I think it would be great to have a rational debate with you crumbbum, but herein lies the problem from my perspective: I realize that points I make whether it be historically or what I’m seeing now, I should provide sources. Its reasonable to think if I ever provided a source that comprised of Arab founders that it would have a bias to it, so I never did. I used historical records, maps, and other forms of media from the UN (before discrediting that entity remember it was that in which recognized Israel’s creation), British records, records straight from
http://www.archives.gov/welcome/index.html, neutral sources, and even and from Jewish funded sites. You quickly discredit these and intersect what you perceive as historical correction from either pro Zionist or Zionist sites. Any source that’s doesn’t fully agree with the expulsion of Palestinians they’re quickly discredited by you.
“Every factual statement I have said I can produce sources for. I am afraid that you have been misinformed about some things. Your post seemed sincere, and not as angry as previous ones, so I will respond civilly. You seem to believe what you are saying, but you may have learned some of these things wrong. I will go through.”
“While I wouldn't know where to find the best source, I do think that in all likelihood the party mostly likely to have the real numbers is the Israelis themselves, since they were the only ones keeping track of both the legal and illegal immigration.”
“You are merely spewing propaganda. You haven't stated any facts. I am aware of the UN record on Israel. That proves nothing. When it comes down to helping jews or getting oil contracts, there is usually no hesitation to ignore the truth.”
“Don't use the UN to learn about the reality of the region, the general consencus of the world governments is a not any sort of moral authority, if you look at history, and is dominated by petty squabbling and selfish motive, not the pursuit of real justice and truth.”
Even sources of Jewish funding that are against Zionism are labeled “small fringe groups” or show another side of whats going on that disfavors your view you state the same.
“Ok, you saw a program that interviewed some fringe Israelis, they were probably Kahanists. I'm sure there are some Israelis that think that way, but they are an extreme minority.”
“This makes them a pretty fringe group, that has gotten a great deal of media attention. I assume they are legit- many Israeli leftist groups though are funded by the EU, which makes their sincerity somewhat questionable.”
“About news today- you should be aware that most western news sources rely heavily on Palestinian sources. Journalists are frequently intimidated and given threats over publishing anything that makes the palestinians look bad.”
You truly expect someone to believe this? I think neo-Nazis stating the holocaust never happened are idiots, but some actually believe that
I know you won’t see a problem with this approach, but does anyone else? Maybe I truly am brainwashed. I’m American with a Nordic bloodline; so I know what would happen if I walked down Gaza Strip if anyone caught a look at me. This doesn’t make what’s happened and continues to happen right.
Once again I have to post some statements you made to others that stand out in my head that make it difficult for me to debate you. Its not a smear against, I assume your proud of everything you state.
”I don't have the patience to go through your claims scholastically, again, since I have already presented valid points that you have ignored. I will post a link here though- it is from the zionist organization of America- but that is not important”
That’s my point crumbbum its vitally important. There are even people of Jewish descent that disagree with the Zionist philosophy. From what I observe your taking what is their doctrine as gospel. If Im wrong about that; name one thing that you disagree with them about.
”Oh, and you're right, there is no such thing as a Palestinian people (in terms of them being a separate and distinct nation from other arabs). A palestinian, by the UN definition, is any arab that is descended from someone who lived west of the Jordan before 1948 for 2 years or more. That's it.
Hmm. . . .it strikes me a being a little odd and greatly contradictory that you would give a definition from an entity you continually state is full of lies and corrupt
While a very small minority of the palestinians are actually descended from arabs who had been in the land a long time, the vast majority are descended from arab migrant workers and laborers who went to the land seeking employment, after Jewish immigration, and their development of the land, started creating economic opportunity.” Oh that’s a nice little supplement, you wonder why theres aggression? Is this actually being taught somewhere?
"These people were not native to the land. The palestinians are made up of egyptian, syrian, jordanian, and lebanese arabs. They do not have a unique history, and they never identified themselves as a distinct people until after 1967. They never demanded statehood while Egypt occupied Gaza, or Jordan the West bank. Arafat himself is an egyptian. I will refer to "the palestinians", even though the term originally was used for the jews. They are indeed, however, not a distinct people. Sorry if my "zionist rhetoric" is too much for you, or deflates any beloved fantasies about history.”
IMO The following rationalizations do nothing but damage your intentions of convincing me of a populous the rest of the world knows was there, was actually not.
“There is more than enough available land in the vast arab world for such a state, that no one would miss, that would not cause a war.”
“Since it was the Palestinians who walked away from the peace talks, and who have overwhelmingly supported truly sickening terrorism against innocent people, I think that it is their side that should pack up and leave. Israel is less than 1% of the landmass in the middle east.”
“Why exactly do you think the Palestinian arabs deserve a state? What about the Tibetan Buddhists? What about the Kurds? There are enough people in the world that have suffered far more, and have infinitely less blood on their hands, that could use a state.”
“In your opinion, why were the Palestinian refugees left in camps for 55 years? Considering the vast sums of money poured into the camps from the US, EU, UN, and Israel (but not the arab world, incidentally), why haven't living conditions improved?”
“The palestinian refugees are the only refugees in history that have not been absorbed by any country(they could easily have been absorbed into arab countries, the language and culture is the same, and there is more than enough vacant land in the arab world). It is not Israel's fault that the Palestinian refugees exist today- it wasn't their fault that they were created.”
“Again, why the hell does no one care about the 20 year old Syrian occupation of Lebanon, which brutalizes their citizens and denies the Lebanese their freedom?”
“If Israel is evil, and robbed the Palestinians of their homeland, and is an enemy, why do so many Palestinians depend on employment in Israel? Why are 20% of Israelis arabs?”
“In 1948 the State of Israel absorbed nearly 700,000 refugees from the arab world. Why didn't anyone absorb the Palestinian arab refugees?”
Why did the Palestinians never demand a state or even autonomy before 1967 when the Egyptians and Jordanians controlled the territories?
If the Palestinians have a historical tradition, then why is it that the Jews in Palestine were referred to as "Palestinians" before 1948? Do you even realize what your saying in this statement
Double standards one sided views. . . . IMO
”Sharon was a general, and has spent his life defending his people from the enemies that they are surrounded by. He was also heavily involved in the peace with Egypt.”
“Arafat spent his life killing innocent people. Sharon spent his defending his country from those that would destroy it and massacre its inhabitants.”
“You quote ben-Gurion talking about the necessity of displacing arabs, and of gaining more land. He also said that he hoped the british would do this. He may have, in his heart, hoped for such things, but the important thing is that it wasn't done- the Jews in Palestine didn't displace any arabs with force, they purchased the land, often at excorbitant prices. In the course of the 48 war some arabs were displaced- more fled upon the urging of arab leaders. The ones that were displaced were displaced when their villages were enemy bases, or when the location was militarily critical. The refugees from those villages were still not forced to leave Palestine. Obviously, many arabs remained, and they became Israeli-arabs. The refugees that fled (again, 67% of which never saw an Israeli soldier) were then forced to remain in refugee camps instead of being absorbed in any arab country, where they have remained until this day. They had been urged, and bullied, to leave by arab leaders, and then completely abandoned.”
“You mention massacres on both sides- the only massacre carried out by jews that I am aware of was at Deir Yassin- and that has been since exploited by propagandists to smear
Israel. It doesn’t matter if other sources show this to be a lie. None of them are Zionist records. There are records of entire villages wiped out; right down to records of their names (men, women, and children, and way of death)
The following are generalized statements based on what Ive learned, seen, and experienced for myself; I see to be untrue.
“The palestinians don't, despite the brainwashing have any tangible connection to the land, with some exceptions.”
“No arab property was ever stolen or built on, they were meticulous about this.”
“And in fact there are far, far more illegal arab settlements that no one ever speaks about.”
“I am also afraid that 9/11 and Palestinian terror are very much connected.”
“Also, the region is not historically all muslim at all. It happened to have been controlled by the Ottomans for the last 800 years- but there was always a Jewish presence in the land.”
“Palestinian soveignty would be a disaster, for them, for Israel, and for the rest of the world.”
Statements of pure irony because of the source
"I am saying that it exists, but that you have not dug deep enough into the history and reality of the events over there to understand what these problems really stem from. If you were intellectually honest, and actually knew some history, we could discuss this. But I will not waste my breath indefinitely shooting down ignorant statements, generalizations, false assumptions and lies."
"Your rant about the oppression of the Palestinians is uncalled for. It cannot be compared to a massacre, as no one is trying to exterminate them. "Destroying homes, infrastructure, as well as enforcing harsh curfews which don't allow people to work or go to school" - first, there was never much infrastructure to begin with, and infrastructure is not targeted. The IDF does a huge amount humanitarian assistance in the territories that you never hear about." Another gem
You stated before I was trying to smear you, no that’s simply not true. In every conversation I’ve attempted to understand why I see you conversing the way you do. I post these things because if its me that is off course perhaps others can bring me back on.
What is your assessment of this person?
www.bh.org.il/Names/POW/Goldmann.asp
You stated Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg is reguarded my a majority of Israelis as crazy.
Is that why he headed the Kever Yossev Yeshiva? That doesn’t sound like they regarded his views as crazy to me, but it’s probably a small fringe group.