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aceventura3 · 03-30-2011, 07:47 AM

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Originally Posted by urville

Can does not mean will. I take it from this your not willing to take that risk. i wouldn't argue French, Dutch or Spanish intervention in the Revolutionary War. Even if it did prolong it, which I dont believe it did, I'm happy they did. I have no personal stake in anyone being wrong, I simply dont agree on the factor of the risk in this case... It is a case by case sort of thing though.

The "what ifs" can not be proved definitively one way or another. All we can do is look at the circumstantial evidence, that is why I chose the word can rather than will.

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The difference is that the rebels dont expect our help via troops, nor do they want it. Thats been made clear by them since the beginning.

There are ways to help other than troops but more than a no fly zone. Also, this is a dynamic situation - one day they may say X and the next they may say Y, based on conditions. And, my question remains the same, what are we willing to do? Has it been made clear to the rebels, the rest of the world, Kadafi, the American public? I believe each could listen to Obama and walk away with a different view of what we are willing to do. Is Obama doing this on purpose? Does he even know what he is willing to do, what his level of commitment is? Does he have the right to do this without the authority of Congress?

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No. Saying that ignores countless historical instances in which seemingly unwinnable battles have been won. This also omits that this is not just a no fly zone, does it not?

I enjoy good fairy-tales but I don't believe in fairy-tales. Unwindable battles by definition are unwindable. In the case of Libya and the rebels they need at least enough outside support to make it a fair fight.

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:29 PM ----------

As was expected, Kadafi is employing a strategy to minimize his military's exposure to the no fly zone. The rebels have no response, how are we going to help? Are we going to provide air support to advancing rebels? Are we going to provide weapons? Training? Other offensive assistance? Does anyone know? Are we simply going to play games with the rebels and then leave them high and dry? Obama needs to clarify what the hell his goal is and what he is willing to do!

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AJDABIYA, Libya – Moammar Gadhafi's ground forces recaptured a strategic oil town Wednesday as they made new inroads in beating back a rebel advance toward the capital Tripoli. Western powers kept up the pressure to force Gadhafi out with new airstrikes to weaken his military, hints that they may arm the opposition and intense negotiations behind the scenes to persuade Libya's leader of nearly 42 years to step down.

Airstrikes have neutralized Gadhafi's air force and pounded his army, but those ground forces remain far better armed, trained and organized than the opposition. Rebels have few weapons more powerful than rocket-propelled grenades and machine guns, and are no match for Gadhafi's tanks and longer-range heavy weapons.

That disparity was obvious as government forces pushed back rebels who had been closing in on the strategic city of Sirte, Gadhafi's hometown and a bastion of support for the longtime leader. Under heavy shelling, rebels retreated from Bin Jawwad on Tuesday and from the oil port of Ras Lanouf on Wednesday. Gadhafi's forces were shelling another oil port to the east, Brega, and some rebels were retreating farther still.

It looked like a mad scramble: Pickup trucks, with mattresses and boxes tied on, driving east at 100 mph (160 kilometers per hour).

Many regrouped east of Brega at the green, arching western gate of Ajdabiya, sharing water, dates and tuna sandwiches on a sandy, windswept plain next to two burned-out tanks and two burned-out cars from the airstrikes last week that drove Gadhafi's forces back.

"There's something strange about the way he attacked us today," said Abdullah Abdel-Jalil, a 31-year-old ambulance driver. "The Grad rockets, the tanks, the quantity of it all, he's stronger than we thought. It's way too intense."

NATO planes flew over the zone where the heaviest fighting was under way and an Associated Press reporter at the scene heard explosions, in contrast with Tuesday, when rebel fighters' pleas for airstrikes went unheeded. U.S. Marine Corps Capt. Clint Gebke, a spokesman for the NATO operation aboard the USS Mount Whitney, said he could not confirm any specific strikes but Western aircraft were engaging pro-Gadhafi forces.

Whatever air support NATO provided, however, did not appear to turn the situation at all to the rebels' advantage.

"We don't know why they're not here," said Moftah Mohammed, a 36-year-old rebel soldier. "Our forces are mainly on the side of the main road. We've heard Gadhafi's forces are pushing deep into the desert" in an attempt to head off rebel forces. "We don't want to be stuck in the middle of that."

Mohammed, however, thought loyalist forces would stop pursuing the rebels. "Gadhafi aims to take back Ras Lanouf and Brega because he's running out of oil. I think he'll stop there," he said.

As Gadhafi's forces push rebels toward their de-facto capital Benghazi, some 140 miles (220 kilometers) northeast of Brega, pressure is growing for NATO members and other supporters of the air campaign to do more.

Prime Minister David Cameron said Britain believes a legal loophole could allow nations to supply weapons to Libya's rebels — but stressed the U.K. has not decided whether it will offer assistance to the rebels.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said Tuesday that Washington also believes it would be legal to give the rebels weapons. As to whether the country would do so, President Barack Obama told NBC, "I'm not ruling it out, but I'm also not ruling it in."

France, one of the strongest backers of international intervention in Libya, believes arming rebels would require a new U.N. resolution; the existing one includes an arms embargo. But Foreign Minister Alain Juppe said, "We are ready to discuss it with our partners."

Under the U.N. resolution authorizing necessary measures to protect civilians, nations supplying weapons would need to be satisfied they would be used only to defend civilians — not to take the offensive to Gadhafi's forces.

Cameron's spokesman Steve Field said British and other diplomats were involved in negotiations with the rebel leadership in Benghazi partly to gauge if the opposition would be trustworthy allies.

"We are in the process of talking to those people and learning more about their intentions," Field told reporters.

Another possibility is to ramp up airstrikes, which so far have been conducted with the stated goal of helping civilians, rather than with helping the rebels advance. But even the airstrikes conducted so far have been criticized by world powers such as Germany and Russia.

Rebels retreat from Libya oil port under attack - Yahoo! News

You do not fight wars by committee.