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Originally Posted by Fun Forum Rant
And the ugliest truth imo about our attitudes towards sexual openness and not being committed to relationships is that it seems to hurt women much more than men.
It seems like every other girl in her late 20s / early 30s is dying to settle down with a good guy and start a family, and more and more, guys are highly resistant to that - why should they commit for life (or realistically, 5-10 years) when they can potentially have fun in the dating world for much longer? Basically, the woman devotes the best years of her life hoping desperately that her man will settle down, propose to her, so she can live happily ever after with some semblance of security in this crazy world, and the man knows that even if he dumps her anytime before late mid 30s early 40s, he can still go out and date young, hot women and live a dating lifestyle even well into his 50s sometimes. Many women don't have that option. Even if men are not rich and not attractive, they can (and often do) just find some women looking to settle down and tell her the kinds of things she needs to hear (vague talk of future, etc) and then bam, he's got another girl he can string along for 2-3 years of good sex and then dump her when he gets bored. It seems like more and more, men have no qualms at all about this kind of sexual manipulation of women. After all, they've been practicing lying their way into a girl's pants ever since they were 16.
Women that want to have kids have it even tougher. Unless you go full stops, many have a hell of a time getting a man to settle down and have kids during prime birthing years. More and more, women are putting off childbirth to work on their careers, to wait for men to grow up and become financially stable so they can think family with him instead of just sex and fun. Which is fine as long as it's an informed decision, but I feel like women are not often aware of the full story. I think a lot of women think that after 35 fertility drops off a bit, but that's only the beginning. First of all, ask any obgyn, women over 35 are automatically high-risk pregnancies. They need c-section more often, they have pregnancy and birth complications much more often, and their risk of birth defects is through the roof compared to women in their 20s. I heard an obgyn say that risk of down's syndrome (severe mental retardation) skyrockets after 35 and especially 40. What's even more disturbing is that people sometimes deliberately lie about these risks, I suspect, because it interferes with their social agenda regarding the place of women in America. And I'm not saying we should go back to little house on the prairie or anything, but I'm saying the world has changed so much so fast and we automatically think we have the answers and are taking the right steps, but I see a lot of dysfunction that we're choosing to ignore because it means maybe we made some serious mistakes along the way.
Even when it comes to divorce, let's not pretend that a single mom with a child + child support is in an equal position to a man that simply has a child support payment. Again, when it comes to this, men get to easily ditch their families and move on, even leave the country and start over if their child support is too cumbersome. The man knows that his barriers to enter a new life and a new relationship are much much lower than a women's barriers.
So for people like [user name] below that like to gush about how great women have it now compared to men, yes in some ways, women have it much better than before in some areas, but to me they simply traded some problems in for others while men still have it great, or perhaps even greater then they've ever had it. Men basically traded in male legal privilege for unprecedented male sexual privilege.
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sure a lot of men enjoy having that and naturally incline towards monogamy. I consider myself one of them. Certainly if every single man and every single woman in the world fit into my description, then we would have massive pandemic social dysfunction instead of merely noticeable, troublesome social dysfunction.
Did I actually attempt to generalize all people? No, of course not. Do you think when people describe the world of 200 years ago as women being property in loveless marriages, they are generalizing all women back then? Funny how you don't rush to point out that there were men that enjoyed having an intimate relationship in their lives 200 years ago. Perhaps that group of men doesn't fit as neatly into your social agenda, a defense of those practices that have created new problems for many women while freeing of them from other problems.
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yes, I'm making generalizations, but don't you think saying "some men like having strong intimate relationships" is also a generalization and oversimplification that sweeps a real problem under the rug? Or do you really think the fact that some men like relationships means women have no right to complain that a new deck of cards has been stacked against them?
and I'm sorry you don't think men get to speak about the problems women face. I certainly don't try to silence women speaking out about men's problems... also, I would have no idea about what women know or don't know about fertility after 35 except that I've heard this from many women over and over about how the media message to put off having kids conspicuously ignores that these choices have real consequences. I never claimed to present any data, only my own experiences and the experiences of my friends. I recognize my own sexual privilege and I recognize the disadvantage it places on some women, but I don't pretend that women have no problem at all simply because some men like relationships.
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I don't have data - this isn't a social phenomenon I'm studying or anything. I admit I'm bringing a personal, biased perspective that I can only really explain by sharing my anecdotes and generalizing, but I do think I'm accurately identifying a real social problem that exists today as a relatively recent problem born out of relatively recent social changes in our societies. I'm not saying they're irreparable and I'm not saying they are worse problems than the ones we left behind. Certainly, the condition of women is better in many ways than it has ever been, and I'm all for that. I just also think we also left behind some of the attitudes that helped build families and keep them together.
It seems like every other guy in his early 30s who is out there making money does not want to settle down. They are living the good life, swinging, enjoying as many women as they can for as long as they can and have no intention of limiting themselves to one woman. A lot of these guys have no qualms at all about stringing along a girlfriend who they have little intention of marrying while also sleeping with whoever they want on the side. I don't think these are a few anomalies - I think it's a direct product of a pervasive pickup artist culture that encourages men to manipulate women's insecurities in a perverse goal of portraying an image of alpha male. Yes I know a ton of decent family men. Good on them. Those are my friends. I don't typically associate with scumbag guys that only put on the appearance of faithfulness and integrity while lying and manipulating women that are looking for a life partner. However, I know too many that do that anyway, or at least don't think it's any kind of big deal. From a young age, men are subjected to this sort of macho culture of sexual conquest and many guys seem to never grow out of it.
So I'm not saying that men are all driven to avoid monogamous relationships, but I am saying that many men do it, partly because of a culture of sexual conquest, partly because of media messages that reinforce it, and (where I started this conversation) partly as a result of unprecedented availability of women's bodies. Once upon a time, you had to commit to a woman for life before you took her to your bedroom, and that commitment was your bond. While it does cause a lot of problems, I respect the integrity behind that. And in the dating world today, there is still a facade of finding a life partner, but I think a lot of men don't take that seriously while a lot of women do - yes, I'm heavily generalizing, but there really does seems to be a lot more 30-something guys playing the field than 30-something women playing the field. The men high-five each other and admire each other's many sexual conquests, while women are left alone, even tragically mocked for crying, "you told me we would be together forever!" The man's reaction is often as callous as, "who takes those kinds of words seriously?"
Forgive me for prying, but you do have kids and appear to be in a happy, loving relationship. Good for you. I am in a similar life right now and I'm happy and grateful for what I have, but I do feel like a lot of women regret not focusing on settling down in their 20s, and it seems to be happening more and more.
I settled down earlier, but that's because I always wanted to get married and have a family. I'm one of the guys you would describe as enjoying having a strong intimate relationship in their lives. I'd like to think I would have been like this in 2010 or 1810.
Despite that, this is somewhat personal for me. I have a sister, early 30s, would love to have settled down and started a family by now but she first went to medical school, then a 5 year residency, now starting a one year fellowship. Sure she is set financially and academically, but she's quickly running out of time to find a decent guy who is genuine, honest, not playing the field, while still remotely in the same intellectual ballpark as her. Does a guy her age feel the same kind of time pressure? Not even close. He's got at least another 5-10 years of playing the field and even more if he so chooses, at the end of which he could probably marry some girl in her mid 20s ready to have kids, but if my sister wanted put up with that or live a similar lifestyle, it has serious implications for her ability to have kids and a family. When she was 22, applying for medical school and making other serious life decisions, that information was not as readily available to her. She might have taken more serious steps to have kids during school or before if she knew then that waiting so long to think about family would mean sifting through drastically increased incidences of douchebaggery in men as well as drastically increased risk of birth defects.
I also can't help but overhear the many Monday-morning tales of the dating world shared among my female 30-40something coworkers who are divorced (and/or perpetually single) and dealing with jerks playing the field, stringing them along, then suddenly deciding at age 38 they want to grow up, settle down, and go and marry some 26 y/o girl that wants a family. By and large, women don't get to make that same decision. Inequality at its finest.
I don't really think I'm being all that patronizing either. These basic questions like pregnancy and child-rearing responsibilities affect every part of women's lives as well as women's ability to equally participate in the workforce (I'm a lawyer, and you can count the women that have had kids and made partner). Indra Nooyi, famed CEO of Pepsi, is quite clear on the discrepancy - you can basically choose to be a good mom or have a good career, not both.
I guess if I could tl;dr this post, I would simply say, women's lib has been fantastic for about a thousand reasons, but let's be real that many family decisions, relationship decisions, and the dating world generally, has the ugly unintended ability to hurt women more than men. Now that I scroll up, that was my first sentence in this thread and I guess I still feel the same way. What really set me off was [user name] saying that a common relationship pitfall is to think that the relationship is permanent. That really pissed me off. I mean, we know that's what the dating world has become, but nobody likes to admit that when [user name] says that, he's mostly saying that to women. The dating world as it is today is unprecedented sexual privilege for men. I would hate that someone tell my sister that she should put up with him for 2-3 years and if she's lucky, he'll marry her instead of dumping her consequence-free for another girl. For her there are real consequences, and men are increasingly unwilling to own up to them.
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