Quote:
Originally Posted by dlish
slims, you're talking about a culture that has had no education for the last 30 years at least. many cant read or write, women are subjugated by their male counterparts, they dont have access to the outside world, and the basically live in a fishbowl that is a sandpit. you cannot seriously think that the people of afghanistan are representative of the islamic religion.
slims, the only islamic school of thought that ive seen that have said that the burkha is mandatory is the salafists, of which OBL and the taliban are adherants as well as the saudi regime. there isnt anything in the quran or hadith to justify that postion. the quran at best calls for women to cover themselves and be modest, but here is not specific reference to a hijab or burkha.
an interesting thought..if a french convert is wearing a burkha, and wants to continue doing so, how can she be told to go back where she came from or to not immigrate?
|
Dlish:
I was making a point that the Burkha is cultural. I never said that Afghanistan is representative of the Islamic religion and I don't really think this debate is about religion, but rather control. Likewise, when a family from that community immigrates to the US or elsewhere and lives among other like-minded immigrants, it can be nearly impossible for a woman in that situation to suddenly 'wake up' and start making her own decisions.
To me the Burkha is representative of complete subjugation of one sex by another and it is exactly as you described it in Afghanistan: "slims, you're talking about a culture that has had no education for the last 30 years at least. many cant read or write, women are subjugated by their male counterparts, they dont have access to the outside world, and the basically live in a fishbowl that is a sandpit." This is a valid cultural sickness for a country to defend against, rather than a religious issue.
Since you agree that Islam does not require a face covering people should not be able to refuse an ID photograph on religious grounds.
Again, a convert who chooses to wear a burkha is at best making a fashion statement and at worst has no choice anymore. If it is not a religious mandate then religion should not be part of the debate. Even then, religion can go too far and require some regulation (human sacrifice, for instance). The question is where this boundary lies and whether prohibiting wear of the Burkha does more harm than good.
I seriously doubt there are many native-born French women who are raised in French society and suddenly decide "Hey, I am going to isolate myself from the rest of the world as much as humanly possible and subjugate myself completely to my husband." There are surely a few, but the debate is being driven by aliens who want additional freedoms not afforded to the population as a whole (I couldn't refuse to show my face when coming into the country through customs and a Frenchman would not be allowed to have his ID photograph taken while wearing a bear-suit or other silly mask).
Moderate Islamic families don't require or encourage wear of the Burkha. This ONLY effects people who are of the 'Afghan' mindset. So addressing the culture of Afghanistan (basically the only one in the world where Burkhas are worn) is a perfectly valid way to assess the reasons behind this practice.
Lastly, so that I am not sucked into a tangent I don't want to go down...I think the debate, rhetoric, and reasoning put forward by the french media and politicians on this issue are pathetic. I don't agree with the 'Why' but I can support some of the decisions that have been made.