Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel
I'd actually like to hear a bit more. If a rabbi and an atheist can discuss religion and remain polite and respectful, then we can walk into a bar with a priest. Or rather we can be civil about a sensitive socio/religious/political issue like Israel and Palestine.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of Zionism's more religious aspects. I certainly understand the Jewish peoples' want to have a place to call home (well, I think I understand it. I've never been without a cultural homeland so it's a case of trying to imagine what it might be like), but I seem to recall a few other religions claiming they had legitimate property claims to the area and needless to say things didn't go well. It's simply impossible to wring the religion out of the situation or the location, apparently, and I think it's the minority of Zionists who are, forgive me, religious zealots, that turn me off to the whole thing. Cultural and national self-determination? Makes perfect sense to me, go for it with my blessing and support. God gave us this land? That's not going to go over well with the Palestinian Muslims who's house was just bulldozed.
|
To be fair, Will, I don't think it's supposed to. Religion seldom justifies anything to people outside its own community.
And I definitely agree that, as with so many other things involving religion, it's the extremely vocal minority of zealots who tend to leave a bad taste in the mouth.
What I am about to say is only my opinion, and I can imagine it may not be a popular one in some parts, so I hope it is not found to be unduly offensive.
I do believe that God gave the Land of Israel to the Jewish People, and that the return of great numbers of Jews to found a state in that Land may well be the first step on a long road toward the coming of the messiah.
But that said, where I differ from most Religious Zionists is that I also think that God does not love unnecessary bloodshed and suffering, no matter who is doing the shedding of blood or the suffering. And while God may, indeed, have given us the entirety of the Land of Israel, the State of Israel will never know peace if it tries to hold onto all that Land, and the Arabs living in what we now call the Palestinian Territories (both Gaza and the West Bank) have a legitimate de facto claim of residence upon those areas. And while it may behoove us as the Jewish People to defend ourselves and our land when necessary, it does not behoove us to shed more blood than necessary, or to prolong the suffering of others, or to forget our duties to the strangers among us.
While I vehemently believe in Israel's right to exist, and in its right to defend itself from terrorism, I also think that there are rules even in war. And some weapons should not be used, like phosphorus. That is a hideous weapon, and I am not even convinced it is ethical to use on professional soldiery, let alone in situations where civilian collateral damage is inevitable. Israel is wrong to use it (and so were those Palestinian terrorists who used it, the other day), and wrong to use cluster bombs-- another weapon of dubious ethicality.
And weaponry aside, it is a phenomenally bad idea for Israel to simply lock the Territories behind a fence and leave them to their own devices. Which isn't to say that I think the fence ought to be torn down-- it saves far too many lives for that. But we didn't just keep terrorists out of Israel, we kept too much potential economic aid out of the Territories. Now, admittedly, Gaza is a bit of a tough nut to crack, because Hamas are crazy and dangerous. But in the West Bank, which seems to be a somewhat less dangerous and fair pinch less crazy place, if the so-called Palestinian authorities aren't able to improve the infrastructure, build and supply hospitals and food stores, and so forth, then I believe it is the duty of Israel to go in and do those things, and not just let the Palestinians there become poorer and poorer and ever more bitter (and more apt to radicalize).
And what is more, there is a chronic problem in Israel itself of discrimination against Israeli Arabs, and widespread violations of their civil rights. And that has got to stop. It is profoundly unethical, and there are about a zillion different commandments in the Torah that specifically tell us not to oppress those who dwell among us, because we ourselves were once sojourners in a land not our own.
And I believe that ultimately, peace is going to require a land swap (especially since I personally don't believe in splitting Jerusalem again): whatever we keep, we have an obligation to give an equal portion to the Palestinians. And I feel strongly that when the time for this swap comes, just as we will doubtless tell Palestinians living in areas to be agreed as being permanently acknowledged to be Israel that they must either agree to Israeli citizenship or vacate the area, we must tell Jews living in Jewish towns in areas to be permanently ceded to the future Palestinian state that they must either agree to be legal residents or citizens of Palestine, or vacate the area.
I truly believe that God would rather see us give up some of our land to save lives and prevent suffering, then to keep it at a high cost in lives and trauma. And if it is truly His will that we once again have the entirety of the Land, then somehow it will come back to us, a hundred years or a thousand years from now. We are a people of millennia. We can afford to be patient. And if it is not His will, then we are all the more doing the right thing now to divide the land and save blood from being shed.
The leadership on both sides are prize arrangements of douchebags-- and what is worse, they are douchebags who also suffer from far too many internal crises to focus well on this problem. Some of my more right-wing friends say that the problem is that Israel has no dialogue partner in the Palestinian Authority government, and while that may or may not be true, it doesn't excuse the persistent dumbassery of the Israeli government on this issue. And some of my more left-wing friends think that we should just invite everyone to a seat at the table, and just take the word of Hamas that it would like to negotiate in good faith, despite its charter calling for the destruction of Israel. And this position, too, is dumbassery. Sure, sooner or later opposing sides have to talk, but I don't think it's out of line for one party to make a prerequisite that the other party first has to officially retract the death warrant they've put out on the first party.
Anyhow, I do think this situation is solvable, but we all have to face up to the fact that nobody is going to come away from this entirely happy, or with everything they want. But I think more people-- Israeli people and Palestinian people-- want peace than not.
And religiously, while I think it is a great good for there to be a Jewish State in the Jewish Land again, it is also a great good for us to seek peace, and to try and resolve our problems with our neighbors-- especially when they are also children of Abraham.