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Slims · 04-14-2011, 12:04 PM

I am currently in Afghanistan and from my perspective (at ground zero if you will) women wear burkhas because they are forced to.

You can make any argument you want to say otherwise, but in most places around the country if a women goes outside without a Burkha she will be beaten or worse (it is common for acid to be thrown in the face of an uncovered woman).

There is also the social pressure put upon her by her family... The pressure if often physical in nature. Conformity is not optional but obligatory.

Of course there is the 'brainwashing' that goes along with a lifetime of being always hidden from view, unable to get an education, speak to men, choose who to marry, and constantly being told it will be 'your fault' if a man sees you and thinks impure thoughts.

Which brings me to the reason behind the burkha:

If a woman 'exposes' herself and a man is tempted to sin, it is the womans fault, somehow.

Here in Afghanistan I would absolutely 100% support a Burkha ban. It is not at all a matter of 'choice' and is absolutely another control measure to keep control over a commodity (women). I think it is the only way to move forward here.

We have had women die of perfectly treatable ailments because their husbands would not even allow them to speak with a doctor through a closed door, with the husband present. Instead we have to ask the husband what is wrong with the woman and then our medics have to 'guess' what the most likely ailment is and treat accordingly. Of course we can't ask any question that involves describing a part of the body (aside maybe from an extremity or head). The woman can be screaming for help, but the husband has the final say.... We dare not force our way in to help her or it will cause a war against that tribe. A woman has no rights here, at least in practice.

In the United States I would not support such a ban on the grounds that free will should remain as inviolable as possible. However, I would absolutely support educating women from those families and offering them alternatives.

France is facing a difficult dilemma. The original debate was and continues to be politically driven. What is being lost in this debate is the actual situation faced by the women who (choose?) to wear a Burkha. I can see how the argument of free will can be made and I am tempted to make the same argument.

However, when you grow up in a fundamental community it is hard to 'choose' to disobey someone who will likely feel honor bound to beat you for it. By passing a law that discourages Burkha use it may allow some of these women to integrate into Western culture a little bit more.

The problem with this is that following a Burkha ban, the fundamental families are likely to simply not allow their women out of doors anymore; which makes the problem less publicly visible, but worse.

Dlish: I think you could find that the majority of the Taliban disagree with your premise that a man cannot force his wife to wear a Burkha...

Also, the problem extends beyond Afghanistan/Pakistan. Iranian authorities famously forced girls back into a burning building because they tried to flee the fire without their head coverings... I am sure if those girls had just told the authorities "you don't understand, I choose not to wear that head scarf" they would have let them flee...

Oh, and even in the US I would require that the full face be shown for any ID photograph. You can wear anything you want in public or private, but your ID has to have an accurate representation of who you are. Don't like that? Then don't immigrate. As Dlish said, it can't really be claimed to be a religious requirement, which means we are perfectly free to legislate as we see fit on the issue.

04-14-2011, 12:04 PM	#14 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I am currently in Afghanistan and from my perspective (at ground zero if you will) women wear burkhas because they are forced to. You can make any argument you want to say otherwise, but in most places around the country if a women goes outside without a Burkha she will be beaten or worse (it is common for acid to be thrown in the face of an uncovered woman). There is also the social pressure put upon her by her family... The pressure if often physical in nature. Conformity is not optional but obligatory. Of course there is the 'brainwashing' that goes along with a lifetime of being always hidden from view, unable to get an education, speak to men, choose who to marry, and constantly being told it will be 'your fault' if a man sees you and thinks impure thoughts. Which brings me to the reason behind the burkha: If a woman 'exposes' herself and a man is tempted to sin, it is the womans fault, somehow. Here in Afghanistan I would absolutely 100% support a Burkha ban. It is not at all a matter of 'choice' and is absolutely another control measure to keep control over a commodity (women). I think it is the only way to move forward here. We have had women die of perfectly treatable ailments because their husbands would not even allow them to speak with a doctor through a closed door, with the husband present. Instead we have to ask the husband what is wrong with the woman and then our medics have to 'guess' what the most likely ailment is and treat accordingly. Of course we can't ask any question that involves describing a part of the body (aside maybe from an extremity or head). The woman can be screaming for help, but the husband has the final say.... We dare not force our way in to help her or it will cause a war against that tribe. A woman has no rights here, at least in practice. In the United States I would not support such a ban on the grounds that free will should remain as inviolable as possible. However, I would absolutely support educating women from those families and offering them alternatives. France is facing a difficult dilemma. The original debate was and continues to be politically driven. What is being lost in this debate is the actual situation faced by the women who (choose?) to wear a Burkha. I can see how the argument of free will can be made and I am tempted to make the same argument. However, when you grow up in a fundamental community it is hard to 'choose' to disobey someone who will likely feel honor bound to beat you for it. By passing a law that discourages Burkha use it may allow some of these women to integrate into Western culture a little bit more. The problem with this is that following a Burkha ban, the fundamental families are likely to simply not allow their women out of doors anymore; which makes the problem less publicly visible, but worse. Dlish: I think you could find that the majority of the Taliban disagree with your premise that a man cannot force his wife to wear a Burkha... Also, the problem extends beyond Afghanistan/Pakistan. Iranian authorities famously forced girls back into a burning building because they tried to flee the fire without their head coverings... I am sure if those girls had just told the authorities "you don't understand, I choose not to wear that head scarf" they would have let them flee... Oh, and even in the US I would require that the full face be shown for any ID photograph. You can wear anything you want in public or private, but your ID has to have an accurate representation of who you are. Don't like that? Then don't immigrate. As Dlish said, it can't really be claimed to be a religious requirement, which means we are perfectly free to legislate as we see fit on the issue. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence Last edited by Slims; 04-14-2011 at 12:16 PM..