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Originally Posted by debaser
I think the word you are looking fo is shitty, not corrupt. States act in their own rational self interest, and perhaps the US and China feel that it is not in theirs to participate in the climate summit. This may be a shocker, but countries do not always do what they say, or say what they do...
Now if you could show me a memo that demonstrated that the administration acted only after accepting a payoff from the oil industry or somesuch, I will join you with torches at the gate...
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I'm not getting in a semantic debate over the word 'scandal', debaser. The two largest polluters in the world secretly teamed up, something relatively uncommon, to undermine a global initiative that could have consequences for hundreds of years. That's a big deal whether you understand and accept climate science or not. BTW, Shell has infiltrated and has significant control of the Nigerian government, a Texas company pimped little boys to stone Afghani police, etc. etc. etc. but these aren't the point.
This is the point, debaser:
This is wikileaks. Wikileaks is a check to balance out power that's wildly one-sided in this world. You and I have almost no power whatsoever, but because of organizations like wikileaks, we get some of the power that's taken from us back. They're giving us the tools to determine if the power we're giving up should be given up, so we can decide with all of the information if the government or corporations really are working in the best interest of the people. In that way, its truly democratic.
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Originally Posted by debaser
And undermines it.
Do we overclassify? You bet. I have to deal with it every day, and it is a major pain in the ass. Is it for the purposes of denying you your rights? Absolutely not.
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No offense, but I think you're being naive. Classified documents about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan would have meant a solid Kerry win in 2004. Don't fool yourself: those in power use secrecy as a way to maintain and grow their power at your expense.
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Originally Posted by debaser
Now the system above needs work, and there are abuses by those who wish to hide their malfeasance. That being said, do you really think that the answer to the problem is some shithead with an axe to grind simply dumping a ton of documents onto the internet? I think not.
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Wikileaks (not Assange) is hosting information leaked by someone else. It's a media outlet. They've demonstrated they have no axe to grind and the documents they've 'dumped' have all been vetted by experts and the offer was even made to have the US government go through them just to be sure. That request was denied.
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Originally Posted by debaser
You also bring up democracy. You need to realize that for you to have your utopian demopcracy, a lot of other people are going to have to suffer. For example I present the paper regarding US bombing of Yemeni targets and Ali Abdullah Saleh's boozing.
Saleh is a shitty leader. But what is the alternative? Anger over this cable could lead to his removal which will strengthen AQAP, probably to the point where nominal control of the country will slip to them. Now Will, I assume you do not want violent fundamentalists running Yemen, nor would anyone in Yemen if they really thought about it. Sure, no music or smiling or fun is all well and good, but when they start hanging women for talking to non-relatives I start to draw the line (unless they are accusing Julian Assange of rape, in that case the bitches had it coming).
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I hate to break it to you, but this was all fairly well known long before the leak. The cable is a bit more public here in the states than, say, al Jazeera or Haaretz, but really people pretending like this is a big deal stinks of red herring.
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Originally Posted by debaser
Meh, I'm rambling. I guess what it comes down to is this. Countries need secrets just like they need armys. If they don't have them, some other country that does will destroy them and take what is theirs.
Are we to trust a criminal (Australian/Ex-hacker) to determine what secrets we as a country keep? Do you really think this will lead to a more transparent government?
I think it will lead to a far more draconian classification system that will not only prevent the proper dissemination of information to the public, but hamper the very agencies that make use of it legitimately on a day to day basis...
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You're allowing the complete fuckwad morons on Fox News to blur the reality of this situation. They're trying to make it about Assange, but he's basically just a figurehead. The dump has nothing at all to do with Assange aside from the fact he's one cog of many in the machine of wikileaks. Assange is not a criminal, he's not an egomaniac, and he's not the issue. The issue is the documents.
I cannot say this enough: ignore Orly, Beck, Libaugh, Hannity and their ilk. This isn't a right/left thing, they're corrupt liars and anyone who listens to them will end up with a warped and incorrect understanding of reality. Ignore them.