nearly impossible for a woman in that situation to suddenly 'wake up' and start making her own decisions.
To me the Burkha is representative of complete subjugation of one sex by another and it is exactly as you described it in Afghanistan: "slims, you're talking about a culture that has had no education for the last 30 years at least. many cant read or write, women are subjugated by their male counterparts, they dont have access to the outside world, and the basically live in a fishbowl that is a sandpit." This is a valid cultural sickness for a country to defend against, rather than a religious issue.
Since you agree that Islam does not require a face covering people should not be able to refuse an ID photograph on religious grounds.
Again, a convert who chooses to wear a burkha is at best making a fashion statement and at worst has no choice anymore. If it is not a religious mandate then religion should not be part of the debate. Even then, religion can go too far and require some regulation (human sacrifice, for instance). The question is where this boundary lies and whether prohibiting wear of the Burkha does more harm than good.
I seriously doubt there are many native-born French women who are raised in French society and suddenly decide "Hey, I am going to isolate myself from the rest of the world as much as humanly possible and subjugate myself completely to my husband." There are surely a few, but the debate is being driven by aliens who want additional freedoms not afforded to the population as a whole (I couldn't refuse to show my face when coming into the country through customs and a Frenchman would not be allowed to have his ID photograph taken while wearing a bear-suit or other silly mask).
Moderate Islamic families don't require or encourage wear of the Burkha. This ONLY effects people who are of the 'Afghan' mindset. So addressing the culture of Afghanistan (basically the only one in the world where Burkhas are worn) is a perfectly valid way to assess the reasons behind this practice.
Lastly, so that I am not sucked into a tangent I don't want to go down...I think the debate, rhetoric, and reasoning put forward by the french media and politicians on this issue are pathetic. I don't agree with the 'Why' but I can support some of the decisions that have been made.
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i welcome debate, and im open to discuss peoples thoughts on the issue. im happy if you or anyone else wants to throw in some thought provoking questions. dont let the OP stop you from going on a tangent if you think its worthwhile to the thread.
just to clarify something, when i say burkha i mean it synonymously with niqab.
i got this from The Independant. The article gives an interesting insight into the burkha debate in france.
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France wakes up to a burka ban as Sarkozy unveils a new era - Europe, World - The Independent
Since there are an estimated two million adult Muslim women in France, niqab wearers amount to roughly one in 1,000 or 0.1 per cent. The typical fully- veiled woman is young, French-born and a recent convert to a purist or radical form of Islam. Half are under 30 and the vast majority under 40. Two- thirds are French born. One in four is a white French woman who converted to Islam before or after she got married.
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i personally dont think the burkha or niqab has a place in the west. women here in the middle east gulf region wear it a lot, but you grow used to it here that you dont pay it any attention.
however, if my wife one day told me she wanted to wear a niqab, who am i to tell her what she can or cant do. ive never asked her to put a hijab on, and ive never interefered in her religious convictions. so, that decision would be hers and hers alone. I wouldnt be encouraging it, but i wouldnt be against it if she wasnt breaking any laws. i guess it would be the same if she decided that she wanted to express herself by becoming a tatood punk rocker. that'd be her choice again.
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The question is where this boundary lies and whether prohibiting wear of the Burkha does more harm than good.
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thats quite ironic. i question whether the burkha or niqab does more harm than good if it was worn in the west, and you're questioning whether prohibiting is does more harm than good.