Thread: An Act of War?
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:57 AM   #231 (permalink)
roachboy
 
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as of this afternoon, nato estimates the the air strikes have destroyed about 30% of gadhafi's military capacity.

there is a persistent problem of organization amongst the rebel forces. there is no small degree of confusion about the role--if there is one----for people who were with gadhafi's military that went over to the rebels.

there are also a lot of negociations....one thing that's been clear is that gadhafi is looking for a way out. but at this point things appear to be at an impasse because his sons were seemingly under the impression that it'd be cool for them to hang out and it isn't so far as the rebels are concerned.


the rebels didn't manage to hold onto brega---they claim, as they have been saying, not to be able to match gadhafi's weaponry. the solution there is probably to arm the rebels faster. no-one knows who's not on the ground exactly what is happening on that front. the fog of disinformation...


there was to be a tanker into tobruk to export a million or so gallons of oil under the aegis of the rebel government in benghazi. it would not be at all surprising to find that preventing this from happening is the objective behind the push into brega.


its delusional to imagine that short of ground involvement that the west--or any part of the west, including the united states---is in a position to simply stride manfully into libya and straighten shit out. there's problems of the united states military being stretched thanks to conservative policy incompetence in the bush period that generated such chaos that there's been no way out of either quagmire to this point. the british are saying that they're stretched as well thanks to iraq and afghanistan. so more excellent outcomes from conservative incomptence.

france is finding itself getting sucked into the civil war in the ivory coast.


basically, the rebel forces need to play for time.
there's no way for nato to stop the air strikes.

the united states is backing down from running the show in libya. so "we" aren't really "doing" anything alone. i don't see anything in this "what are we doing?" nonsense. this is an international operation. this is a basic empirical fact.

the gambit that gadhafi seems to be playing is that there isn't the stomach for a real fight---and he's structured the militia situation so that he's in a position to bring it on to the rebels.

at the same time, the defections from the government are real.
and there is a search on for a way out from gadhafi's side.

---------- Post added at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:33 PM ----------

aside, later: all afternoon i've been seeing tweets and other fragments from the rebels arguing that they're not being given what they need, that nato isn't doing enough. i wasn't sure i understood it until i saw this:

Quote:
Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign

US withdrawal of attack planes puts pressure on European countries, especially France, to offer more strike capability

Nato is running short of attack aircraft for its bombing campaign against Muammar Gaddafi only days after taking command of the Libyan mission from a coalition led by the US, France and Britain.

David Cameron has pledged four more British Tornado jets on top of eight already being used for the air strikes. But pressure is growing for other European countries, especially France, to offer more after the Americans withdrew their attack aircraft from the campaign on Monday.

"We will need more strike capability," a Nato official said.

Since the French launched the first raids on Libya 16 days ago, the coalition and Nato have destroyed around 30% of Gaddafi's military capacity, Lieutenant General Charles Bouchard, the Canadian officer leading the air campaign, told Nato ambassadors.

But attempts to "degrade" the Libyan leader's firepower further were being complicated by a shift in tactics by Gaddafi, said Brigadier General Marc van Uhm, a senior Nato military planner.

"They are using light vehicles and trucks to transport," while hiding tanks and heavy weapons, he said.

"We try to identify where those heavy assets are, because we have seen they have chosen to hide themselves into urban areas to prevent being targeted, even using human shields."

Nato officials insisted the pace of the air operations was being maintained. But it has emerged that the US and the French, who have been the two biggest military players until now, are retaining national control over substantial military forces in the Mediterranean and refusing to submit them to Nato authority.

The French have the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier, two escorting frigates and 16 fighter aircraft, none of which are under the Nato command and control which was announced last Thursday.

Until last week, President Nicolas Sarkozy was the loudest opponent of handing over the operations to Nato control. Nonetheless, the French are not only taking part in the Nato campaign, but are the biggest non-US contributors, with 33 aircraft, double Britain's 17. Not all of these are strike aircraft.

Until Monday, the Americans had performed most of the attacks on ground targets, with the French executing around a quarter and the British around a 10th. Given the US retreat, Nato is seeking to fill the gap, but only the British have pledged more.

"We're very happy that one country decided to bring in more assets," said Van Uhm.

When Nato took over from the coalition it was stressed that it had assumed "sole command and control" of all air operations.

However, countries are dipping in and out of Nato command, withdrawing "air assets" for national operations before returning them to alliance control.

"It's pretty clear that Nato is in command. Nato is in the lead," said Van Uhm. "There are assets under national control in the area. But General Bouchard is commanding what Nato does ... You could say nothing is happening without Nato knowing."

The general stressed that no air strikes on ground targets in Libya had taken place outside Nato's command.

Six countries are believed to be engaged in the bombing campaign – France, Britain, Canada, Denmark, Belgium, and Norway – with many others involved in policing an arms embargo and enforcing a no-fly zone.

Gaddafi's air force had been grounded, Van Uhm said.

In London, the Ministry of Defence said RAF aircraft had struck targets in Libya on each of the past three days.

Tornado GR4 ground attack planes, flying from the Italian airbase of Gioia del Colle, hit a battle tank and two surface-to-air missile launchers near Sirte on Monday when they launched three anti-armour Brimstone missiles. The previous day, they fired Paveway IV bombs and Brimstone missiles to target a group of 10 armoured vehicles south of Sirte.

On Saturday, they fired Paveway IV missiles at two tanks in Sirte and also hit "several small ground attack aircraft" on an airfield near Misrata, the MoD said.

Two of the 10 Eurofighter/Typhoons based in Italy have returned to the UK. The Typhoons are not equipped to conduct ground attack operations.
Nato lacking strike aircraft for Libya campaign | World news | guardian.co.uk
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Last edited by roachboy; 04-05-2011 at 10:38 AM..
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